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Re: Chicago--[D] Update Version8 w/Small map [Pg 8]

Postby the.killing.44 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:30 pm

For 1v1 games, the territories are still split 3 ways, the 3rd being neutral. We tend to avoid having starting tert numbers that can be dropped Rd. 1 (like 6 here, easily dropped to 5 with 1 tert taken). Perhaps we can find something to code neutral; I'll come back for a better comment. Until then, keep up the stellar work ;)

.44
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Re: Chicago--[D] Update Version8 w/Small map [Pg 8]

Postby Scott-Land on Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:31 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:For 1v1 games, the territories are still split 3 ways, the 3rd being neutral. We tend to avoid having starting tert numbers that can be dropped Rd. 1 (like 6 here, easily dropped to 5 with 1 tert taken). Perhaps we can find something to code neutral; I'll come back for a better comment. Until then, keep up the stellar work ;)

.44


Hehee- duh. That's right... neutrals. Works better of course.
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Re: Chicago--[D] Update Version8 w/Small map [Pg 8]

Postby Blitzaholic on Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:50 pm

Scott-Land wrote:
Blitzaholic wrote:Wow Scotty, excellent work for a first version, ad the graphics are outstanding.

3 Questions though


1. where is wrigley park? or did you not want that with chicago map?

2. why red, blue and orange colors for train bonus? why not red, blue, green?

3. how many territories? 55 or so?


Thx Blitzy...

1. Chicago has so many fields with the Bulls, Cubs, White Socks, and the Bears. I suppose Cubs is tradition. How were you thinking of incorporating the stadium into the map? To answer your question, it's in northern Chicago in Lakeview.

2. Those colors are the actual el rail lines-- 3 of 8 I think. The Green line doesn't cross the territories I wanted for game play.

3. It's 56 total territories. I did the numbers for 54,55, and 57 and asked George's advice and we thought 56 was the best option. The other amounts gave way to a ton of neutrals.

Starting terrs - deployment
2 players: 28 - 14
3 players: 18 - 6 + 2 Neutrals
4 players: 14 - 4
5 players : 11 - 3 + 1 Neutral
6 players: 9 - 3 + 2 Neutrals
7 players: 8 - 3
8 players: 7 - 3

Also Firstholliday brought up a point.... thinks there should be another small bonus somewhere. Perhaps what about adding Lakeview and Lincoln Park to The Loop bonus that'll I'll make 9 or so. Then I'd have 4 terrs + 1 rail station in North Side bonus @ 3. I've already decided to change West Loop @ 4. Maybe I'll make a quick visual and poll it.



oh yeah, good thinking, (another small bonus or 2 would be nice addition) and as far as the stadium of wrigley, I guess you dont need it
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:03 pm

*Graphical changes- used a different brush for Calumet River. Read somewhere that they said it wasn't clean. Made Chicago River a little smaller to see Loop boundaries a litte better.
*Game play changes

1- FirstHolliday suggested that we may need an additional small bonus. Couple of options, one, I took two territories from North Side and added them to The Loop bonus making North Side smaller. Also, I did a different one, taking Albany Park and added it O'hare bonus.

2. Neph suggested that I create an impass for Far South Side making it accessible to two territories as the bonus suggests. It also opened up Ashburn to be adjacent to three territories instead of just one. Killed two birds with that one as George didn't like Ashburn to be so isolated.

Neph also mentioned something about Loop territory-- if it was part of Orange Line bonus. I could see how that's confusing because that's where all the rails cross. It got me thinking if I should make that terr a Rail Station as well, considering in reality it is the heart of Chicago, and if so should it be part of which line or ALL? In the meanwhile, I moved the territory line over a bit to help clarify.

3. Readjusted bonus amounts of other bonuses as well.

4. Removed Roger's Park terr and added one to O'hare-- Edison Park.

Very nice suggestions fellas-- million thanks.

Poll added.

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Option 1: North Side / 4 Terr + Rail, +3 Bonus
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Option 2: North Side / 3 Terr + Rail +2 Bonus
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby murphy16 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:16 pm

Very nice map Scott, can't wait to play it. :D
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Gutshots on Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:17 pm

When do you think you'll be done?
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:00 pm

Gutshots wrote:When do you think you'll be done?


Your guess is good as mine-- I'll have an update here in a day or two. Hopefully we can drag Incand's ass in here and give me a GP stamp. :D
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Georgerx7di on Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:02 am

Option 2 by far. 2 looks awesome. I was even thinking of suggesting a +1 bonus on that little loop territory, but then that would lead to unbalanced game play, (somebody drops it). Another choice would be 57 territs with the loop territ being a +1 bonus, but start neutral. Maybe something small like 1 or 2 neutral armies on it, so it would be put into play fast, but nobody gets it for free right from the drop. Just a thought though.

I definitely like option 2 the best though. Much more open. Eliminating someone in standard escalating games is hard enough on a bigger map, best to have some mobility.
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:04 am

Georgerx7di wrote:Option 2 by far. 2 looks awesome. I was even thinking of suggesting a +1 bonus on that little loop territory, but then that would lead to unbalanced game play, (somebody drops it). Another choice would be 57 territs with the loop territ being a +1 bonus, but start neutral. Maybe something small like 1 or 2 neutral armies on it, so it would be put into play fast, but nobody gets it for free right from the drop. Just a thought though.

I definitely like option 2 the best though. Much more open. Eliminating someone in standard escalating games is hard enough on a bigger map, best to have some mobility.


I worked on the Loop terr yesterday... it's not going to be a +1 but it'll be a crucial terr to hold.
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Peter Gibbons on Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:19 am

In the two new options, where the river has been extended north, are the Loop and West Loop still supposed to be adjacent territories? It's hard to tell because it looks like they connect north of the blue el train (and the river doesn't extend north of the line). But I'm assuming they aren't supposed to connect, otherwise there doesn't seem to be much point to extending the river in the first place.

I know there's not much room to work with there, but I think it needs to be a little clearer because when the map gets played, people won't know how it developed.
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:19 am

Peter Gibbons wrote:In the two new options, where the river has been extended north, are the Loop and West Loop still supposed to be adjacent territories? It's hard to tell because it looks like they connect north of the blue el train (and the river doesn't extend north of the line). But I'm assuming they aren't supposed to connect, otherwise there doesn't seem to be much point to extending the river in the first place.

I know there's not much room to work with there, but I think it needs to be a little clearer because when the map gets played, people won't know how it developed.


Those 3 maps weren't updates-- more of a visual to see the North Side bonus options. But you're right, Loop territory has had issues since day one. My next update will have all the rivers/lakes with the same style; something more like Calumet . I'm gonna take out the rails going into the Loop territory to create some more room to see the borders/impass. I tried a magnifying box for that area and wasn't too satisfied with the results. We'll see what it looks like with no rails inside the territory. Hopefully it'll be the last adjustment I'll have to make there.
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:21 am

Not many seemed to like North Side as smaller bonus 7-3 against new bonus up there... -- well not many voted :lol: but I get the gist of it. Lot of graphical changes and since North Side didn't go too well, I cut up east/west of South Side.

Army circles are 20x20. Single digit numbers appear aligned but double 8s are 1 pixel off east/west.

* Changed lakes/rivers to one similar style. . Added another bridge in Loop terr. ( no game play change).
* Game play changes: Took out rails in Loop territory and added 1 connection station-- big game play change for that territory along with new SE Side Bonus.
* Game play changes: Four terr, 2 access points via 3 attack route bonus. Changed helipad from Hegewich to South Deering.
* Game play changes: Decreased North Side by a terr and added Lincoln Park to The Loop bonus. Added Woodlawn to South Side bonus.
* Game play changes: Impass from Wicker Park ---> Garfield Park. Impass from Beverly ---> Gresham.
* Game play changes; New rails, rail stops, rail stations.
-- Clear that Logan Square attacks ----> West Loop & Austin, v.v. ? I sure hope so...
* Game play change: West Loop converted to Territory Rail Station.
* New rail legend ( Does it have to be that lengthy or can I leave room for interpretation instead ).
* Misc graphics-- antenna on Sears Tower; decreased size of Impass signs, Chicago Text/Font, etc.

Jeesh that's a lot of stuff....

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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9: New Game Play ( Bonus ) [ Pg 9]

Postby Risky_Stud on Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:58 pm

don't mean to put gas on the fire, but i'm confused by 1 thing?

in the upper left corner it say's airport's and helipads cannot
attack each other, but down belowe that it say's 2-way attack
between both. so which is it or is there a trick i'm unfamiliar with?
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Georgerx7di on Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:00 pm

Scott-Land wrote:Not many seemed to like North Side as smaller bonus 7-3 against new bonus up there... -- well not many voted :lol: but I get the gist of it. Lot of graphical changes and since North Side didn't go too well, I cut up east/west of South Side.

Army circles are 20x20. Single digit numbers appear aligned but double 8s are 1 pixel off east/west.

* Changed lakes/rivers to one similar style. . Added another bridge in Loop terr. ( no game play change).
* Game play changes: Took out rails in Loop territory and added 1 connection station-- big game play change for that territory along with new SE Side Bonus.
* Game play changes: Four terr, 2 access points via 3 attack route bonus. Changed helipad from Hegewich to South Deering.
* Game play changes: Decreased North Side by a terr and added Lincoln Park to The Loop bonus. Added Woodlawn to South Side bonus.
* Game play changes: Impass from Wicker Park ---> Garfield Park. Impass from Beverly ---> Gresham.
* Game play changes; New rails, rail stops, rail stations.
-- Clear that Logan Square attacks ----> West Loop & Austin, v.v. ? I sure hope so...
* Game play change: West Loop converted to Territory Rail Station.
* New rail legend ( Does it have to be that lengthy or can I leave room for interpretation instead ).
* Misc graphics-- antenna on Sears Tower; decreased size of Impass signs, Chicago Text/Font, etc.

Jeesh that's a lot of stuff....

Image



I liked the smaller bonus, that's why i voted for option two. Let's be honest, in dubs games, you only go for the small bonuses, unless its freestyle speed. So the smaller bonus would be much better, people would go after it. The bigger bonuses on any map, (eg NA and Asia on classic map) never come into play. The smaller bonus is the better option.

ps. I think red wins this game :lol:
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Re: Chicago--[D] Gameplay Discussion [Poll Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:18 pm

Risky_Stud wrote:don't mean to put gas on the fire, but i'm confused by 1 thing?

in the upper left corner it say's airport's and helipads cannot
attack each other, but down belowe that it say's 2-way attack
between both. so which is it or is there a trick i'm unfamiliar with?


It's because Airports can't attack Helipads..... thats why. lol. :lol: 2 way attacks are from airport to airport and helipad to helipad. It's quite difficult to fit that all inside the sign.

I'll put that on my list.

Georgerx7di wrote:
Scott-Land wrote:Not many seemed to like North Side as smaller bonus 7-3 against new bonus up there... -- well not many voted :lol: but I get the gist of it. Lot of graphical changes and since North Side didn't go too well, I cut up east/west of South Side.

Army circles are 20x20. Single digit numbers appear aligned but double 8s are 1 pixel off east/west.

* Changed lakes/rivers to one similar style. . Added another bridge in Loop terr. ( no game play change).
* Game play changes: Took out rails in Loop territory and added 1 connection station-- big game play change for that territory along with new SE Side Bonus.
* Game play changes: Four terr, 2 access points via 3 attack route bonus. Changed helipad from Hegewich to South Deering.
* Game play changes: Decreased North Side by a terr and added Lincoln Park to The Loop bonus. Added Woodlawn to South Side bonus.
* Game play changes: Impass from Wicker Park ---> Garfield Park. Impass from Beverly ---> Gresham.
* Game play changes; New rails, rail stops, rail stations.
-- Clear that Logan Square attacks ----> West Loop & Austin, v.v. ? I sure hope so...
* Game play change: West Loop converted to Territory Rail Station.
* New rail legend ( Does it have to be that lengthy or can I leave room for interpretation instead ).
* Misc graphics-- antenna on Sears Tower; decreased size of Impass signs, Chicago Text/Font, etc.

Jeesh that's a lot of stuff....

Image



I liked the smaller bonus, that's why i voted for option two. Let's be honest, in dubs games, you only go for the small bonuses, unless its freestyle speed. So the smaller bonus would be much better, people would go after it. The bigger bonuses on any map, (eg NA and Asia on classic map) never come into play. The smaller bonus is the better option.

ps. I think red wins this game :lol:


Ya I know George but 1 step forward seems to be 2 steps backwards. I added a small bonus but wouldn't mind another one up north somewhere. Hopefully I'll see a way without having to add / subtract more terrs. Maybe I'll chop up Midway / NearWest Side.

The vote was 2-1 in favor of no bonus up there albeit it was only 9 votes. I'm not sure if it was a game play decision or if they just didn't like the way it looked. I wasn't too excited about the way it looked myself.
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9: New Game Play ( Bonus ) [ Pg 9]

Postby MrBenn on Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:41 pm

Am I right in thinking that some territories only consist of the train stations?

ie. Jefferson Park - the territory has an El Train army circle, but no standard territory circle... Does this mean that Edison Park can attack Jefferson Park (and vice versa) or not?

The other thing to observe is that the train lines are obscured by the trees/parks - and this is bound ton confuse some people - especially as those trees are on the legend as impassable...
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9: New Game Play ( Bonus ) [ Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:16 pm

MrBenn wrote:Am I right in thinking that some territories only consist of the train stations?

ie. Jefferson Park - the territory has an El Train army circle, but no standard territory circle... Does this mean that Edison Park can attack Jefferson Park (and vice versa) or not?

The other thing to observe is that the train lines are obscured by the trees/parks - and this is bound ton confuse some people - especially as those trees are on the legend as impassable...


It's in the Rail Legend-- three types of rail stations.
1. Can only attack other stations. Are two; JP and Lakeview.
2. Attack other rail stations and territory it occupies.
3. Acts like a terr along eith being a rail station. Attacks other adjacent terrs and rail stations.

Jefferson Park does have a territory army circle. It's at the northern tip. Suppose I could squeeze it down by the name if absolutely necessary.

Tree lines along the rail I can and did change.

I worked on the bonus textures again.......and bonus regions.
* Added another small bonus.
-- 5 Terrs but only 2 defending territories-- access points + 1 rail station. Assigned it as a 3.
* Added 1 terr and merged 3 territories of Midway's with South Side.
* Eliminated "2-Way" used arrows instead for Airport/Heli attack routes.

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong for my 88 Army #s ?!
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9: New Game Play ( Bonus ) [ Pg 9]

Postby Peter Gibbons on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:21 am

Scott-Land wrote:Jefferson Park does have a territory army circle. It's at the northern tip. Suppose I could squeeze it down by the name if absolutely necessary.
I know you're getting inundated with advice (which, by the way, I think is the sign of a great map that people are very interested in), but I suggested this very thing a few pages ago, and it likely just got missed.

I think, now that the army circles are more transparent, this issue is even more important. Given the fact that some territories do JUST have the train stations, people might miss army circles in territories where it's not just the station; Jefferson Park is the most obvious instance (the only other potential one I see is Austin, but I think that's fine) because the army circle is in such a weird geographic extreme. It probably won't work so easily on the most recent versions, but--at a point that you had that area at before--there was enough room to move the "Jefferson Park" text up to be even with the "Norwood Park" text, and then the Jefferson Park army circle could be squeezed between the text and the train station. Again, I'm not sure if that's a viable option now, but I do still believe something needs to be done.

While we're on the subject of rail stations and gameplay... is there any reason why Jefferson Park and Lakeview stations can't attack the territories in which they reside? I'm assuming that the territories can attack the stations, no? So there are two one-way attacks that are then created, right? Maybe I'm in the minority, but that seems to add an unnecessary layer of complexity and potentially confusion.

Hope that doesn't come off as too critical. I really do love this map. Have been very excited that this and Vancouver have been moving along recently... see them both as potential favorites.

EDIT: just want to say that I prefer the color scheme in v9.1, though I do think that the army circles might be too transparent
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9: New Game Play ( Bonus ) [ Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:25 pm

Peter Gibbons wrote:
Scott-Land wrote:Jefferson Park does have a territory army circle. It's at the northern tip. Suppose I could squeeze it down by the name if absolutely necessary.
I know you're getting inundated with advice (which, by the way, I think is the sign of a great map that people are very interested in), but I suggested this very thing a few pages ago, and it likely just got missed.

I think, now that the army circles are more transparent, this issue is even more important. Given the fact that some territories do JUST have the train stations, people might miss army circles in territories where it's not just the station; Jefferson Park is the most obvious instance (the only other potential one I see is Austin, but I think that's fine) because the army circle is in such a weird geographic extreme. It probably won't work so easily on the most recent versions, but--at a point that you had that area at before--there was enough room to move the "Jefferson Park" text up to be even with the "Norwood Park" text, and then the Jefferson Park army circle could be squeezed between the text and the train station. Again, I'm not sure if that's a viable option now, but I do still believe something needs to be done.

Hope that doesn't come off as too critical. I really do love this map. Have been very excited that this and Vancouver have been moving along recently... see them both as potential favorites.

EDIT: just want to say that I prefer the color scheme in v9.1, though I do think that the army circles might be too transparent


Not too critical at all-- I welcome and appreciate all feedback. I hadn't ignored your comment about Jefferson Park a few pages back. I did try on several occasions to relocate it where it wouldn't be so broken up-- just to no avail. I ended up having to reposition the blue rail line ( which I didn't want to use as a solution.)


Peter Gibbons wrote:While we're on the subject of rail stations and gameplay... is there any reason why Jefferson Park and Lakeview stations can't attack the territories in which they reside? I'm assuming that the territories can attack the stations, no? So there are two one-way attacks that are then created, right? Maybe I'm in the minority, but that seems to add an unnecessary layer of complexity and potentially confusion.


I simply wanted rail territories that were not accessible from 'continent' bonuses and v.v-- it creates too many access points for entering and exiting bonuses. If I had more room, I would've made more stations that can only attack other stations. Using the limited space I have and following the actual rail lines-- I could only fit two in. When I'm cutting and adding terr's, it's to ensure there are good but limiting paths leading into the bonuses, blocking territories and exits.

The stations can also be a deterrent for anyone considering going after the rail bonuses. And adds a hiding factor into play for escalating games.

There are many maps that are far more confusing with insufficient legend explanations. Some have the same type of territories and no explanations at all on attack routes. I honestly don't see how JP and Lakeview could be interpreted as confusing or how it adds to the complexity of the game play. You have a valid point bu unless there's an overwhelming discontent for it, I prefer the stations as they are.

Thanks again for your post PG.

Adjustments.
* JP Rail Station. Moved Helipad there from Roger's Park. Allows North Side bonus to be a better 4 with one less access point .
* Increased opacity on Army Circles. Some will prolly think it's too bright now. lol--

9.2
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Last edited by Scott-Land on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9.2:Game Play [ Pg 10]

Postby Tisha on Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:43 pm

the army circles are perfect like that... I like them a lot.

Jefferson Park looks good too.
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9: New Game Play ( Bonus ) [ Pg 9]

Postby Peter Gibbons on Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:25 pm

Scott-Land,

Everything you said was a fair and reasoned response, so I'm not going to address your entire post. I just have one remaining qualm that isn't totally cleared up:

Scott-Land wrote:I simply wanted rail territories that were not accessible from 'continent' bonuses and v.v-- it creates too many access points for entering and exiting bonuses...
I can understand your desire for this and it makes sense when you use the term "vice versa," but, as the map reads from my eyes, JP and Lakeview stations cannot attack the territories in which they are contained but the territories can attack the stations. Am I missing something here?

You have a clearly stated prohibition on the stations attacking the territories but a (vice versa) prohibition on the territories attacking the stations is not explicit. That's why I said it looks like there are two one-way attacks that are not indicated at all, but implicit. However, your explanation makes me think that you do not want those one-way attacks to exist because you said you wanted "rail territories that were not accessible from 'continent' bonuses."

I know that's a bit of a convoluted follow-up, but I hope you understand what I'm asking.
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9: New Game Play ( Bonus ) [ Pg 9]

Postby Scott-Land on Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:26 pm

Peter Gibbons wrote:Scott-Land,

Everything you said was a fair and reasoned response, so I'm not going to address your entire post. I just have one remaining qualm that isn't totally cleared up:


You have a clearly stated prohibition on the stations attacking the territories but a (vice versa) prohibition on the territories attacking the stations is not explicit. That's why I said it looks like there are two one-way attacks that are not indicated at all, but implicit. However, your explanation makes me think that you do not want those one-way attacks to exist because you said you wanted "rail territories that were not accessible from 'continent' bonuses."

I know that's a bit of a convoluted follow-up, but I hope you understand what I'm asking.


I'm not sure we're on the same page here PG-- perhaps you're misunderstanding what I'm saying or I've done a poor job explaining it.

Scott-Land wrote:I simply wanted rail territories that were not accessible from 'continent' bonuses and v.v--


Jefferson Park Station and Lakeview Station are stations along the rail lines. When I say they're not accessible to territories and vice versa. I mean that Jefferson Park Rail Station is adjacent to O'hare International Station and Logan Square Station. It cannot attack Jefferson Park nor can Jefferson Park attack it. Same principle for Lakeview / Lakeview Station. Those two rail [JPS and LS ] stations are part of the rail only. There are no one way attacks.


O'hare Station <--> JPS <---> LSS
Roger's Park Station <---> Lakeview Station <---> River North Station

This is explained in the Rail Legend as well. I hope this clears things up. ;)
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9.2:Game Play [ Pg 10]

Postby Peter Gibbons on Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:45 pm

Ok. The response totally makes sense and absolutely clears up how you want the map to be and how, in actuality, it will work.

My concern is this: In the legend, next to the circle that represents the JP and Lakeview stations, it says: "Rail stops belong to rail bonuses. Attacks adjacent stations." The legend in total makes it clear that those rail territories cannot attack the territories in which they reside. However, the rail station still physically touches the territory in which it resides--they seem as though they are adjacent because, visually, they are. Plus, in real life, one would be able to access a station from that territory.

Therefore, I think the vast majority of players will make the assumption that JP and Lakeview territories can attack the JP and Lakeview stations, respectively. That's why I was referring to an "implicit one-way attack." And that's the assumption I made.

Your response makes it clear that you don't want that one-way attack to exist. I think this may be a point for others in the foundry to debate because, to me, it seems very weird for territories to physically touch without them being able to attack unless such a prohibition is explicit. I know the el Train is elevated, but I still think common sense dictates that a station can be accessed from the territory it sits in (otherwise, it's not really a "station"--just a point on the rail line, right?).

Anyway, I've made the point I want to make. If others disagree with me I've got no problem with it, but just wanted to fully raise the issue because it does seem like it will confuse players.
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9.2:Game Play [ Pg 10]

Postby Scott-Land on Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:07 pm

Peter Gibbons wrote:Ok. The response totally makes sense and absolutely clears up how you want the map to be and how, in actuality, it will work.

My concern is this: In the legend, next to the circle that represents the JP and Lakeview stations, it says: "Rail stops belong to rail bonuses. Attacks adjacent stations." The legend in total makes it clear that those rail territories cannot attack the territories in which they reside. However, the rail station still physically touches the territory in which it resides--they seem as though they are adjacent because, visually, they are. Plus, in real life, one would be able to access a station from that territory.

Therefore, I think the vast majority of players will make the assumption that JP and Lakeview territories can attack the JP and Lakeview stations, respectively. That's why I was referring to an "implicit one-way attack." And that's the assumption I made.

Your response makes it clear that you don't want that one-way attack to exist. I think this may be a point for others in the foundry to debate because, to me, it seems very weird for territories to physically touch without them being able to attack unless such a prohibition is explicit. I know the el Train is elevated, but I still think common sense dictates that a station can be accessed from the territory it sits in (otherwise, it's not really a "station"--just a point on the rail line, right?).

Anyway, I've made the point I want to make. If others disagree with me I've got no problem with it, but just wanted to fully raise the issue because it does seem like it will confuse players.


Technically they don't touch-- rail line is elevated ( I'll throw a drop shadow on it :lol: ) No just kidding, I see what you mean. We'll have to wait and see if it's a problem worth exploring.
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Re: Chicago--[D]Update V9.2:Game Play [ Pg 10]

Postby iancanton on Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:46 pm

an extremely impressive first map! u've clearly done ur homework on gameplay since, despite the apparent complexity of the map, we're not that far away from a stamp.

like peter, my main concern is the round category of station, consisting of jefferson park and lakeview. logically, what's the point of having railway stations where u can never hop on and off the train? players who have played the existing nyc map (and many who haven't) are bound to assume that they are gameplay-adjacent to their surrounding region. i suggest that, for simplicity, we eliminate this type of station and just have the other two types, accepting that the el train bonuses will be harder to hold.
Peter Gibbons wrote:Plus, in real life, one would be able to access a station from that territory.

Therefore, I think the vast majority of players will make the assumption that JP and Lakeview territories can attack the JP and Lakeview stations, respectively.

the orange line, having only 3 stations, needs to have all 3 stations coded as start positions to avoid a lucky drop. in 2-player games, each player will then start with 19 regions each (compared with 18 without start positions), with 18 being neutral; player 1 will need to conquer at least 2 of player 2's regions to reduce his initial deployment. games with 4 or more players will be unaffected.

the river west bonus zone, which can be attacked from 4 other zones plus any of the railway lines, is undervalued. it's bang in the middle of the map and contests 2 regions with the blue line. positionally, it's certainly a good +4 bonus, instead of +3. would +5 be overdoing it?

ian. :)
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