The Third Crusade [Quenched] Revamping

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:17 am

I agree - very nice work for the first draft - keep it up - proper feedback coming soon :D
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Re: The Third Crusade Map

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:30 am

Thanks for the support!
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Re: The Third Crusade Map

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:38 am

00iCon wrote:I like the way you did London and Paris, otherwise they would have seemed out of action. But i can't see any borders, such as mountains etc. They are an integral part of strategy and without them the map seems "flat"



Thanks!

Well, that was intentional, at this scale I find river crossing and mounting passing to be too much information.

..but if the scale was tighter, and the map more tactical than operational, that would make perfect sense of course!
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:54 am

DJ Teflon wrote:I agree - very nice work for the first draft - keep it up - proper feedback coming soon :D


Thanks DJ!

Actually that’s hardly a first draft :) I’ve got an all small sketch book filled up with drawings and intentions that lead to that map.
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Re: The Third Crusade Map

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:00 am

Wow, your draft is very nice!

Clear ,tidy and thoughtful..i like it! =D>

Some suggestions, critics and historical hints:


I'll be back with more comments soon. :)
Looking forward to your next update.
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Re: The Third Crusade Map

Postby iancanton on Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:09 am

duplicate topic merged with original.

ian. :)
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:48 am

Thanks a lot for your remarks. I’ll try some of those changes in the map and post them soon.

-Jerusalem (the city) has an auto-deploy feature that’s connected to its shield (only shields have auto-deploy). The Kingdom of Jerusalem (the Zone) gives a bonus of 3 and you can make it without having the city itself.

-as for the sea routes, the reason that the lines are crossing is that the seljuks can have instant access to the north of the Black Sea, and on the other hand the Byzantine Empire could move trough all his original possessions without having to overrun seljuk’s territories.
As for Barca, I’ll give it another border or I’ll just maybe do it in West Egypt – that would give Saladin more ground to protect….

-Abbreviations. Actually I couldn’t find any spot where I like to see them in the map design…. Being so:

E.C. – ‘English Channel’ appear right next to it
E. – ‘Edessa’ appears in the small map
N. – ‘Navarra’…. yes, I’m missing this one…. but I’m thinking it can appear in the gameplay when you scroll the game bar – N. Navarra or N. - Navarra (this way people could indentify it straight away) What do you think about it?

-As for the impassables, (I'm not keen on start drawing mountains and rivers in this map - I really would prefer not to) I’ve explained it before, I'll quote it:

"Well, that was intentional, at this scale I find river crossing and mounting passing to be too much information.

..but if the scale was tighter, and the map more tactical than operational, that would make perfect sense of course!"

..ok I'll put my hands on the drawing now! :)

Thanks,
K
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:08 pm

Kabanellas wrote:N. – ‘Navarra’…. yes, I’m missing this one…. but I’m thinking it can appear in the gameplay when you scroll the game bar – N. Navarra or N. - Navarra (this way people could indentify it straight away) What do you think about it?


I was thinking about something like this (or you need that space?):
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Remember that any information you need to know to play a map should be easy to gather by looking at the map itself. ;)

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:46 pm

Yes, you’re absolutely right. The only problem about that place is that you’ll overwrite the artwork… sadly…
I’ll try something else in the new version.

Something remained unexplained though, from your last post:

-The secondary territories, belong to the mother land (they have the same color but with a dash diagonal line) independently from one another. I’ll explain: If you have the Byzantine Empire you can have a total bonus of 9 (very hard to get though…). But you can gather the initial 5 from the motherland plus the +2 (7 total) from Trebixond or just +1 from Cherson (6 total)
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:11 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Ok, here it is Version 2 of the map:

-Iberian Kingdoms color now changed
-Saladin’s Dominions in North Africa have a new border. (Alexandria now borders Crete and Cyprus)
-Changed Navarra abbreviation ‘N.’ for the whole name in the map.
-placed starting positions

As for the shields I’ve tried the English and the French you’ve shown (actually I did tried them already) and kept the original ones – they look better in the map.
The Holy Roman shield is equal to the one you gave.

ImageImage

One thing worries me though, concerning the gameplay – could Saladin’s Dominions be too strong (6 troops), being near Jerusalem one can easily get the Jerusalem auto-deploy bonus plus the Muslim Bonus +2… Should I remove the Crescent from Cairo? or Drop down the bonus from the Zone?….. Historically, Saladin was strong, very strong in the region. And he took Jerusalem.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby 00iCon on Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:57 pm

Holy Romans a Byzantines look like they have to fight each other for east Europe. Since the Byzantines have to put up with the Seljuks, we could throw in a boatload of English or French (although not historically accurate). Actually, why have so much to take in east Europe? (it just gives the Holy Romans too much potential)
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:48 am

That’s why the 3 Zones from East Europe (Kingdom of Poland, Kindom of Hungary and Servia/Bulgaria) only worth 1 each.

I guess that as a Byzantine one could grab Servia/Bulgaria – though will create one more border (Larissa-Servia-Bulgaria, instead of just Larissa-Thessalonica). As a Holy Roman if you take Poland or Hungary you will be doubling your borders from 3 to 6 without gaining any real profit. Plus, almost all objectives are located in the Near East.

Would someone waste time and resources fighting in a no man’s land, leaving the really juicy stuff for others to take? I guess not.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby 00iCon on Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:42 am

In that case, why have it there at all? You could get rid of bits of Russia and those others, and put in some historical facts where they were.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:01 am

Well, I thought about it.... but I didn’t want to make a closed map rather than a circular one. I want players located in the east to be able to reach the Holy Roman Empire without having to necessarily pass through the Mediterranean.

If by any tactical reason someone needs to pass through Eastern Europe he/she should do be able to do it.
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The Third Crusade (Version 3 - updated)

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:38 am

Version updated now. Changes:

-Iberian Kingdoms and The Almohads bonus raised from 4 to 5 troops
-France can now attack Balearic Islands, and reach North Africa through them.
-Took out Melilla from the Almohad Zone to make it easier to reach the muslim bonus (Granada-Tunis)

something still worries me though... the player starting in Leon. Could he/she feel a little inprisioned there?

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:51 pm

I think you still need some sort of bonus in the north eastern regions, or else there is really no need for it.
I don't know if you can have an autodeploy bonus that is recieved for holding 2 territories. Also, I would recomend like 7 nuturals on cyprus, and Tyer, mabey 5, since there is such an easy bonus one away from a starting position, it wouuld be so easy for the people who start at England or Paris.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:07 am

Wonderful start to the map.

i do have some crits though.

The regions like kazar and early russia... do they yield a bonus? I find the circle with a color a tad difficult to read and coordinate with the rest of the map, might be me though.

Jerusalem migh tneed a little more than a swervy arrow. I took me a few minutes to figure out, but I think I get what's going on there.

The sea routes look a tad overly complex. I wonder if you might be able to clean it up with port symbols or something. I also think if you're going to give England the benefit of the channel, then places like sardinia or cyprus out to have the same benefit. Maybe... I'm still unsure but I thought it was something worth throwing out there.

I presume Tarsus can attack Melitene?

Anyway, those are my first observations. I love the graphics though, the pictures in the background are quite nicely added in. Keep up the good work!
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:38 am

Thanks Walrus and Helix for those comments!

-As for the north eastern regions I’ve explained them before:

‘As for the Kingdom of Poland, Hungary and the Serbia- Bulgaria regions – I intentionally gave them a very small bonus... so they don’t get too appealing – the war should be fought in the Near East – let’s not forget it! Plus I don’t want to make the Holy Roman Empire to fat by easily gaining big bonuses from its neighbours.’


Also:

‘... I didn’t want to make a closed map rather than a circular one. I want players located in the east to be able to reach the Holy Roman Empire without having to necessarily pass through the Mediterranean.

If by any tactical reason someone needs to pass through Eastern Europe he/she should do be able to do it.’



-As for increasing the Neutral troops.... that can be an option. Not sure if that will give a bit of an advantage to Saladin and the Seljuks....... But it seems acceptable – levelling all to 6 neutrals:

-Venice
-Jerusalem
-The Vatican
-Cyprus
-Tyre (your 5 in tyre seem good – just be coherent, it gives less bonus than Cyprus)
-Seleucia (I’d put 4 here)


Helix:

-the regions with lighter lines do not yield any bonus – sort of no-men land – just existing to be crossed if you desire to.

-the circle with the golden ring – it seemed to me the easiest and simpler way to mark game-play objectives on map as long with the legend.

-the sea routes: well, I’m not quite a supporter of port symbols unless they all connect between each other. Not the case here.... So those dashed lines (after a lot of testing – believe me:)) were the more direct way to make those overseas connections perceptible.

-as for the English Channel I’ve explained it before:
‘The all idea about the English Channel having 10 neutrals is just so that France and England cannot attack each other EASILY. That’s why I gave negative bonus to Ratisbone owner when invading French territories, and same to Paris owner when invading Iberian territories.’

‘(I didn’t give negative bonus the other way around – France to Holy Roman Empire. I prefer to make it easier to defend (just 2 territories))

Also, I didn’t give any negative effects between England-France because they were actually at war right before the beginning of the Crusade – still those 10 neutrals are hard to pass’



-yes, Tarsus can attack Melitene.

Version updated now. Changes:

-Iberian Kingdoms and The Almohads bonus raised from 4 to 5 troops
-France can now attack Balearic Islands, and reach North Africa through them.
-Took out Melilla from the Almohad Zone to make it easier to reach the muslim bonus (Granada-Tunis)

something still worries me though... the player starting in Leon. Could he/she feel a little inprisioned there?

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:01 pm

Ok, I see... I missed the bit where you posted expanded rules a few posts after the starting post. I'd suggest throwing that up there in the starting post.

Ok, the eastern regions hold no bonus then. I think therefore they should have no distinguishing colors perhaps or various shades of one color to designate geographical regions. I think the way it is set up now is slightly misleading.

As for the water lanes, if you're going to stick with it then I guess you're going to stick with it. Perhaps reduce the number of lines entering and exiting an island then? For example, two lines leave Toulouse. Couldn't that be consolidated to one line that branches out to two places... nevermind. I just drew over your map for simplicities sake:

Click image to enlarge.
image


I think I'm starting to get skeptical about gameplay here. If I get deployed France in a standard game, I'm going to immediately make a move to eliminate the player at Germany. Granted this gives the German player a second chance as he's got a starting point in the Mid East... I think that player would have unfairly started in a weak position.

Also, you have two Triploi's, which while historical, may cause confusion in regards to the objective. Fudge it and call it Cyrene or something?

Otherwise, I think with such complex gameplay its going to be difficult to predict the problems that arise. But anyway, keep it up. It will be resolved eventually. I think you've got a strong concept that will make a great map.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby captainwalrus on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:03 pm

You seem like your not going to change this but no one is ever going to attack half of the territories. At least combine some of the russian or polish territories just so it looks more apealing, since they aren't going to effect gameplay.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:12 am

Right! I’ve inserted a map with less water lanes. What do you think?

About the France-Ratisbone issue:

Remember that there are negative effects from having Ratisbone and any French region…. Being so, if a player starting in Paris got so lucky to take Ratisbone He would be put out of game… (he would receive the normal 3 but would have a negative effect of -4 – He would have no armies to deploy in the next round.)


As for the different colors in those regions, they exist just for historical coherence and show different ethnicities – one color stands for Russia, one for the Polovars, another for the Khazars, another for the Alans and another for Kassogs…. And it seems to me, it also gives a richer and detailed look to the map……

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:58 am

Looks good, I think it helps simplify things some. Athens/crete/attalia looks like it could a merging as well, and the black sea looks like two sea routes passing by... perhaps a clear merged dotted line would help. You could get rid of the cherson/kassogs line as well.

OK, good explanation. I didn't read the rules properly which is why I usually lose the first time I play a map :P

You ought to adjust the rule box so say the English channel reverts to neutral 10, rather than just neutral.

The problem I brought up before, I think also applies to Fez and Leon... unless the straits of Gibraltar aren't crossable, which historically is ridiculous. Perhaps if Grenada starts with a large neutral as well, which I can't seem to find in the previous posts whether or not it does.

And the regions with the white lines, I think they're there to designate optional territories in holding a bonus region... but not entirely sure. Is this correct?
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:53 am

Hummm the thing in the Black Sea is that I need all those movements to be possible in the way they are…..

About Granada…. I think that for game-play reasons Fez should be able to reach to it, and then grab Tunis and make the Muslim Bonus… of course that you have a point there, one could try to eliminate the other.. if not in the first round (which seems hard) at least in the second….

But that’s a thought, having 6 neutrals could solve it…..
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:18 am

Version 4 Updated

Inserted all neutrals that differ from 3.

(Helix) - changed the E.C. legend now :)

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby captainwalrus on Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:35 pm

I just thought of something. In an assasin game, it will be really hard if the person who starts with Ratisbone if their target has Paris. The -4 will be really hard to get through.
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