The Third Crusade [Quenched] Revamping

[DJ Teflon]

I agree - very nice work for the first draft - keep it up - proper feedback coming soon

[Kabanellas]

Thanks for the support!

[Kabanellas]

I like the way you did London and Paris, otherwise they would have seemed out of action. But i can't see any borders, such as mountains etc. They are an integral part of strategy and without them the map seems "flat"

Thanks!

Well, that was intentional, at this scale I find river crossing and mounting passing to be too much information.

..but if the scale was tighter, and the map more tactical than operational, that would make perfect sense of course!

[Kabanellas]

I agree - very nice work for the first draft - keep it up - proper feedback coming soon

Thanks DJ!

Actually that’s hardly a first draft I’ve got an all small sketch book filled up with drawings and intentions that lead to that map.

[thenobodies80]

Wow, your draft is very nice!

Clear ,tidy and thoughtful..i like it!

Some suggestions, critics and historical hints:

• Shields:
  - Kingdom of England (Richard I) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Richard_I_of_England_Arms.svg
  - Kingdom of France (Philip II) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:France_Ancient.svg
  - Holy Roman Empire (Frederick I) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_Arms-single_head.svg
  - Byzantine Empire (Isaac II) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palaiologos-Dynasty-Eagle.svg
  - Ayyubids (muslims) (empire) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Ayyubid_Dynasty.svg
  - Seljuk Empire (muslims) (empire) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Seljuq_Empire.svg
  - Emirate of Granata (muslims) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:COA_of_Nasrid_dynasty_kingdom_of_Grenade_(1013-1492).svg
  - Kingdom of Sicily http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aragon-Sicily_Arms.svg
  - Knights Templar http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Cross_of_the_Knights_Templar.svg/600px-Cross_of_the_Knights_Templar.svg.png
• Colors: Iberian Kingdom and Holy Roman Empire are similar. Secondary territories like granada, balearics, corsica, cyprus, damascus territories are not easy understandable, for example balearics are a part of granada or cors? Rememeber that when you have to do the small map, everything has to be clear.
• troops placement: Jerusalem has a 1 troop autodeployed. Where? On the its shield or jerusalem is splitted and all armies are deployed on a single armies circle? (just to understand )
• Starting placement:Can you place the neutral armies/starting positions on the map? The map will be easier to understand. You can find the psd file with numbers here if you need.
• Sea routes: Cherson-trebisond-amasia-kassogs is a bit confusing. it's better not to have crossing lines. What do you think about the possibility to change malt-cyprus into mata-barca-cyprus (north africa is almost unassailable)
• Title: On the first look i thought you didn't it...is very small, but the problem is not the size itself, but the fact that the title is what gives to your map a precise historical connotation.
• Abbreviations: I think it's better to have a single place for abbreviations.
  
• Impassables: No impassables? For example Alps...

I'll be back with more comments soon.
Looking forward to your next update.
thenobodies80

[iancanton]

duplicate topic merged with original.

ian.

[Kabanellas]

Thanks a lot for your remarks. I’ll try some of those changes in the map and post them soon.

-Jerusalem (the city) has an auto-deploy feature that’s connected to its shield (only shields have auto-deploy). The Kingdom of Jerusalem (the Zone) gives a bonus of 3 and you can make it without having the city itself.

-as for the sea routes, the reason that the lines are crossing is that the seljuks can have instant access to the north of the Black Sea, and on the other hand the Byzantine Empire could move trough all his original possessions without having to overrun seljuk’s territories.
As for Barca, I’ll give it another border or I’ll just maybe do it in West Egypt – that would give Saladin more ground to protect….

-Abbreviations. Actually I couldn’t find any spot where I like to see them in the map design…. Being so:

E.C. – ‘English Channel’ appear right next to it
E. – ‘Edessa’ appears in the small map
N. – ‘Navarra’…. yes, I’m missing this one…. but I’m thinking it can appear in the gameplay when you scroll the game bar – N. Navarra or N. - Navarra (this way people could indentify it straight away) What do you think about it?

-As for the impassables, (I'm not keen on start drawing mountains and rivers in this map - I really would prefer not to) I’ve explained it before, I'll quote it:

"Well, that was intentional, at this scale I find river crossing and mounting passing to be too much information.

..but if the scale was tighter, and the map more tactical than operational, that would make perfect sense of course!"

..ok I'll put my hands on the drawing now!

Thanks,
K

[thenobodies80]

N. – ‘Navarra’…. yes, I’m missing this one…. but I’m thinking it can appear in the gameplay when you scroll the game bar – N. Navarra or N. - Navarra (this way people could indentify it straight away) What do you think about it?

I was thinking about something like this (or you need that space?):

show

Remember that any information you need to know to play a map should be easy to gather by looking at the map itself.

[Kabanellas]

Yes, you’re absolutely right. The only problem about that place is that you’ll overwrite the artwork… sadly…
I’ll try something else in the new version.

Something remained unexplained though, from your last post:

-The secondary territories, belong to the mother land (they have the same color but with a dash diagonal line) independently from one another. I’ll explain: If you have the Byzantine Empire you can have a total bonus of 9 (very hard to get though…). But you can gather the initial 5 from the motherland plus the +2 (7 total) from Trebixond or just +1 from Cherson (6 total)

[Kabanellas]

Click image to enlarge.

Ok, here it is Version 2 of the map:

-Iberian Kingdoms color now changed
-Saladin’s Dominions in North Africa have a new border. (Alexandria now borders Crete and Cyprus)
-Changed Navarra abbreviation ‘N.’ for the whole name in the map.
-placed starting positions

As for the shields I’ve tried the English and the French you’ve shown (actually I did tried them already) and kept the original ones – they look better in the map.
The Holy Roman shield is equal to the one you gave.



One thing worries me though, concerning the gameplay – could Saladin’s Dominions be too strong (6 troops), being near Jerusalem one can easily get the Jerusalem auto-deploy bonus plus the Muslim Bonus +2… Should I remove the Crescent from Cairo? or Drop down the bonus from the Zone?….. Historically, Saladin was strong, very strong in the region. And he took Jerusalem.

[00iCon]

Holy Romans a Byzantines look like they have to fight each other for east Europe. Since the Byzantines have to put up with the Seljuks, we could throw in a boatload of English or French (although not historically accurate). Actually, why have so much to take in east Europe? (it just gives the Holy Romans too much potential)

[Kabanellas]

That’s why the 3 Zones from East Europe (Kingdom of Poland, Kindom of Hungary and Servia/Bulgaria) only worth 1 each.

I guess that as a Byzantine one could grab Servia/Bulgaria – though will create one more border (Larissa-Servia-Bulgaria, instead of just Larissa-Thessalonica). As a Holy Roman if you take Poland or Hungary you will be doubling your borders from 3 to 6 without gaining any real profit. Plus, almost all objectives are located in the Near East.

Would someone waste time and resources fighting in a no man’s land, leaving the really juicy stuff for others to take? I guess not.

[00iCon]

In that case, why have it there at all? You could get rid of bits of Russia and those others, and put in some historical facts where they were.

[Kabanellas]

Well, I thought about it.... but I didn’t want to make a closed map rather than a circular one. I want players located in the east to be able to reach the Holy Roman Empire without having to necessarily pass through the Mediterranean.

If by any tactical reason someone needs to pass through Eastern Europe he/she should do be able to do it.

[Kabanellas]

Version updated now. Changes:

-Iberian Kingdoms and The Almohads bonus raised from 4 to 5 troops
-France can now attack Balearic Islands, and reach North Africa through them.
-Took out Melilla from the Almohad Zone to make it easier to reach the muslim bonus (Granada-Tunis)

something still worries me though... the player starting in Leon. Could he/she feel a little inprisioned there?

Click image to enlarge.