The Third Crusade [Quenched] Revamping

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:51 pm

I think you still need some sort of bonus in the north eastern regions, or else there is really no need for it.
I don't know if you can have an autodeploy bonus that is recieved for holding 2 territories. Also, I would recomend like 7 nuturals on cyprus, and Tyer, mabey 5, since there is such an easy bonus one away from a starting position, it wouuld be so easy for the people who start at England or Paris.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:07 am

Wonderful start to the map.

i do have some crits though.

The regions like kazar and early russia... do they yield a bonus? I find the circle with a color a tad difficult to read and coordinate with the rest of the map, might be me though.

Jerusalem migh tneed a little more than a swervy arrow. I took me a few minutes to figure out, but I think I get what's going on there.

The sea routes look a tad overly complex. I wonder if you might be able to clean it up with port symbols or something. I also think if you're going to give England the benefit of the channel, then places like sardinia or cyprus out to have the same benefit. Maybe... I'm still unsure but I thought it was something worth throwing out there.

I presume Tarsus can attack Melitene?

Anyway, those are my first observations. I love the graphics though, the pictures in the background are quite nicely added in. Keep up the good work!
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:38 am

Thanks Walrus and Helix for those comments!

-As for the north eastern regions I’ve explained them before:

‘As for the Kingdom of Poland, Hungary and the Serbia- Bulgaria regions – I intentionally gave them a very small bonus... so they don’t get too appealing – the war should be fought in the Near East – let’s not forget it! Plus I don’t want to make the Holy Roman Empire to fat by easily gaining big bonuses from its neighbours.’


Also:

‘... I didn’t want to make a closed map rather than a circular one. I want players located in the east to be able to reach the Holy Roman Empire without having to necessarily pass through the Mediterranean.

If by any tactical reason someone needs to pass through Eastern Europe he/she should do be able to do it.’



-As for increasing the Neutral troops.... that can be an option. Not sure if that will give a bit of an advantage to Saladin and the Seljuks....... But it seems acceptable – levelling all to 6 neutrals:

-Venice
-Jerusalem
-The Vatican
-Cyprus
-Tyre (your 5 in tyre seem good – just be coherent, it gives less bonus than Cyprus)
-Seleucia (I’d put 4 here)


Helix:

-the regions with lighter lines do not yield any bonus – sort of no-men land – just existing to be crossed if you desire to.

-the circle with the golden ring – it seemed to me the easiest and simpler way to mark game-play objectives on map as long with the legend.

-the sea routes: well, I’m not quite a supporter of port symbols unless they all connect between each other. Not the case here.... So those dashed lines (after a lot of testing – believe me:)) were the more direct way to make those overseas connections perceptible.

-as for the English Channel I’ve explained it before:
‘The all idea about the English Channel having 10 neutrals is just so that France and England cannot attack each other EASILY. That’s why I gave negative bonus to Ratisbone owner when invading French territories, and same to Paris owner when invading Iberian territories.’

‘(I didn’t give negative bonus the other way around – France to Holy Roman Empire. I prefer to make it easier to defend (just 2 territories))

Also, I didn’t give any negative effects between England-France because they were actually at war right before the beginning of the Crusade – still those 10 neutrals are hard to pass’



-yes, Tarsus can attack Melitene.

Version updated now. Changes:

-Iberian Kingdoms and The Almohads bonus raised from 4 to 5 troops
-France can now attack Balearic Islands, and reach North Africa through them.
-Took out Melilla from the Almohad Zone to make it easier to reach the muslim bonus (Granada-Tunis)

something still worries me though... the player starting in Leon. Could he/she feel a little inprisioned there?

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:01 pm

Ok, I see... I missed the bit where you posted expanded rules a few posts after the starting post. I'd suggest throwing that up there in the starting post.

Ok, the eastern regions hold no bonus then. I think therefore they should have no distinguishing colors perhaps or various shades of one color to designate geographical regions. I think the way it is set up now is slightly misleading.

As for the water lanes, if you're going to stick with it then I guess you're going to stick with it. Perhaps reduce the number of lines entering and exiting an island then? For example, two lines leave Toulouse. Couldn't that be consolidated to one line that branches out to two places... nevermind. I just drew over your map for simplicities sake:

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I think I'm starting to get skeptical about gameplay here. If I get deployed France in a standard game, I'm going to immediately make a move to eliminate the player at Germany. Granted this gives the German player a second chance as he's got a starting point in the Mid East... I think that player would have unfairly started in a weak position.

Also, you have two Triploi's, which while historical, may cause confusion in regards to the objective. Fudge it and call it Cyrene or something?

Otherwise, I think with such complex gameplay its going to be difficult to predict the problems that arise. But anyway, keep it up. It will be resolved eventually. I think you've got a strong concept that will make a great map.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby captainwalrus on Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:03 pm

You seem like your not going to change this but no one is ever going to attack half of the territories. At least combine some of the russian or polish territories just so it looks more apealing, since they aren't going to effect gameplay.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:12 am

Right! I’ve inserted a map with less water lanes. What do you think?

About the France-Ratisbone issue:

Remember that there are negative effects from having Ratisbone and any French region…. Being so, if a player starting in Paris got so lucky to take Ratisbone He would be put out of game… (he would receive the normal 3 but would have a negative effect of -4 – He would have no armies to deploy in the next round.)


As for the different colors in those regions, they exist just for historical coherence and show different ethnicities – one color stands for Russia, one for the Polovars, another for the Khazars, another for the Alans and another for Kassogs…. And it seems to me, it also gives a richer and detailed look to the map……

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:58 am

Looks good, I think it helps simplify things some. Athens/crete/attalia looks like it could a merging as well, and the black sea looks like two sea routes passing by... perhaps a clear merged dotted line would help. You could get rid of the cherson/kassogs line as well.

OK, good explanation. I didn't read the rules properly which is why I usually lose the first time I play a map :P

You ought to adjust the rule box so say the English channel reverts to neutral 10, rather than just neutral.

The problem I brought up before, I think also applies to Fez and Leon... unless the straits of Gibraltar aren't crossable, which historically is ridiculous. Perhaps if Grenada starts with a large neutral as well, which I can't seem to find in the previous posts whether or not it does.

And the regions with the white lines, I think they're there to designate optional territories in holding a bonus region... but not entirely sure. Is this correct?
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:53 am

Hummm the thing in the Black Sea is that I need all those movements to be possible in the way they are…..

About Granada…. I think that for game-play reasons Fez should be able to reach to it, and then grab Tunis and make the Muslim Bonus… of course that you have a point there, one could try to eliminate the other.. if not in the first round (which seems hard) at least in the second….

But that’s a thought, having 6 neutrals could solve it…..
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:18 am

Version 4 Updated

Inserted all neutrals that differ from 3.

(Helix) - changed the E.C. legend now :)

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby captainwalrus on Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:35 pm

I just thought of something. In an assasin game, it will be really hard if the person who starts with Ratisbone if their target has Paris. The -4 will be really hard to get through.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:46 pm

Yeh, changes to English channel look good, you might want to use the word "revert" over "turns back to" just to look all professional and that.

The border between Larissa and Athens is difficult to notice, I think because its so short. You might want to move it up some, or it might not even matter when you can see the men in the army circle.

I think England might be a little too easy to get a bonus. Maybe reduce it to 1.

I'd suggest changing the border of Tunis and Algiers so to fit the words Tunis in there better.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:24 am

Walrus... yes, you’re probably right – maybe not a suitable game for assassin mode – unless killers and victims start far enough from each other... (don’t know if the programming could solve that)

----------------

Helix, You’re right, far better now… Is it ok, ending with an ‘s’ (reverts)?

Changed the borders:
Moved up Athenian border, and redone Tunis.

As for England income, I could reduce it to 1. But wouldn’t it be a too much big difference comparing to France (4)?
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:20 pm

Yeah, looks better. I wish you could add some more terrs. to England though... Midlands, Cornwall or something. It's I just don't think it would fit.

One option would be to raise the neutral on Wales to 4 or 5 or something as to make England work for the bonus while France and H.R.E. have to go all over the place.

Also, can't France simply break the HRE bonus whenever it feels like and suffer no consequences? It seems there should be a bonus deduction for that as well.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:35 pm

Yes, I really have no Space to add one or two more provinces to England….

I’ve chose to make the Holy Roman Empire easier to defend, having just 2 borders. But, I thought about it too. Something worries me – if the HRE doesn’t have to defend its West borders he would have all its 6 troops free to use in the East…. (but I’m quite whiling to change this – Just think that maybe we should think a little more about it….)

Btw, I think that if was playing France or HRE – I’d go straight away for the Eastern bonus rather than making the zone bonus

Being in England, I’d make the zone bonus first, so I can deal with Cyprus later – the Eastern bonus is a little more difficult in this case, having 6 neutral troops to overrun in Cyprus (and let’s not forget the Byzantine pretensions on Cyprus).
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:27 am

I’d like you guys to make an exercise, so I can figure out styles of play, and optimize game-play:

What would you do in the first 2 or 3 rounds if you were playing as any of those kingdoms/Empires:

The Kingdom of England (London)
The Kingdom of France (Paris)
The Holy Roman Empire (Ratisbone)
Iberian Kingdoms (Leon)
The Almohads (Fez)
The Byzantine Empire (Thessalonica)
Saladin’s Dominions (Cairo)
The Seljuks (Amasia)


Also, what are the starting positions that you find more and less favourable?

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