The Third Crusade [Quenched] Revamping

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:00 pm

Kabanellas wrote:Can we have an auto-deploy region that is triggered by possessing another region?


dolomite13 wrote:I thought you needed to assign autodeploys to a single territory and that a bonus for two territories would be assigned as though you were holding a continent and the bonus would be a generic bonus that could be dropped anywhere you control.


Correct ;)
Autodeploy bonus is assigned to a specific territory (<bonus>):
Code: Select all
<territory>
<name>Blackwidow Roost</name>
<borders>
<border>Frogstomp</border>
<border>Deadmen Dancing</border>
<border>Magic Wand</border>
<border>Gizzard Gue</border>
<border>Well of Spells</border>
</borders>
<coordinates>
<smallx>430</smallx>
<smally>450</smally>
<largex>530</largex>
<largey>549</largey>
</coordinates>
<neutral>6</neutral>
<bonus>1</bonus>
</territory>
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:18 am

Ok Limbo, you've got a point there. The thing is that I wanted to mark the different ethnicities in the region and somehow enrich the map.... But I’ll make a different version.

Nobodies thanks. But what can be done? I need that bonus to work the way it works – i.e. London-Cyprus with the bonus appearing in Cyprus. I need some ideas....
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby eigenvector on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:30 am

Hi,

This map looks awesome; I can't wait to start playing on it. =D>

I have some suggestions/questions, mostly about historical accuracy:

(1) The county of Edessa had been destroyed in 1044 and was a total goner by the 3rd Crusade. I suggest you remove its bonus to indicate it was no longer a separate political entity.

(2) I don't get the "Byzantine Bonus" of +3 for holding the Vatican and Constantinople. What is the basis for this?

(Apropos, I do not think the name Vatican was in use to refer to the Papal State in the Middle Ages but I could be wrong here.)

(3) I confess I do not understand the three extra rules about London/Paris/Ratisbone. Can you please explain?

(4) The Byzantine empire used to contain the Seljuk territories and in fact during much of the 12th century it managed to regain at least a suzerainty over them (until Manuel's debacle at Myriokephalon on 1176). So I suggest a special bonus for holding both areas.

Way to go!!
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:08 pm

Thanks Eigen for your support.

1) You’re right, of course. But I think that its appearance would spice up a bit the Middle East scenario inset. Think of it this way: Maybe restoring the County of Edessa could be an option if the Third Crusade had gone in a slightly different way.

2) Another Spicy situation – Since the break of the Roman Empire, the idea of bringing back the West and the East together subsisted for centuries... Being so, if someone unites again Rome and Constantinople should be given a bonus for it.
As for the Vatican issue.... I’m not sure either... I didn’t name the region ‘the Papal States’ for they were indeed much larger. I could call it Rome – but it would lose the religious meaning that I find important to be represented in the map

3) The rules: Paris, for example. If you have Paris and Tyre you’ll get a +3 Bonus auto-deployed in Tyre (the crusade army) on the other hand I gave a negative effect to a player owning Paris and invading an Iberian region – so the wars between European countries in Europe don’t get too appealing.

4) The Seljuks existed in that area and they were strong there, by 1190. I preferred to make the Byzantium motherland zone bonus in its natural core giving the extra bonus to Trebixond, Cyprus and Cherson. Both trebixond and Cherson were actually possessions of the Byzantine Empire in 1190 (Cyprus was conquered by the English), but they are quite hard to protect. So I had to keep them separated.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:13 pm

Ok. version 6 ready.
It comes with 2 options.

One with different colours representing the different ethnicities in Eastern Europe, another with a grey scale on them so people don’t get mislead and think that those territories give bonus.

Size corrected now – 600 pixels height

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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby barterer2002 on Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:51 am

The problem I have is that while you're right that the EC isn't impassable, it certain is until the first set of cards comes in. A player in Paris isn't going to be able to get there until at least that time. And while I understand the idea of protecting London from early attacks it seems to me that London is protected and none of the other opening areas are. For instance what's to prevent the paris owner from fighting with rattisborne? For instance start with 3 on Paris, Deploy your three there. Good rolls will take you through the 3 on Lorraine and the 3 on Rattisborne before that player even has a chance to move. Its very good rolls of course but it has been done and can be again. I don't see why you're protecting London here and not others. That's the issue with the EC 10 in my mind.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:13 pm

Barterer, remember that you have negative effects:

About the France-Ratisbone issue:

Remember that there are negative effects from having Ratisbone and any French region…. Being so, if a player starting in Paris got so lucky to take Ratisbone He would be put out of game… (he would receive the normal 3 but would have a negative effect of -4 – He would have no armies to deploy in the next round.)
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:34 pm

Right, but can't the Paris player capture everything but Ratisbone and use that against which ever player is there? So he can break the HRE bonus if he choses but the Ratisbone player can not break the France bonus.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby barterer2002 on Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:22 pm

Yeah I see that although I think the map isn't clear on it. I would suspect that many players playing the game for the first time won't see that and will lose due to map trickery. Your phrase reads that its -4 for any time Rattisborn invades France. Now in truth the way it works is that holding Ratts and any French tert is going to be -4 but for some reason you haven't gotten it written that way. (you've got the French/Iberia type of thing that should likely be fixed).

I'm also not finding the starting positions to be balanced and maybe you're right on Paris/Ratts that the protection is there for both of them but you've got 8 starting positions and they're certainly not all protected. Compare to Cairo, Amasia, Thessalonica, there isn't any. They're closer to the objectives but also are subjected to standard take outs (which the Europeans aren't. That may be what you're going for historically speaking but this isn't a map to show history, its a map to play Risk on and giving certain starting positions advantages in terms of not being able to be taken out early is a grave issue IMO and one that still isn't being addressed.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:03 pm

Kabanellas - I like the grayscale version. I think you could add a little more contrast there between the various regions and find a happy compromise between the gray and the 'ethnic' versions, but the gray works, in my opinion.

I noticed another color issue - is Malta part of the England bonus, because the color looks identical to me. You might want to put that to gray as well, if not.

The background images are looking better, but I'm still not feeling the ship(s). If I had not seen the larger version before, I'm not sure I'd know what those are at their current size and they'll be even more indistinct on the smaller map.

barterer2002 wrote: Now in truth the way it works is that holding Ratts and any French tert is going to be -4 but for some reason you haven't gotten it written that way. (you've got the French/Iberia type of thing that should likely be fixed).


Yeah, I was rather confused by this as well and to a larger point, I think this will be tremendously frustrating during gameplay as a player holding Paris or Ratisbone will have no recourse to disable their opponent to the West. In Risk, it isn't enough to just defend your territories well, you need to be able to hinder your opponents growth as well.

You said earlier:
Kabanellas wrote:But I just didn’t want to go in the way that the ‘New world’ map went, having the European powers in a small frame without connection between each others.


However, this map has similar boundaries. Unlike New World, a player CAN attack from France to Iberia, but why would they? The border between Toulouse and Iberia may as well be impassable from Paris's POV, except that the Leon player can torment them endlessly - without fear of retaliation.

It also means that the player in HRE can drop troops on Corsica & Arles and if any other player got ahold of Tyre, the Paris player is trapped and cannot move anywhere on the map. (Unless they then go north, which requires passage through 7-10 territories to reach anything resembling a significant bonus.)

Still, that's a minor problem compared to not being able to attack an opponent in Leon. Ditto for the Ratisbone player trying to hinder his Paris opponent. While I love the visuals of this map, this element of gameplay would instantly turn me away.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:46 am

Helix, the negative effects working in just one way was intentional, so players can move east through Europe. To compensate that I made France easier to defend from Iberia point of view having just 1 border region and HRE with just 2 borders.

Barterer, I realize that they are not all equally balanced (yet), but that happens in some others maps too. Bringing up the New World map example again: if you start in a European country you’ll get an advantage over someone starting in the native’s homeland, because of the ‘landing point’ bonus.

Ok... Guys I could change it all! Drop the negative effects and all.
But wouldn’t we be losing more than we would gain in terms of interesting game-play situations?

One of the things that I find appealing is that each position/player will need to have a different style of play in the map never forgetting that the game is won by achieving objectives. I’m finding hard to believe that European countries will run onto each other a let Saladin/Cairo calmly reach victory.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby whitestazn88 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:56 pm

just noticed something... don't put your name on that white space in the inset of the map thingy... it made me think that was a territory.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:07 am

Limbo, changed the Grey grade and sunk the ships.

Stazn, changed the name location (forgot to do it in version A)
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby barterer2002 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:30 am

Kabanellas wrote:
Barterer, I realize that they are not all equally balanced (yet), but that happens in some others maps too. Bringing up the New World map example again: if you start in a European country you’ll get an advantage over someone starting in the native’s homeland, because of the ‘landing point’ bonus.


But the difference between starting positions in maps like New World are minor. Here there is some major imbalance in play.
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Re: The Third Crusade

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:33 pm

The way I see it we have 2 options:

A) We keep the starting positions (and start focus on game-play, trying to reduce advantages where we feel there’s too many)

or

B) We change those starting positions to neutrals keeping the previous ones, and everybody starts scattered all over the map. (I had to drop the negative effects of course and take down those 10 neutrals from the English channel)

What do you think?

(I’ll start preparing a map for option B anyway)

Btw, I’ll most probably have to drop those ‘auto-deploy’ connections (London-Cyprus/Paris-Tyre/Ratisbone-Seleucia). The XML doesn’t support it.
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The Third Crusade (Version 7 - random deployment)

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:09 pm

Guys, ‘Version 7 – random deployment’ referring to option B, as posted before, is ready.

Changes:

-Previous starting locations changed to neutral
-No negative effects between HRE-France-Iberia
-English Channel dropped from 10 to 3 neutrals
-One more region given to France that resulted in less borders facing the HRE
-all non-bonus regions (gray scale) start neutral (have some doubts here, I’ll maybe change them to 2 neutrals)


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We have now 2 options – either we take option A – fixed starting positions and we try to balance the game-play and I’m totally available for discussion or we go for option B with random deployment.
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Re: The Third Crusade (Version 7 - random deployment)

Postby barterer2002 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:20 pm

Well the random deployment fixes my concern with starting position.

A question. Is it possible in the XML to use the starting positions as you'd intended with each player getting an equal number of them and then fill in the rest of the map randomly? Call it option C. Not sure if its doable or even preferable but wanted to throw it out there.

A question I hadn't raised earlier but which will raise now is why does London/Cyprus have a +3, Paris/Tyre +2 and Ratisborn/Selucia a +1? If you take one of the connections away from Cyprus and add two to Selucia then they'll be even. This can be done by fudging the borders a little to allow Konya to attack Selucia and drawing the line from Tripoli to Selucia rather than to Cyprus. This will take some of the power away from Cyprus but still leave it as an important piece and also make the Paris-Seleucia attack line a viable way into the field.

I'm tired tonight and may not be thinking straight so if I'm not making sense just say so.
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Re: The Third Crusade (Version 7 - random deployment)

Postby whitestazn88 on Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:18 am

i like option b. makes it much better
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Re: The Third Crusade (Version 7 - random deployment)

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:22 am

Barterer, I needed to differentiate them for 2 mainly reasons:

Historically makes sense than England gets more reinforcements than the French, and the French more than HRE, in the Middle East. On the other hand it will balance the game a bit more with England receiving (in Europe) less than France and France less than HRE.

Also, Cyprus will be a crash point for the Byzantines (aiming for the Cyprus extra bonus) and for Saladin. Seleucia gives less at start but has a big potential of establishing the Armenia Cilicia Bonus which are +2, making a total of +3.

As for the XML question... might be interesting. Maybe Andrew could answer that :)
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Re: The Third Crusade (Version 7 - random deployment)

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:56 am

Hmmm... I typed a huge reply and now its gone...

Well the gist of it was that I prefer random deployment, bonus for holding dual shields, lower neutrals on the shields, easier to attain bonuses in the Holy Land to drive the game there rather than in Europe, removing the neutrals from the Russia area, keep the one way attacks from Europe to the Holy land.

I say, set it up based on random deployment and make progress slowly from there, addressing gameplay aspects one by one.
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Re: The Third Crusade (Version 7 - random deployment)

Postby AndrewB on Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:56 pm

barterer2002 wrote:A question. Is it possible in the XML to use the starting positions as you'd intended with each player getting an equal number of them and then fill in the rest of the map randomly? Call it option C. Not sure if its doable or even preferable but wanted to throw it out there.


Yes you can:

viewtopic.php?p=1666582#p1666582

Any territories not in <position> tags, and that do not have <neutral> starts, are divided equally amongst players (with 1/3 neutral in 2-player games)
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Re: The Third Crusade (Version 7 - random deployment)

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:41 pm

Thanks Andrew.

Barterer’s question raised an interesting new option that could spice things a bit.

Let’s see:

-We could keep those starting positions, letting all other regions (apart from the neutral ones) be randomly assigned to players.

-we could make some of those fixed positions start with more or less troops, depending on how we feel that they start in advantage or not. (in this case I would raise the Iberian starting position -Leon- to 5......

Helix, I’m thinking on it too – maybe drop a bit those neutrals standing in Cyprus, Tyre and Seleucia.
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Re: The Third Crusade (Version 7 - random deployment)

Postby AndrewB on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:33 pm

We had nice long discussion with Kabanellas about this map.

Here is the list some of the suggestions/topics:

1. Make Leon connect to holy land easier (through the Malta-Antioch for example)
2. Make objectives easier to hold. By
2.1 Reducing the number of neutrals in them (to 3 neutrals in the bonus baring ones and to 2 otherwise)
2.2 Reducing the number of countries per objective. For Example:
2.2.1 Home Land + Landing point + Jerusalem + (Vatican or Granada)
2.3 Increasing the number of the objectives. For Example:
2.3.1 Jerusalem + (Vatican or Granada) + (2 out of 5 important territories)
3. Review Bonuses for the eastern Europe (+1 is way to low)
4. Add Year label to the title (1190)
5. Make whole Edessa to fit on the inset map (reduce Rakka a bit, move whole Edessa down)
6. Legend needs to be re-think. Way too busy.
6.1 Diagonally hatched territories need better explanation/marking.
6.2 Reduce number of word in the legend. For Example. instead of Kingdom of England - Just say England.
6.3 Reorder the bonuses, so they are listed accordingly to the map layout (Clockwise or top to bottom, left to right)
7. I am still not convinced about the purpose of Russian territories. I doubt anyone will ever attack them. Make them ones, and people can think about bulking up on them.
8. Water link between Venice - Apulia - Larissa is inconsistent as comparing to Crete - Sicily - Malta. (One is just a 3 lines connected together, the other one has nice, curved connections).
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The Third Crusade (Version 8 - Mixed Deployment)

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:35 am

Right, after a long chat with AndrewB some points did start to clarify. So here is version 8 of the map, with the mixed deployment option as suggested by Barterer.

- We have now mixed deployment: 8 fixed starting positions with the rest unmarked regions (not neutral) being randomly assigned to every player.
- This map is intended to be won by objectives achievement rather than by conquest. Being so the numbers of objectives were reduced and made more accessible to every player.
- Leon starting position changed to Castile, were a one way attack could take this player to the centre of the action in Malta and consequently to the ‘Krak des Chevaliers’ (Templars/Hospitaliers) stronghold.
- Edessa is now entirely represented in the inset map.
- Added the year of the Crusade to the title.
- One less region in the Almohad zone bonus, making it more balanced for someone starting in Tunis.

Still not convinced on raising the eastern countries bonus (Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria).... As I’ve said before, I don’t want to make this area too appealing.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Those are the changes that, I believe, conclude this phase of development. I pretty much would like to step to the next level now :)
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Re: The Third Crusade (Version 8 - Mixed Deployment)

Postby eigenvector on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:57 am

Hey!

This map keeps getting better :)

Two questions for now:

(1) Are you sure about the Trebixond spelling? I used to think it was Trebizond (or in some translliterations Trapezund).

(2) Can you change the AD to CE? I hope I'm not starting a flamewar here... ;)

Keep up the good work!
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