Austro-Hungarian Empire [Quenched]

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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - New Version! pg. 4

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:52 pm

Wow that is a beautiful update. Something about the mountains though... I think the shadows are too dark and nothing else on the map has that level of darkness. They could use some more integration with the land as well... like a smoother transition from land to mountains. And the river is too uniform to fit with the very natural look of this map... so vary it in width in some places I think.

As for gameplay, shouldn't Tolna be Buda as Pest is on the other side of the river?

I feel like Austria ought to be more defensible given that it was the dominant state in the Empire. I figure, with historical maps, the areas that were dominant ought to be the more logical bonus a player ought to go for... in this case, its more like a transilvanian or Galacian empire. What about dividing Austria into two smaller, easier to attain bonuses? Or just increasing the impassables or fudging the borders.

Given the above, maybe reduce Galacia by 1 so the bonus is 2.

Your legend ought to read mountains, forests, rivers and lakes.

The dynamics of the thrones should be interesting and positive. I think it will prevent a player from stacking in an easy bonus and scoring the win. Players, I think, will need to fight two fronts, one for quick and easy bonuses and the other for the thrones. Any idea what kind of neutrals they will be packing?

I think and Autodeploy of 1 ought to be sufficient as we don't want the stacks to get too high too quickly as to make the thrones impossible to secure.

Lastly, I think the title could use a c. 1914 or something to indicate the era. I mean, if it were 1900 then Bosnia wouldn't be playable or if it were before 1868 it would be just the Austrian Empire.

Anyway, it's look great. i can't wait to play this one!
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Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 02 Jan

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:06 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


DimnjacarStef wrote:First of all: it's not Zagrab but Zagreb and it's misplaced. Real Zagreb is exactly on your border between Zagreb an Belovar. U can redraw the border more to the south and then u'll have Zagreb on the north and Karlovac on the south. Also, Belovar is Bjelovar if u want to keep this name of the territorry.
2. Poszega is ok but it will be more correct to call it Slavonia or Slavonien in German
3. Lika-Kravaba does not mean anything. Kravaba does not exist. U can call it only Lika. Krbava (u wrote Kravaba) is river in Lika
4. Dalmatien- it's ok if u want to have german names, but also u can call it Dalmatia


Zagreb should be in the right place now. Bjelovar was fixed.
Pozega borders were changed from the old version, is it good now?
Krbava removed.
Dalmatia fixed.

Industrial Helix wrote:Wow that is a beautiful update. Something about the mountains though... I think the shadows are too dark and nothing else on the map has that level of darkness. They could use some more integration with the land as well... like a smoother transition from land to mountains. And the river is too uniform to fit with the very natural look of this map... so vary it in width in some places I think.


Mountains have now a lighter shadow. The river, i know it sucks. I'll take care of it asap. Also the lake ;)

Industrial Helix wrote:As for gameplay, shouldn't Tolna be Buda as Pest is on the other side of the river?


Buda is placed inside pest, what is labelled with tolna on the map are Fejer and Tolna merged together.
Some places or borders could be slightly changed for gameplay reasons, you know. :)

Industrial Helix wrote:I feel like Austria ought to be more defensible given that it was the dominant state in the Empire. I figure, with historical maps, the areas that were dominant ought to be the more logical bonus a player ought to go for... in this case, its more like a transilvanian or Galacian empire. What about dividing Austria into two smaller, easier to attain bonuses? Or just increasing the impassables or fudging the borders.

Given the above, maybe reduce Galacia by 1 so the bonus is 2.


I've modified the borders, now kustenland border only with carniola, so austria has a total of 4 borders to defend.
Galicia is 3 because the distance from the austrian throne; you need to pass through 3 to reach the throne, on the opposite austria and hungary were lowered by 1 for the same reason.
I thought about to focus more on austria and hungary, i came up with a strange idea using adjusting reinforcements, but it was something too tricky...
Anyway if you have a good idea playing with bonuses / reinforcements, etc ... :mrgreen:

Industrial Helix wrote:Your legend ought to read mountains, forests, rivers and lakes.


Done

Industrial Helix wrote:The dynamics of the thrones should be interesting and positive. I think it will prevent a player from stacking in an easy bonus and scoring the win. Players, I think, will need to fight two fronts, one for quick and easy bonuses and the other for the thrones. Any idea what kind of neutrals they will be packing?

I think and Autodeploy of 1 ought to be sufficient as we don't want the stacks to get too high too quickly as to make the thrones impossible to secure.


About neutrals i was thinking about 3 for Upper austria, moravia, tolna, bacs bodrog, bihar. The same for lower austria and pest? they give access to the thrones, maybe 4 instead of 3?
Thrones must have higher values, i think. 5/10?
Dual monarchy, i thought about it with a bigger value at the start (15?), then it resets to 2.

Industrial Helix wrote:Lastly, I think the title could use a c. 1914 or something to indicate the era.


Added.

More thoughts about values are welcome! :D
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 02 Jan

Postby theBastard on Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:15 am

very nice Nobodies. I like this "natural" style from start...

some my notices:

the mountains need another colour. do them a little more brown/green/grey (the grey as you have now could be at the top of the highest hills.

+ to Helix´s notice - river and lake look as they are higher as land.

about names - there is question whit which versions you can go. becaue you use somewhere German names, somewhere Hungarian names, somewhere sllavs names. and maybe all regions could be names by regions - some regions have name by region, some by town. (just tell me if you can change it, I can help you with research ;) )

here is Hungary map with regions
Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 02 Jan

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:33 pm

Slap me silly and pay the bartender 80 nobodies! Its back! Lookin pretty fine, sly guy!
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 05 Jan

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:14 pm

Some changes:
  1. Istria replaced kustenland, borders were changed
  2. Northern, Central and Southern Bohemia instead of Liberec, Plzen and Ceske Budejovice.
  3. Cracow, Rzeszow, Lviv, Tarnopol replace Beskidy, Galicia Roztocze and Gotogori
  4. Poszega instead of Pozega
  5. Syrmia instead of Srijem
  6. Some work on lake and rivers, i've added two new rivers (Tisza and Mures approximately) and changed some hungarian borders

Click image to enlarge.
image


Thoughts about bonus values, starting neutrals? Anything gameplay related? 8-[
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 05 Jan

Postby The Bison King on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:49 pm

Looking great I love it!

Gameplay suggestion: what about a larger bonus for holding all (or a large percent) of either Austria or Hungary?
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 05 Jan

Postby theBastard on Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:30 am

looks great now.
I do not exactly understand - "Borders with the territory with the same symbol"...

The Bison King wrote:Gameplay suggestion: what about a larger bonus for holding all (or a large percent) of either Austria or Hungary?


maybe reduce other bonuses (Bohemia, Transylvania +1, Galicia/Londomeria +2, Croatia/Slavonia, Bosnia&Hercegovina +3, Austria, Hungary +5) and do larger bonuses for all (Cisleithanian + 4, Transleithanian +4)?

why is Transleithanian bonus twice larger as Cisleithanian bonus? I thin to secure all Austria is not easier as secure all Hungary...
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 05 Jan

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:19 am

My comp is showing question marks instead of your images now, nobodies. Is it just me?
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 05 Jan

Postby theBastard on Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:33 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:My comp is showing question marks instead of your images now, nobodies. Is it just me?


I can see update in the first post and also in this page...
check your comp ;)
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 05 Jan

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:06 pm

Lol, now its working.
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 05 Jan

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:18 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Thoughts about bonus values, starting neutrals? Anything gameplay related? 8-[

Some comments (now that I can see the pic, lol):
  1. The objective and throne mechanics are very, very nice.
  2. Because of the importance of the thrones, Id argue that the Hungary and Austria bonuses could be bumped up higher. I say Austria should be +7 and Hungary +8
  3. Specify your impassables, specifically the forests, as they are used simply for decoration in some areas.
  4. Why are the Cisleith and Transleith bonuses so different? I would think they should both be the same.

Thats all I got for now ;) Good work so far!

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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:18 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Another update.
I'll read the comments tomorrow in the morning. ;)
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:46 am

I like the map and the gameplay concept, but then I'm a sucker for historical maps. :D

As for the Thrones, several things strike me:
(1) The bonus is trivial enough (+3 at most, with 1 of that being autodeploy) that the neutrals aren't worth the effort of breaking unless a player is going for the victory objective. While +3 for 1 region seems like a good return, this is deceiving as one really needs to hold 6 regions or more to get the +2 bonus- and unless the Transleithanian/Cisleithanian bonus is Austria or Hungary, one will need to devote significant protection to keep it in the midst of enemy territory. Attacking neutral regions in open deployment games is always a big gamble that should be worth the effort- just think what killing 7 enemy armies could do, instead of killing 7 neutral armies does, and then consider that a player also has to hold what he takes- and so in this case I think that the resource cost is too high for the modest benefit.

Thus I think that the Throne bonus will only be sought in the late game, and only on certain game settings. This bothers me a bit because I think the Thrones should be a central feature of the gameplay from the start, especially with all of the legend space devoted to it.

I would suggest either lowering the neutrals on the Thrones- which will work, even from a victory objective standpoint as there are other neutrals regions to hack through first- or to increase the bonus, or both. As for the latter, one thing that might work is more of a build-a-bonus structure such as:
Austrian Throne + every 2 Cisleithanian terts = +1
Hungarian Throne + every 2 Transleithanian terts = +1
This sort of idea, of a throne consolidating power from the diverse elements of a whole area, seems very much in keeping with the patchwork nature of Austro-Hungarian authority. It would make the Thrones a mid- to late-game powerhouse and yet wouldn't diminish the importance of the 'continent' bonuses.

(2) The Dual Monarchy is a good idea but at 15 neutral isn't worth attacking, especially since the Throne itself isn't a bonus worth breaking with a mere bombardment. Why break a +3 bonus which can be easily retaken by an opponent- assuming the likely case that said opponent holds the connecting land region- through a 15-neutral stack that resets to 2, when one could probably just as easily break a regional bonus, killing enemy armies instead and getting the same effect or greater?

There are several ways to fix this. First, you could make the Thrones more worthwhile to attack/bombard as stated before. Second, you could make the Dual Monarchy an attack route to each Throne rather than bombardment, which would make it a path to obtaining the Victory Objective. Third, you could reduce the neutrals. Any or all of these things would make the Dual Monarchy a viable gameplay element.

(3) Question: does the Austro-Hungarian Condominium count as part of neither Cisleithania or Transleithania? I'm assuming that is the answer, although it could possibly be both...

Anyway, glad to see this map progressing.

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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:30 pm

I mostly agree with all you wrote, the only thing i don't like to change is to make the dual monarchy able to attack. I think it's better to have it as it is, in my mind it looks better. But I've noted this in the OP, if people will ask for the change, I'll take it into consideration. ;)

About neutrals, do you think something like in this version is better?

Click image to enlarge.
image


Pest and Lower Austria changed to 3 neutrals
Both Thrones with 4 neutrals
Dual Monarchy with 6 neutrals

MarshalNey wrote:(3) Question: does the Austro-Hungarian Condominium count as part of neither Cisleithania or Transleithania? I'm assuming that is the answer, although it could possibly be both...


Yes, Bosnia & Herzegovina is a sort of neutral place, for historical consistence. I was going to write something like: "it isn't part of any bonus" but it would look strange being written next to a bonus... :? ;)
So i used the minimaps, i think they explain what is part of Cisleithania or Transleithania.... No? :-k
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:06 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I mostly agree with all you wrote, the only thing i don't like to change is to make the dual monarchy able to attack. I think it's better to have it as it is, in my mind it looks better. But I've noted this in the OP, if people will ask for the change, I'll take it into consideration. ;)

I assume you are referring to the attack vs bombardment of the Dual Monarchy, yes? As far as that is concerned, I strongly agree with you, it should definitely be left as a bombardment and not an assault, the main reason being it promotes movement around the map more, as you would only be able to access the two objective points from the two, well, access points on the map. For that very reason, I still suggest a bonus increase for Austria and Hungary (+7 and +8, respectively).

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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby Jatekos on Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:45 am

Congrats for the map. It looks really nice, I am looking forward to play it.
I have a couple of suggestions:
- Accents on the Hungarian letters curve to the right, and not to the left. Veszprém and Szatmár is written correctly, but the accents on the other names look a bit strange for me. I think that the following names need to be updated: Nógrád, Máramaros (á was on the wrong place, too), Csík, Háromszék, Bács-Bodrog).
- Please also add a "-" to Maros-Torda.
- I like the colours used for the map, but I think Bosnia & Herzegovina's blue could be replaced with another colour. It looks like it had water regions, not lands (especially that it is next to the sea).
- The title of the map is also missing a hyphen. It should read "The Austro-Hungarian Empire".
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:08 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I mostly agree with all you wrote, the only thing i don't like to change is to make the dual monarchy able to attack. I think it's better to have it as it is, in my mind it looks better. But I've noted this in the OP, if people will ask for the change, I'll take it into consideration. ;)

About neutrals, do you think something like in this version is better?

Click image to enlarge.
image


Pest and Lower Austria changed to 3 neutrals
Both Thrones with 4 neutrals
Dual Monarchy with 6 neutrals

MarshalNey wrote:(3) Question: does the Austro-Hungarian Condominium count as part of neither Cisleithania or Transleithania? I'm assuming that is the answer, although it could possibly be both...


Yes, Bosnia & Herzegovina is a sort of neutral place, for historical consistence. I was going to write something like: "it isn't part of any bonus" but it would look strange being written next to a bonus... :? ;)
So i used the minimaps, i think they explain what is part of Cisleithania or Transleithania.... No? :-k


Sorry for the delayed response, I've been sick...

Yes, this looks much better. Keeping the Dual Monarchy as bombardment is fine, and Sully makes a good case for it. As for the the Condominium, yes I think it can logically be inferred to be neither Cisleithania or Transleithania, but I'm anticipating that some players might be unsure nevertheless without explicit information. It's not a big deal, many map legends require some inference as there's just not enough room to spell everything out.

Overall I'm content with the gameplay, but I'll ask the others to see what they think before giving this a sticky.

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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:22 am

If nodody voices any problems with the gameplay within the next two days, this map will be promoted.
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby Jatekos on Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:47 pm

Will the points I raised be addressed at a later stage?
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:04 pm

Jatekos wrote:Will the points I raised be addressed at a later stage?


About accents I can change all them; Do you notice other names that need a fix?
Also the title and maros-torda will be fixed asap. O:)
About serbia color, i'll be happy to play a bit more with it as soon as the map reaches the graphics stage.

thanks for your help :)
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:41 am

Notwithstanding the name changes, which I'm sure nobodies already has in hand, this map is overdue for Graphics. Onward and upward!

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Congratulations nobodies! =D>

PS I'm hoping to see more historical maps like this one... any more in the works?

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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby neanderpaul14 on Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:18 am

Looks awesome, love the look of the forests.

Can't wait to play it.
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby Jatekos on Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:58 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Do you notice other names that need a fix?

Nope. The Hungarian ones will be fine after the update. Unfortunately I am not familiar with all the other names.
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby theBastard on Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:06 pm

Jatekos wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:Do you notice other names that need a fix?

Nope. The Hungarian ones will be fine after the update. Unfortunately I am not familiar with all the other names.


what is the idea here, nobodies? to have all names correct in "its" language? if yes, I can help you with czech names...
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Re: Austro-Hungarian Empire - Update 07 Jan

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:45 pm

There was a Hungarian speaker who helped me with German Unification, I know he posted in the thread. Perhaps you could look him up if you need help with the Hungarian names.
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