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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby WidowMakers on Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:41 am

cairnswk wrote:WM, as one who has already created a hex style map (which was voted for by the punters), i give you my support to forge ahead with your latest creation here. I have always beleived that hex style would have a good part to play in CC, now that punters are possibly more-open to this style (since Actium).
But i also ask the foundry to consider that in creation of this map perhaps we can no longer deny other creations such as the beehive, yes??? :)
Thanks cairns. I was not sure if other people would like this map. It does not have much in the way of artistic taste. It is very exact and efficient, not much flair or style (unless that is a style).

I guess the engineer in me wanted to make another map to cram as much as I can into this map and see how BIG I can make it map (Maze Craze is the other).

The cool thing about this one is that it is a hex but it is not just a hex. By having the borders (an not just letting everyoen attack all 6 neighbors) the map will have a large feel but still be sectioned off well. It will look like a tight map but the GP will be setup (hopefully) to give more of a World 3.1 feel. We shall see.

The one thing this map does not have is a theme. Unless HUGE map with as many territories is a theme. lol

WM
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby WidowMakers on Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:52 am

SO I guess my main question is:Does anyone think this map should/shouldn't be done and why?

If you think it is dumb or has GP issues or looks stupid or whatever, please let me know. If there is a favorable response then i will get to work on the tert names and the borders. Then we can start talking some more.

Well?

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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby cena-rules on Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:19 am

I would like this to be done because I think that we need another large map that favours attacking
19:41:22 ‹jakewilliams› I was a pedo
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby WidowMakers on Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:57 pm

Version 2
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Updates:
    -fixed territory letters
    -removed borders between hex groups

To-Do:

    -Discuss Bonuses
    -Discuss hex group border placement
    -Discuss Legend wording
    -Discuss colors
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby Elijah S on Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:20 pm

I'm sorry, but to me this board looks boring... It doesn't seem to offer much in either aethetics or gameplay.
I guess the questions come to mind, is there a need, or demand for this style of map? Will it fare any better Actium in numbers of games played?
Are you creating something unique - or merely putting a tilt on something that's already been spun?
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby oaktown on Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:41 pm

WidowMakers wrote:SO I guess my main question is:Does anyone think this map should/shouldn't be done and why?

Wait, can we actually still asnwer that around here? I thought that after the recent tongue lashing some of us took we were only supposed to say nice things about each others' maps. :roll: But hey, since you asked...

WidowMakers wrote:If you think it is dumb or has GP issues or looks stupid or whatever, please let me know. If there is a favorable response then i will get to work on the tert names and the borders.

When I first saw this I failed to notice that your name is on it, WM. So my gut reaction was "great, somebody else is trying to squeeze as many territories as possible into the 630x600 pixel limitation, regardless of whether or not it looks like anything." So I was a little surprised to look through the thread and see your involvement - usually you are a little more particular about the work you present.

Do I think it is dumb or looks stupid: well, yes and yes. It's a dumb idea and it looks stupid. I mean come on, it's a field of hexagons. Why not a field of triangles? Or squares? In fact, why have any shapes whatsoever? Let's just put 200 army shadows out there and connect them with lines. In fact, we could usher in a whole new realm of map development here at CC - we'll call it one hour mapmaking. Stick a bunch of army circles against a white background, call it Uber Monster Mega Awesome Map, and you're done. It sure would make the Foundry process easier - no more pesky graphics requirements to have to meet.

Does it have GP issues... well, probably, but they could be worked out. Honestly there's nothing about this map that makes me care enough to figure out what those gameplay issues are. Is that little region equal to this little region, does node 1 have as many borders as node 3... I don't really care.

This map is, in my opinion, not a map. It's a hexagonal grid. If this grid were laid over a battlefield of some kind I could get behind it. Actium did it, and I know WM could do it if he put his mind to it.

As it is, it will have plenty of support because folks want a bigger map. And people will play it because it is a bigger map. So regardless of what I say - or what mibi is sure to say when he sees it - this map could be made with the "Simple GFX" that are mentioned in the first post. But it's not something I would ever want to put my name on, and it would further erode the pretty high standards we've had around here for the past three years.
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby WidowMakers on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:05 am

oaktown wrote:When I first saw this I failed to notice that your name is on it, WM. So my gut reaction was "great, somebody else is trying to squeeze as many territories as possible into the 630x600 pixel limitation, regardless of whether or not it looks like anything." So I was a little surprised to look through the thread and see your involvement - usually you are a little more particular about the work you present.
Thanks for being honest here oak. I appreciate it.

oaktown wrote:Do I think it is dumb or looks stupid: well, yes and yes. It's a dumb idea and it looks stupid. I mean come on, it's a field of hexagons. Why not a field of triangles? Or squares? In fact, why have any shapes whatsoever? Let's just put 200 army shadows out there and connect them with lines. In fact, we could usher in a whole new realm of map development here at CC - we'll call it one hour mapmaking. Stick a bunch of army circles against a white background, call it Uber Monster Mega Awesome Map, and you're done. It sure would make the Foundry process easier - no more pesky graphics requirements to have to meet.
First off I will comment on the triangles, squares and no shapes whatsoever. Hexagons are used because they have 6 sides and that allows for more border options that triangles, or squares and it is a repeatable pattern as well. Plus the 888 fit inside very well along with the name. So the Hexes were picked for purely the layout and max amount of territories while allowing for the most border possibilities.

Well the one hour map making is not really accurate either. I had to do quite a bit of math and initial layout to figure the best and max number I could get in here. Plus to eliminate the need for bonus naming and legend size (which robs the map of territory space) I had to figure out a good way to give bonuses but not name them on the actual map. By having 3,6,9,12,and 15 hex groups, the GP allows for a wide variety and number of bonus groups and the nodes were added to bring the 380 (19x20) number down to 345 so it would be divisible by 3 and this allow for teh hex groups. Plus the node allow for fast movement around the map.
oaktown wrote:Does it have GP issues... well, probably, but they could be worked out. Honestly there's nothing about this map that makes me care enough to figure out what those game play issues are. Is that little region equal to this little region, does node 1 have as many borders as node 3... I don't really care.

I am sure there are GP issues and I am sure they could get worked out.
I decided to start this map for a couple reasons.
    1) GP is the same whether I have a 5000x5000 fictional map or a 630x600 hex map. This small version allows for 350 territories that would not be possible any other way
    2) People have asked for larger maps
    3) A map that was easy to understand and had basic game play with TONS of territories would work great for a Battle Royale (but not only for that)

oaktown wrote:This map is, in my opinion, not a map. It's a hexagonal grid. If this grid were laid over a battlefield of some kind I could get behind it. Actium did it, and I know WM could do it if he put his mind to it.
Yes it is a grid. And yes I could put some background behind it. But if I did that I would lose 200+ territories and it would become a completely different animal.

oaktown wrote:As it is, it will have plenty of support because folks want a bigger map. And people will play it because it is a bigger map. So regardless of what I say - or what mibi is sure to say when he sees it - this map could be made with the "Simple GFX" that are mentioned in the first post. But it's not something I would ever want to put my name on, and it would further erode the pretty high standards we've had around here for the past three years.
Once again I appreciate teh post. I actually agree with most things you say.

There really is no theme, it is very simple and some people might not think it is a map.
But the only way to make a map with 350 territories that are all playable with 888 and bonuses and standard GP (not just a group like the yard in Prison Riot) this is the only way.
Whether I do it or player ABC does it, if we want a GP option with this many territories at these current sizes, this is thhe only way.

However, like I said before, I will take suggestions and all of the remarks into account. If the people want a big map with no theme, then I will do it if no one else will. If people don't, then I won't.

Plus oak, I have tons more ideas that I can exercise my right brain.
But this map is for my "engineering , math based, be as efficient as I can and pack as much stuff into a small space technical left brain". lol

Please others, I would like more opinions.
Thanks
WM

P.S.. Conquerman was actually easier to do than this. Based on the time involved and the actual GP mechanics, that is the simplest (Graphically) map I did. Only thing saving it is that it has a theme.
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby WidowMakers on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:15 am

Elijah S wrote:I'm sorry, but to me this board looks boring... It doesn't seem to offer much in either aethetics or gameplay.
I guess the questions come to mind, is there a need, or demand for this style of map? Will it fare any better Actium in numbers of games played?
Are you creating something unique - or merely putting a tilt on something that's already been spun?

1)Battle of Actium has 96 territories and 13 bonus groups (ranging from 2-13 armies)
2) This map has 350 territories and 50 bonus groups (ranging from 1-10 armies)

Over 3.5X more terts and over 4X more bonus groups. 8 player games each player starts with 43 territories.

The style of map is HUGE, standard GP map. No bombarding, no killer neutrals, no complicated bonus structure.

So while I agree the aesthetics are lacking (and there is nothing that can be done if you want 350 terts in 630x600)
the GP is very unique since no other map can drop what this map does.

That is what will sell the map. Unique GP with 350 terts
This is what will kill the map. No theme and simple image.

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Re: Jumbo Hex Map

Postby Elijah S on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:41 am

In looking at the Actium number of plays, 5482 games have been played in one year & 9 1/2 months. -Which isn't a relatively large number of plays. -It breaks down into about 12.5 games per day.
So I have to question whether or not there's truly that big a demand for a map of this kind.
That being said - the other 2 maps that come to mind having considerably more territories than most, are Peloponesia and Waterloo, and both of those have fared quite a bit better.
So maybe there is a reasonable, but not huge demand for this map style... but, I think that going too basic with the graphics will result in less plays.

In agreement with Oaktown - and seeing the imaginative and graphic ability in your other projects - looking at this map seems like "how can I get that many territories in that small a space?"
Perhaps having fewer territories for the sake of adding some visual appeal would be a worthwhile consideration?
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map *V2*

Postby mattosaurus on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:39 am

The reason I don't play the actium map is that it's confusing. All the territories get confused because of the map behind and the garrish colors. This appears simple with simple rules and very straight forward gameplay along with the bonus of having the huge number of territories, which I haven't seen before. That's why I like this map idea. We currently have no map like this and even if the map is only played 12 games a day, is it a problem with server space? This forum takes up as much space on the server as a map does. Do the maps have to be an exclusive club? I thought this site was to allow everyone the ability to play against others members, and a big part of that is having new maps with different gameplay that make it much more interesting. I believe this map to be unique enough to get in. I think we're all stuck in the rut that all maps should be like the original risk map, and because of this we have 80-90% of all the maps being between 40 and 50 territories. People are scared of many territory maps. I personally think they give the best gameplay. My favorite map is World 2.1 which has 112 territories, and I play it not because it has a good view of the world, or because its a map, but because having a ton of territories and bonus areas, which this map has even more of. I think we should all get off our high rockers and start approving more maps. The only reason to not have that many maps is because its hard to find a map you want, which I am working on organizing the maps and creating a tool so you can search for maps by size, bonus type and other features. This will help everyone to realize that many maps that get tossed could have worked and been enjoyed, but people are afraid of change, no matter what it is, and that's why so many good ideas get shot down. There is plenty of server space available in the world. I mean, we keep a record of every game that's ever been played. That surely takes more space. Anyway, sorry about the rant, its just something I feel strongly about.
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map *V2*

Postby mattosaurus on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:48 am

Oh yeah, I forgot comments on the actual map, first, I'm glad you're keeping it simple. Keep it that way. You might make it better by making it a bit more visually appealing though, with a cool name. You could call it Hex Wars, Battle of the Hexagons, Honeycomb, or something else similar. That would get more interest and attract more people. Maybe change it from a white background. I'd still use a neutral color, such as black, or something. I think the font is good though, it fits in the Hex/ programming type theme. If you change the theme to a honeycomb idea the font and things will probably need to change, but hey, that's doable right? The Lines between territories are hard to see in all but the purple color. That might be something to work on as well.
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map *V2*

Postby MrBenn on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:06 am

I personally think the map would have more appeal if it had some sort of graphical hook to it... something like Pixel World would have a lot more potential.

Here's my take on the direction that I would want to take the map, if it were my project... you could still break the continents up into smaller regions, and represent them using variegated colours, but this is my 5-minute interpretation...
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map *V2*

Postby WidowMakers on Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:23 pm

I am looking into Mr Benns idea. Basically I would try to keep the same layout but edit how I do the borders.

Right now the names are: A1-20 --- S1-S20

My idea is to name them based on the continent the occupy:

N. America = N
S. Americ = S
Europe = E
Africa = F
Oceania = O
Asia = A

Water would be :
Pacific = P
Atlantic = L
Indian = I
Arctic = T

Then I would sub divide them based on countries/regions by 3-9 hexes per and bonuses accordingly
Then entire regions (similar to World 2.1)

But i need to figure out how to make the oceans not over power the land since there is much more.
I think this will probably require the loss of at least 1 row of hexes but we shall see.

I don't really want to but it is apparent that this map is not popular in its current form.
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Re: Jumbo Hex Map *V2*

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:53 pm

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made. ;-)

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Re: Jumbo Hex Map *V2*

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:12 pm

What a shame. I liked the idea behind this map. I'd never have the patience to play it, but I liked the idea.
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