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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 5) Game-play in debate

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:38 am

Hi Captain! Could you specify a little bit more the ‘story’ part. How could it be added ? in what way? – that could be interesting.

As for the bonus, I’m working on bonus pairs, is something that made perfect sense to me since the beginning when I first thought about this map. It’s taking the concept of Age of Realms, but trying to make all bonus more identifiable on map.

I wanted all races to be perfectly recognizable – being so, we have the Elven town that gives +1 a/d, but paired with the elven training ground will add 1 more troop to deployment bonus; the Gorks and their respective training ground; the human village that could pair either with the horseman t.g. or with the warrior t.g. Of course I had to make a reference to the 2 towers and his powers... to the Dwarfs... Well, all those bonus will definitely make the map a lot more juicy and will help making Tolkien's visions come alive in CC (I hope) :)

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DOA map updated! V6

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:02 pm

Last edited by Kabanellas on Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 6)

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:10 pm

Nice work K!
I love this map. :)

I'd like to see "the house of gods" listed in the legend...
Are Woods impassable? It isn't explained on the map
About bonuses....
If i have a gorks camp and a gorks training ground i'll receive a +1 bonus. this is clear.
But if i have 2 gorks camp and 1 training? or 2 gorks training and 1 camp?
For example if i hold all gorks camps and all training grounds i will receive a +9 or only a +1 or a +3 ?

About gateways, i don't think you need letters or numbers on the map
gateway 1 is Damkianna gatewawy, Gateway A is Khnum gateway...i think it's clear and easy. ;)

About graphic, only a thing...
I'm not a big fan of your "little white/black squares" border, but it's only a personal choice and i have nothing against if you want to keep it ;)
And maybe some names are a bit difficult to read. (grut for example).

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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 6)

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:11 pm

Yes, putting the house of gods in the legend makes some sense… On the other side I could do a parallel to both towers and make a direct connection to the region itself. The Tower of Control doesn’t appear on the legend because it’s defined by the region itself, the same can happen for the House of Gods.

The woods in Logoth are not passable except for that corridor that opens South Logoth to Ralaq-marsan. North Logoth can one-way attack otter regions. Don’t know if you’re much into the ‘Tolkien thing’, but Logoth here represents the 'Dark Elves' from Tolkien’s books.

The bonus in most cases only work in pairs – so if you have 2 Gork camps and 1 Gork training ground (GTG) you’ll still get just 1 bonus troop. Being so – you can achieve a maximum of 3 bonus troops when holding all Gork’s camps and all GTGs (3 pairs)

About Dwarf’s gates…. Yes that’s probably a good idea :) – we could name them by the region they connect to.

The’ black and white square border’ is a graphic thing that takes me to that map genre – as seen in books or game boards. I’ve tried some different things though… but I wasn’t able to find anything that satisfied me more…. Yet :)

As for the font style… well, I’ve tried a lot of them – this one might not be perfect, I know... but was the best I could find. I need them to have a ‘manuscript’ look, and still be readable – not easy...
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:34 am

DOA map updated:

Version 7

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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby barterer2002 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:41 pm

OK, I've been called in to give some ideas and a fresh (hopefully) look.

1). What is the Dwarf's passage? The legend says that they can attack adjacent exterior regions which would seem to be a reasons to hold one of those places however couldn't Khnum already attack Damkiananna and Anshar? Or are you allowed to attack any tert along the dwarf's passage that has an entrance? And if so, I think the legend language should read something more like "can one way attack any other Dwarf gateway tert. And if not then I'm not sure what it is other than another bonus structure.

2). I kind of think that Raider's Haven is too powerful here. Not only are you giving it an autodeploy on each turn but its also able to attack every other port-without reprisal from those same ports. I kind of think only one of these advantages is needed/useful and it seems to me that the one way attack fits into what you want the story to be and the auto deploy is just needless.

3). Why is the tower of control starting with 3 while the tower of doom, raider's haven and the elven towns at 4 while the House of gods starts at 6 (and I think they're all neutral)

4). why is the bonus higher for holding a human village and a training ground than it is for Gork/Elvan and training ground. They don't seem to be more difficult to hold or obtain so why is the bonus structure different?

5). Why is North Logoth starting Neutral? Is it really that important a tert that it needs a neutral start?

6). Is the Logoth bonus of +2 too high. There are only two terts and one only one entrance to attack.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:59 pm

Kabanellas...i've been called in for a preliminary look at your map ;)

1st impression is that i like the look of this. It's fine art work coupled with appropriate font and good icon work. :) And i love the Raiders Heaven tert with that skull harbour. I think the background colour works well also, although some woudl think it too bland.

What is all that "haze/things" around N.L. and S.L.? Is it forest?

Gameplay i will leave until later as i know that is being worked on.

My main concern will be with the legibility of the map in small version size of 630(max) px wide, and will it be too cramped at that size. Have you considered that and ways around that.

Are you able to show a small version at this point?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby captainwalrus on Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:34 pm

For the story, I mean like a few lines that say like "In the dawn of ages war between elves dwarfs blah blah blah...." Something that sets the scene.

Also, tower of doom and tower of control should have more nuturals and a bigger bonus. The tower of doom needs to live up to it's name.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Danyael on Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:28 pm

this is a nice looking map clean ink style
a glance at a small map is a good idea there are a lot of symbols that could look close to or the same in appearance when made small or hard to make out period
so what to do
I think removing some of the redundancies in the legend
I think you should be able to work it differently
i.e. Put the horsemen name over or under the images in the bonus scale
this would create a lot of extra space helping worth the sizing of the small
i'm not a fan of the cut off border around the map reason way your map looks awesome then the cut off border make the whole thing look half assed to be blunt
but to each there own
as well is there a reason for the arrows and glow on some of the dwarf gates
I also believe you could make graphically better icons for the bridges and the gates are kinda super sharp

i like this map it has a lot of potential
with a early look at a small version and a little more foundation on the gameplay i think this would be ready to move up
of course the op needs to be set up in a better manner how many starting regions :?: ;)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:47 am

Prelim review time!

Well, the art work is fantastic on this map, I really like the approach you've taken with it. Some of the stuff looks a little pixelated, dwarves entrances and bridges, you might want to adjust that at some point.

The text on the territories is a tad hard to read. It doesn't help that its not English so my word recognition is just down the toilet. I'd suggest increasing the size of the font or going with a totally new one.

The legend... I think you need to combine what the symbols mean with what they're worth.

Small version is gonna be a problem, I suspect. You might want to address it sooner rather than later.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:17 am

Barterer, I don’t know if I got your doubts right… but let me try to explain how Dwarfs’ Gates work.

-The Dwarf’s Gate in Khnum is an entry to the underground caves (it has 2 red arrows in it). Being so; from Khnum (region) you can assault and conquer ‘Khnum’s entry gate’ and then assault ‘Damkianna’s gate’; from Damkianna (region) you CAN’T assault ‘Damkianna’s gate’ but you can be assaulted by it. The Gates (not the entries) have a one-way assault capability.
Also, you gain a bonus for holding an entry and a gate or a group of gates.

-I’ll keep your concerns about Raider’s Haven on mind….

-The ‘Tower Of Control’ starts with 3 neutral because it doesn’t have an auto-deploy bonus attached to it. The others do have (Elven town, Tower Of Doom and the Raider’s Haven), so it makes some sense to raise those neuts a bit.

- Actually they do worth the same in the end… Elves will also get those +2 but in a different way – 1 in free deploy and 1 in auto-deploy. Because those are different races I wanted them to have different attributes.

-Logoth only gives a +1 bonus, I’ve adjusted it in the last versions already :). Those neutral troops in NL are there to prevent an easy bonus for someone having a lucky drop.

Cairnswk, thanks a lot! This map was 95% drawn by me directly on the PC… So I’ve got a special feeling for every little curve there, especially the Raider’s Haven skull :)
I’ll start working on the small version now. (P.S. – yes, those are trees and do represent a forest)

Captainwalrus - I’ll try to sort something out… (those Dwarf Runes in the top do say something ;))

Danyael, thanks. I’ll keep that in mind – reducing the legend. As for the cut-off border, that’s a personal thing I guess, I do prefer to avoid the obvious which would be keeping all inside that frame….

Helix, thanks for the support :) – I’m totally available to make a font style change there (as long as it has that manuscript look). I just couldn’t find one that I like more than this. Open to suggestions though…
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:52 am

Kabanellas wrote:-The ‘Tower Of Control’ starts with 3 neutral because it doesn’t have an auto-deploy bonus attached to it. The others do have (Elven town, Tower Of Doom and the Raider’s Haven), so it makes some sense to raise those neuts a bit.
Well why not give it an autodeploy. My point is that "the tower of control" deserves a high auto deploy, and therefore high naturals
Captainwalrus - I’ll try to sort something out… (those Dwarf Runes in the top do say something ;))
Ohh, what does it say?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:11 pm

I choose not give the Tower of Control any auto-deploy ability because it has already a lot of power for it can bombard 4 bonus giving regions without retaliation...

the runes say something like this:

In the dawn of ages a man as come
to conquer all. May the dead arise
and the living run, for no one shall
pass unnoticed.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Danyael on Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:25 pm

Kabanellas wrote:Danyael, thanks. I’ll keep that in mind – reducing the legend. As for the cut-off border, that’s a personal thing I guess, I do prefer to avoid the obvious which would be keeping all inside that frame….


i like the way you like think
but if you make it cut off nice like you did by the radier's haven (close to the land graphics)
at the other places i.e near the kaball this will improve the look of it 10 fold
as well where it cuts off near the bottom left corner
but i do agree its a personal preference
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:36 am

I'll keep that in mind... anyway, small version is ready:

V7 small
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby lt_oddball on Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:18 am

Bland map, but so were the originals from Tolkien. So I dig it.
Now practically:


1)Legend +2 troops: village dots plus horse and village dots plus shield/sword:
problem WHICH village ? Addar or Akhenat ? Any of both villages with any of both elements ?

2) legend . + 1 tr. auto-deploy --->save space and be clear---> +1 troop auto-deply
or make at least "trp" for troop.

3) legend, Dwarf's gateway:
"one way assault exterior regions" unclear: one way in 2 directions ?
Assume I have "Grut" can I then choose between one way assault Anshar and Ralaq-marshan ?
If one way all the way (clockwise, anticlockwise) then indicate with arrows on the map.

4) All lagoths ---> Both Lagoths

5) legend: Ports all connect to Hellnor.
But does Hellnor return connect to all ports ?

6) Legend Skull port of Raiders HAven:"can"one way assault..
---> leave out the "can"; one way assault all ports

7) one raider boat on map moves TOWARDS the Raiders Haven skull.
Not consistent with its one way assault direction.; flip the vessel

8.) make the bridges a bit wider/clearer
or mention them/function in the legend.
And in legend : thick bush around logoth are unpassable (example)


must go now.
cheers
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:32 am

Hmm... took a look at a few fonts out there inspired by lotr, this site had a few that might work:

http://www.fontspace.com/category/J.R.R.+Tolkien

I liked Hobbiton and Bilbo Hand... seem to match the font in the maps drawn by Tolkien... but I can see how its a bit hard. Perhaps increasing the size of the current font might help (I know you're pressed for room, but you might be able to get away with it).
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby MichelSableheart on Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:49 am

First of all, the general style of your map looks great. It gives of a good feeling for what you're shooting for. Based on the looks alone, I would play it.

On the other hand, there is a lot going on. I'm affraid it won't be easy at all to understand your map. There are 17 different symbols on your map, 4 different types of impassables, 3 different types of special connections, plus some decorations. Looking at your map alone, I have no idea what's going on. If I look at your legend, to the bottom left, I'm still confused, as that legend doesn't tell me what each symbol does. The legend on the bottom right does tell me what each symbol does, but it doesn't make a connection to what each symbol represents, making things difficult to understand. Your map looks extremely complicated, and only after careful study do I get a feeling of what everything does.

Is it possible to simplify? Personally, I would drop the island, Raiders Haven, all harbours, the two towers, the receptacles and (possibly) the raiders. This would allow you to focus on the different races, which each could (should?) be unique.

On another note, is it really necessary to change the name of the orcs? True, the word originated from tolkien, but it has become a staple in modern fantasy, comparable to elves and dwarves. Are you sure it's copyrighted? And what about goblin as an alternative?

Finally, even though the runes do translate into a poem, there are very few people familiar enough with tolkien's runes to translate it. I think it would be better if it is actually readable for the majority of people.

Sorry for the large amount of complaining. Your map does look like it has a lot of potential.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:37 pm

lt_oddball wrote:Bland map, but so were the originals from Tolkien. So I dig it.
Now practically:


1)Legend +2 troops: village dots plus horse and village dots plus shield/sword:
problem WHICH village ? Addar or Akhenat ? Any of both villages with any of both elements ?

2) legend . + 1 tr. auto-deploy --->save space and be clear---> +1 troop auto-deply
or make at least "trp" for troop.

3) legend, Dwarf's gateway:
"one way assault exterior regions" unclear: one way in 2 directions ?
Assume I have "Grut" can I then choose between one way assault Anshar and Ralaq-marshan ?
If one way all the way (clockwise, anticlockwise) then indicate with arrows on the map.

4) All lagoths ---> Both Lagoths

5) legend: Ports all connect to Hellnor.
But does Hellnor return connect to all ports ?

6) Legend Skull port of Raiders HAven:"can"one way assault..
---> leave out the "can"; one way assault all ports

7) one raider boat on map moves TOWARDS the Raiders Haven skull.
Not consistent with its one way assault direction.; flip the vessel

8.) make the bridges a bit wider/clearer
or mention them/function in the legend.
And in legend : thick bush around logoth are unpassable (example)


must go now.
cheers


Thanks oddball for the comments, I’ll try to answer all your questions:

1) All 5 human villages worth the same and can be paired with horsemen training ground or warrior training ground.
2) I’ll try to fit something more there…
3) I’ve explained in pg 2 how Dwarf gates work. (if you own Grut, first you’ll have to assault ‘Grut’s Gate Entry’ then assault ‘Ralaq-marsan’s Gate’, and the you can assault Ralaq-marsan. But from Ralaq-marsan you won’t be able to assault ‘Ralaq-marsan’s Gate’)
4) I’ll try to fit the word Both instead of All :)
5) Actually I haven’t decided that yet………..
6) Well… I could do that – one way assault all ports
7) The 2 boats are there to give some dynamic to that area – and pirates/raiders do have to return after making some raids
8 )8) I think that naming them bridges is quite enough to refer to their function….
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:52 pm

Helix, thanks a lot! I’ve been checking those fonts and there’s lots of juicy stuff there. I’ll try them for sure.

MichelSableheart thanks for commenting!

MichelSableheart wrote:..Is it possible to simplify? Personally, I would drop the island, Raiders Haven, all harbours, the two towers, the receptacles and (possibly) the raiders. This would allow you to focus on the different races, which each could (should?) be unique.


I couldn't have a Tolkien's Middle Earth based map without having The Two Towers (definitely), the Lost Island represents Valar (also needed), The Raiders Haven are the Pirates that haunted Middle Earth and do spice things a bit in the board game.

MichelSableheart wrote:...On another note, is it really necessary to change the name of the orcs? True, the word originated from tolkien, but it has become a staple in modern fantasy, comparable to elves and dwarves. Are you sure it's copyrighted? And what about goblin as an alternative?

Finally, even though the runes do translate into a poem, there are very few people familiar enough with tolkien's runes to translate it. I think it would be better if it is actually readable for the majority of people.

Sorry for the large amount of complaining. Your map does look like it has a lot of potential.


Well, actually Elves and Dwarfs have been used in common mythology for centuries, specially in Scandinavian’s mythology. They’re definitely nobody's intellectual property.

The word ORC comes from the latin word Orcus (one of the names of God Pluto – The Lord Of The Underworld). But the meaning that we now give to the word was introduced by Tolkien himself. Therefore to avoid copyright issues we should stick to the word Gorks.

as for the runes... I like them for the looks, for how they graphically enrich the map, not for their meaning... though they have a meaning.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby sinctheassasin on Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:01 am

Wow!!! Stickied all ready??? :shock: how the hEll'd you do that???

Not dissin your map or anythng, I actually really like it.

I just have to say that probably only hardcore conquerors will play this map due to its reletive complexity. I for one would not have the patience to read all the rules unless it came up on random.

But you guys have worked hard in the weeks it's been in this cursed room
and fr that, I salute you =D>

Conquer crater has been here six months, and still no sticky or stamp, this is why I'm gettng over emotonal about this being stickied... :cry:
Woop Woop, i love conquer club, why'd i leave for a year?
Who LIkes finishing what they started? :D
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:06 am

Thanks Sync! :) The map is nooot that complex... I think that in a second approach people will get the feeling of it. And after all.. Tolkien's world was complex.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby MichelSableheart on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:08 am

I couldn't have a Tolkien's Middle Earth based map without having The Two Towers (definitely), the Lost Island represents Valar (also needed), The Raiders Haven are the Pirates that haunted Middle Earth and do spice things a bit in the board game.
What time period are you shooting for? The two towers were only truly relevant during the war of the ring, IIRC. Valar and Numenor OTOH weren't important during the war of the ring. And I don't remember pirates being significant in either the Silmarillion, the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings.

I think you're making a huge misjudgement about how complex the map is, and I strongly belief you need to simplify. If you insist on keeping everything in, perhaps you should make things more uniform.

For example, I think it would be better if you created a "special location" symbol. Place it on the tower of doom, tower of control and the house of gods. All of them function as a simple +1 autodeploy; don't mess around with bombardment or receptacles. This keeps them on the map while also reducing the complexity.

Similary, I think you should uniformize the races that have a symbol on the map. In other words:
The following combinations give a +1 bonus:
  • elven town + elven training ground;
  • Human village + warriors training ground;
  • Human village + horsemen training ground;
  • Gorks camp + Gorks training ground;
  • Raiders inn + Raiders training ground;
  • Dark elf village + Dark elf training ground.
That way, even though there are a lot of symbols on the map, most of them work the same. Furthermore, you lose the odd "hold all logoths for a +1" which was different from everything else on the map.

To make the ports more easily understood, you could draw connections between them. For example, Mishyelly (sp? can't read it) connects to Akherat; Akherat connects to Hellnor, Hellnor connects to Tehl. Or you should let all ports connect to each other. They definately should all function the same, rather then Hellnor being different.

I don't see why the one way attacks from Norhtern Logoth are necessary. Again, they are something not found anywhere else on the map, adding to complexity for little gain. Can't you just make it connect to 1 or 2 territories, just like southern Logoth?

Also, in a lot of places, you use forests as decoration, but aroung the Logoths you use them as impassables. Perhaps you should remove the decorative forests to reduce the possible confusion with either impassable forests or the Gorks camps?

Finally, I think you make an unneccesary distinction between dwarg gateway entries and dwarf gateways. I think it would be easier to understand as those all functioned teh same: as countries inside countries that are connected to each other. If you do this, you may want to move them to avoid having them connect coutnries that are next to each other.

Thanks Sync! The map is nooot that complex... I think that in a second approach people will get the feeling of it. And after all.. Tolkien's world was complex.
I'm affraid players won't take that second approach.When they see a lot of symbols on the map, quite a few will go "that's complex, I'll look for something easier". And quite a lot of those willing to put in the effort of reading the legend, will leave after that because the legend isn't easily understandable either.

The word ORC comes from the latin word Orcus (one of the names of God Pluto – The Lord Of The Underworld). But the meaning that we now give to the word was introduced by Tolkien himself. Therefore to avoid copyright issues we should stick to the word Gorks.
I know that this meaning was introduced by Tolkien. But he isn't the only one to use it. Warcraft, Warhammer, D&D and Magic the Gathering, to name a few of the top of my head, all use orcs. They've become just as staple a part of fantasy as elves and dwarves, IMO.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby AndrewB on Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:01 pm

There are simple and there are complex maps available. Some players like simple ones and some love complex.

But both of them have chance for the existence. If the complexity of the map is the issue for you Michel, then maybe you wouldn't play it?

I see that you have played only 5 games on 4 unique maps at all. Not sure, why would you request to simplify it at all? Why don't you give a try to Waterloo map or Poison Rome first, then call this map complex.

I am sorry Michel, not to sound disrespectful, but I don't think you are qualified to talk about the "complexity" of any of maps at all.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages (Version 7)

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:54 pm

Well, Andrew pretty much said it all there.

Anyway Michel, this map is obviously focusing on ‘The Lord Of The Rings’ era in Tolkien’s Middle Earth. As you may know, if you are a Tolkien’s fan, all his worlds from Beleriand to Eriador are full of little features, secrets and mystic powers, and ALL races have different attributes. Again, I wouldn’t be making (MY) Tolkien’s based map game if I was making it like a flat, classic, risk board game.

(btw, Valar is present in every era described by Tolkien – remember that in the end of the LOTR, the Elves sailed back home, to Valar) (also, Valar here, represents the basic philosophy subjacent in all Tolkien’s tales – Good Vs Evil – House of Gods Vs Tower of Doom)

The changes you’re asking for would just destroy all that, both me and Andrew, are trying to achieve here.

I’d very much like your opinions IF they’re not destructive and as long as they're based on this project, with the complexity it deserves.

K
Last edited by Kabanellas on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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