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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby danryan on Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:49 pm

I dunno. Have to play the map with the changes first. Definitely the bonuses get picked up in single player even with the 3 neuts, because they are so powerful. House of Gods should probably be worth more since it is a dead end?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:59 pm

I'll have to finish my current games before I can comment on this.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby MrBenn on Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:33 pm

I'm just updating some of the guidance I post with the Beta stamp; here's an addendum to it ;-)

While the map is in BETA Play, there are a couple of administrative tasks that are required of the mapmaker(s) in addition to the initial gameplay testing:
    1. Please ensure that the first post of the thread contains all the necessary information to help future visitors to the development thread; it's particularly important to ensure the most recent images are there, along with any helpful guides (such as gameplay quirks/nuabces or the location/size of any starting neutrals etc.)
    2. Please update the Map Information Portal with details of your map
    3. Finally, it is the responsibility of the mapmaker(s) to ensure that they respond to further feedback in a timely and constructive manner.


--MrBenn
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby anthroguy on Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:57 pm

This is a beautiful and unique map!

I have one very minor nagging complaint that will be easy to fix: For Dwarves Stronghold, saying "can one way assault the region where it's built in" is grammatically incorrect. It should be changed to, "can one-way assault the region in which it is built." Notice also that the term one-way is hyphenated. That should be fixed also for the description of North Logoth.

Maybe (though it's not necessary) you could also change "volcano eruption" in the upper-left corner of the map to "volcanic eruption."

Thanks for this awesome map.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby ender516 on Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:21 pm

Yes, that grammar bothered me too. Other wordings, perhaps shorter if space is an issue (and when is it not an issue on a CC map?): "can one-way assault the region where it stands" or "can one-way assault the region it occupies", but many CC users have a particularly militaristic sense of the word "occupy" which might lead to confusion. Maybe "can one-way assault the surrounding region", but that may be too long as well.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - Suggestions

Postby fumandomuerte on Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:46 pm

Kabanellas wrote:well, after some testing, I came to the conclusion that neutral regions play a big part in this map - actually they end not playing any part at all in team games. Players will rarely assault a neutral terr to get a bonus here.
I'm definitely recommending drooping some of those neutral troops numbers:
-Elvish towns Egil-Oroth from 4 to 3 and Aesir-Vanir from 4 to 2


Don't like it, why not leaving them with 4 neutrals just like Raiders' Haven? They have similar connections and properties (1 troop autodeployed, and both connected with 3 important territories, ports for Raiders' Haven, Towers and the Sea Dragon for elvish towns).
My 2 cents, for the rest I like your changes.

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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:55 pm

I'd say it'd be good to reduce neutrals on egil-oroth and aesir-vanir. In the start when people scramble for bonuses, those who drop next to human villages have an advantage - as they give a nice +2 bonus with little work to do. Less neutrals on the elf villages would balance this out a bit.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - Suggestions

Postby MarshalNey on Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:06 pm

Kabanellas wrote:well, after some testing, I came to the conclusion that neutral regions play a big part in this map - actually they end not playing any part at all in team games. Players will rarely assault a neutral terr to get a bonus here.

I'm definitely recommending drooping some of those neutral troops numbers:

-Humans should all be dropped from 3 to 2
-Orks all levelled to 2 as well
-Elvish towns Egil-Oroth from 4 to 3 and Aesir-Vanir from 4 to 2
-Raiders' Shadowlands from 3 to 2
-Dwarves Strongholds should all drop 1troop to their actual count (as seen in the map below)
-North Logoth should drop from 4 to 3

-Also recommend raising Kaball's border, disabling South Logoth from having a second line of defence in Ralaq Marsan.

-1 Receptacle added to The Hillmen


I like these proposed changes. The neutrals in the 3 games I'm playing are too high in some regions to ever be considered, unless you're really desperate. No way is anyone going to even bother with some of the nuances like the House of Gods, when you're just trying to survive on such a small map (well, in terms of starting territories anyway).
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:03 am

I'm not sure how the XML is coded so I'll ask... sorry if this is a dumb question. Can the same human village be used twice for a bonus?

For example, if you have one human village, one horsemen t.g. and one warriors t.g, do you get the bonus for both pairs?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:23 am

no Natty. you won't get additional bonus for holding an extra human training ground. You'd have to get another village.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:29 am

Ok, thanks. I kinda suspected that was the case.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby AndrewB on Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:39 am

Kabanellas wrote:no Natty. you won't get additional bonus for holding an extra human training ground. You'd have to get another village.


That is correct.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:48 am

anthroguy wrote:This is a beautiful and unique map!

I have one very minor nagging complaint that will be easy to fix: For Dwarves Stronghold, saying "can one way assault the region where it's built in" is grammatically incorrect. It should be changed to, "can one-way assault the region in which it is built." Notice also that the term one-way is hyphenated. That should be fixed also for the description of North Logoth.

Maybe (though it's not necessary) you could also change "volcano eruption" in the upper-left corner of the map to "volcanic eruption."

Thanks for this awesome map.


I'll post an updated version soon.

thanks :)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:03 am

Revised neutral starters (less neutral troops for better game-play)

-Humans should all be dropped from 3 to 2
-Natural enemies of settlements should be easier to get : Tower of Control from 3 to 2, Raiders' Haven from 4 to 3
-Orks all levelled to 2 as well
-Elvish towns Egil-Oroth from 4 to 3 and Aesir-Vanir from 4 to 2
-Raiders' Shadowlands from 3 to 2
-Dwarves Strongholds should all drop 1troop to their actual count (Damkianna Stronghold - 2; Anshar Stroghold - 2; Ralaq-Marsan Gateway 3)
-North Logoth should drop from 4 to 3

-Also recommend raising Kaball's border, disabling South Logoth from having a second line of defence in Ralaq Marsan.
-North Logoth's one-way assault feature should be downgraded to a bombard feature
-1 Receptacle added to The Hillmen
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA-REVISING NEUTRAL STARTERS

Postby Zivel on Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:04 pm

I just played a quick one on one on this map and are unsure how I missed it. This is my new favourite map (Jamacia). Well constructed and an awesome idea... thanks so much for the time and effort you put into creating this map.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby MrBenn on Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:11 am

Kabanellas wrote:Revised neutral starters (less neutral troops for better game-play)

-Humans should all be dropped from 3 to 2
-Natural enemies of settlements should be easier to get : Tower of Control from 3 to 2, Raiders' Haven from 4 to 3
-Orks all levelled to 2 as well
-Elvish towns Egil-Oroth from 4 to 3 and Aesir-Vanir from 4 to 2
-Raiders' Shadowlands from 3 to 2
-Dwarves Strongholds should all drop 1troop to their actual count (Damkianna Stronghold - 2; Anshar Stroghold - 2; Ralaq-Marsan Gateway 3)
-North Logoth should drop from 4 to 3

-Also recommend raising Kaball's border, disabling South Logoth from having a second line of defence in Ralaq Marsan.
-North Logoth's one-way assault feature should be downgraded to a bombard feature
-1 Receptacle added to The Hillmen

If we can get an updated XML, then I'll forward it to lack
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA-REVISING NEUTRAL STARTERS

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:35 pm

thanks Ben!

Andrew is working on the XML at the moment.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby AndrewB on Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:55 am

Kabanellas wrote:Revised neutral starters (less neutral troops for better game-play)

-Humans should all be dropped from 3 to 2
-Natural enemies of settlements should be easier to get : Tower of Control from 3 to 2, Raiders' Haven from 4 to 3
-Orks all levelled to 2 as well
-Elvish towns Egil-Oroth from 4 to 3 and Aesir-Vanir from 4 to 2
-Raiders' Shadowlands from 3 to 2
-Dwarves Strongholds should all drop 1troop to their actual count (Damkianna Stronghold - 2; Anshar Stroghold - 2; Ralaq-Marsan Gateway 3)
-North Logoth should drop from 4 to 3

-Also recommend raising Kaball's border, disabling South Logoth from having a second line of defence in Ralaq Marsan.
-North Logoth's one-way assault feature should be downgraded to a bombard feature
-1 Receptacle added to The Hillmen


Following amendments were done:
  1. Keramion from neutral 3 to 2
  2. Akhenat from neutral 3 to 2
  3. Addar from neutral 3 to 2
  4. Edin-Na-Zu from neutral 3 to 2
  5. The Hillmen from neutral 3 to 2
  6. Tower of Control from neutral 3 to 2
  7. Raiders' Haven from neutral 4 to 3
  8. Yazun from neutral 3 to 2
  9. Bagadur from neutral 3 to 2
  10. Valley of Doom from neutral 3 to 2
  11. Egil-Oroth from neutral 4 to 3
  12. Aesir-Vanir from neutral 4 to 2
  13. Shadowlands from neutral 3 to 2
  14. Damkianna Dwarves' Stronghold from neutral 3 to 2
  15. Anshar Dwarves' Stronghold from neutral 3 to 2
  16. Ralaq-Marsan Dwarves' Stronghold from neutral 4 to 3
  17. North Logoth from neutral 4 to 3
  18. added a two-way border between South Logoth and Kaball
  19. North Logoth can bombard, not attack the following: Bhaku, Nutuk, Captargac
  20. Tower of Control can bombard The Hillmen

Here is a link to tested XML:

http://bolonniy.com/CC/Dawn_Of_Ages_v5.xml

Note: map legend needs updating to reflect the bombardments off North Logoff.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA - PROPOSING CHANGES

Postby MrBenn on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:17 pm

AndrewB wrote:Here is a link to tested XML:

http://bolonniy.com/CC/Dawn_Of_Ages_v5.xml

Note: map legend needs updating to reflect the bombardments off North Logoff.

Nice job ;-)

One we've got images updated I can send them to lack...
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA-REVISING NEUTRAL STARTERS

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:37 pm

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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA-REVISING NEUTRAL STARTERS

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon May 03, 2010 4:25 pm

Kab, I just want you to know how enjoyable I am finding this map. Excellent work!
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA-REVISING NEUTRAL STARTERS

Postby Kabanellas on Tue May 04, 2010 5:37 am

Thanks a lot Helix !

That makes me really happy, especially coming from you :)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA-REVISING NEUTRAL STARTERS

Postby joriki on Wed May 05, 2010 7:28 am

This map is good fun! Some comments on the explanations on the map:

It's natural to think that the pairs work like they do in Age of Realms and Treasures of Galapagos, but they don't; only distinct pairs count. I like it better this way, but since many people are used to the Age of Realms way (and the map is even called "Dawn of Ages") it would be good to explain this more explicitly.

Similarly for the dwarven bonuses: it's not entirely clear from the legend whether it helps to have both gateways (it doesn't).

The attack options of the dwarven gateways and strongholds are also not clear: in the legend it looks like all gateways can attack all strongholds and vice versa and the strongholds can't attack each other, whereas in fact which gateways and strongholds can attack each other is determined by the underground passage. Also, although one can guess from the double arrow and the name "gateway" that the gateways have two-way attacks with the surrounding region, this should be indicated in the legend -- the fact that the strongholds' one-way attack is shown in the legend and the gateways' two-way attack isn't makes it seem as if the legend implies that the gateways aren't connected to anything other than the strongholds.

Another slightly confusing aspect is that parts of the (very helpful) assault/bombardment diagram in the legend are explained in text in the map and others aren't -- after reading all the text I thought I knew the assault/bombardment options and was then surprised to find that there are others that are mentioned only in the diagram (e.g. Raiders' Haven can attack ports).

Thanks for a great new map!! =D>
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA-REVISING NEUTRAL STARTERS

Postby Kabanellas on Fri May 07, 2010 7:07 am

Hi Joriki! Thanks for your comments :)

joriki wrote:This map is good fun! Some comments on the explanations on the map:

It's natural to think that the pairs work like they do in Age of Realms and Treasures of Galapagos, but they don't; only distinct pairs count. I like it better this way, but since many people are used to the Age of Realms way (and the map is even called "Dawn of Ages") it would be good to explain this more explicitly.

Similarly for the dwarven bonuses: it's not entirely clear from the legend whether it helps to have both gateways (it doesn't).

You are the first one raising that doubt.... Well, I honestly think its pretty self-explanatory. But anyone having that doubt will surely be correct in the second game he/she plays

The attack options of the dwarven gateways and strongholds are also not clear: in the legend it looks like all gateways can attack all strongholds and vice versa and the strongholds can't attack each other, whereas in fact which gateways and strongholds can attack each other is determined by the underground passage. Also, although one can guess from the double arrow and the name "gateway" that the gateways have two-way attacks with the surrounding region, this should be indicated in the legend -- the fact that the strongholds' one-way attack is shown in the legend and the gateways' two-way attack isn't makes it seem as if the legend implies that the gateways aren't connected to anything other than the strongholds.

There's not so much we can explain in such a reduced space - this aspect of this game was widely and strongly discussed in the process of making this map. And it was intended to be the best way to explain their mechanics.

Another slightly confusing aspect is that parts of the (very helpful) assault/bombardment diagram in the legend are explained in text in the map and others aren't -- after reading all the text I thought I knew the assault/bombardment options and was then surprised to find that there are others that are mentioned only in the diagram (e.g. Raiders' Haven can attack ports).

It's showing in the diagram - Raiders' Haven can assault Ports :)

Thanks for a great new map!! =D>
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages[D,Gp,Gr,XML] BETA-REVISING NEUTRAL STAR

Postby Kabanellas on Thu May 13, 2010 12:24 pm

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Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2)
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