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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg5 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:49 am

But then I’d have to mix a horse, a shield and a sword with every human village icon, cause all villages can make a bonus pair with a horsemen’s t.g. OR with a warrior’s t.g. And that would be complicating the icons big time.

And I think we’re fine right now:
Relations between icons are very perceptible - Elven cities are close to bow and arrows; Ork's camps are close to axes and spears; and Human villages are close to shields and horses.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg5 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:51 am

Kabanellas wrote:But then I’d have to mix a horse, a shield and a sword with every human village icon, cause all villages can make a bonus pair with a horsemen’s t.g. OR with a warrior’s t.g. And that would be complicating the icons big time.

And I think we’re fine right now:
Relations between icons are very perceptible - Elven cities are close to bow and arrows; Ork's camps are close to axes and spears; and Human villages are close to shields and horses.


I guess so. Still looks like kind of a mess. Hmm...
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg5 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:32 am

posting V10 again so we won't lose focus on last changes:


V10 with glow
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V10
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:43 am

Either one works. The version without glow seems more parchment-y while the glowy version is more vivid.

And don't worry, PNGs work fine.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby el-presidente on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:23 am

IF I hold 2 horses, but only one little city thing, do I still only get +2?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:33 am

el-presidente wrote:IF I hold 2 horses, but only one little city thing, do I still only get +2?


yes, those bonus only work in pairs
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby el-presidente on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:44 am

OK, makes scence. There should be some larger bonuses, to make it more interesting, instead of just a lot of +1's.
Maybe something like, hold all human villages +3 or 4, and something similar for elven towns and Ork camps.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby AndrewB on Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:22 pm

Without a glow for me, even then, the yellow is too bright...
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby AndrewB on Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:25 pm

el-presidente wrote:OK, makes scence. There should be some larger bonuses, to make it more interesting, instead of just a lot of +1's.
Maybe something like, hold all human villages +3 or 4, and something similar for elven towns and Ork camps.


You will get +4 if you hold 2 human villages and 2 human training grounds. And +6 if you hold 3 human villages and 3 human training grounds.

So it is progressive, rather then be one huge chunk...
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 pm

From an artists point of view, I think that your "glow" version is the best. It really helps to separate the water from the land. If you would throw a very dark blue or black overlay on the land, it would also help in this respect. It would tone down the yellowness a bit. It would only need to be very low on the opacity level to achieve this. It is all about subtleness and variation that turn it from "flat" to "fat". :D
On a side note, Whereas most mapmakers do not appreciate my kibitzing on there projects, I am glad to see that you are not so insecure in this respect. Keep up with the open mind, and keep up the good work.
This map is progressing nicely, and it is my opinion that it is up to the level of the best at CC. ;)

Also something to think about, Maybe you could do without the "the" in some of the names. IE; "the" skull peninsula, "the" sea of this and that. less clutter if you get my meaning.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:54 pm

and again, thanks a lot Porkenbeans for all your input, you have been very, very helpful! : =D>

you may be right concerning the 'the' - but it always seems to me that in maps of this genre the 'the' was often used... I could take it from Skull Peninsula, but 'The Sea of Akhenat' seems to give a more epic edge to the map.
Well, probably, its just me. And of course, English is not my mother language so I may be getting wrong those details. :roll:
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:11 pm

A quick check to my copy of LotR reveals... no bodies of water labeled at all.

Okay, a quick Google Image Search reveals: http://www.geocities.com/karenlpy_lotr/MiddleEarth.jpg
Hardly anything is labeled with 'The' here -- The Shire and a few very minor features.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:53 pm

It is probably not that important, just thought that I would point out an option to de-clutter it if you wanted.
I think that you may want to consider working on the maps weakest features. In my opinion that would have to be the "symbols". Some are good, but some are not that evident what exactly they are supposed to be. You could even ask for fellow kibitzers like myself to post their own ideas for better ones. I am sure that you would get many entries, from those that would like to have a hand in making this map the best it can be.
Last edited by porkenbeans on Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:05 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:A quick check to my copy of LotR reveals... no bodies of water labeled at all.

Except the Sea of Nurnen, I presume. Although I agree that it would add to the feel if the names of the seas were to be removed.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:18 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:A quick check to my copy of LotR reveals... no bodies of water labeled at all.

Except the Sea of Nurnen, I presume. Although I agree that it would add to the feel if the names of the seas were to be removed.

Yes, quite a few internal river and seas including Nurnen and Rhûn, but no outside bodies of water are labeled.

As for this map, if you do keep the sea labels you may want to make them hug the coast less to convey the feel of labeling the whole sea. I presume the Sea of Telal refers to the water east of the Lost Island and the Sea of Akhenat is the water south of it?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:14 am

Porken, I’m completely open to change some symbols for others that you guys might suggest me.
And I’ll probably lose all those ‘the’s , except the one from Lost Island.

Evil, yes. The Sea of Akhenat borders the warrior’s regions and the Sea of Telal borders Horsemen’s regions. I’ll try to make the legend more fluid along the coast.
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The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:18 pm

After a long nice chat with Andrew last night, we came to the conclusion that changes had to be made to balance game-play.

For this effect Andrew changed the existing bonus calculator spreadsheet so we could add the neutral troop’s factor. And that was crucial when choosing neutral troops for each pair’s bonus. Thanks Andrew!!!! =D>

You can see the table results below to better understand the mechanics of all this.

V10
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Bonus calculator
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby AndrewB on Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:48 pm

I think that Hellnor and House Of Gods should be dropped to 2 neutrals and Auto-deploy should be raised to 2.

The only thing that Auto-deploy can do is to Auto-attack the 2 territories, which are neutral to start with....

Otherwise no one will ever go for it.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:47 am

ok, I'll drop the neutrals in HoG. But raising the bonus value would be giving it to much power IMO. ...And people will go for it when the guy holding the Towers becomes too annoying :)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:13 am

I'm not sure what the logic is behind Hellnor not connecting back to any other port but if you want the island to become more desirable, making it able to attack out may be a better way of going about it than lowering the neutral.

The problem with counting on the tower owner being annoying to make the HoG more attractive is that the towers aren't all that great themselves as it is. The tower of control is, ironically, impossible to control -- it can't be defended with less than four territories. It may be useful for attacking the eyes, but it's easier to disrupt by going at it directly than by sneaking out back to the HoG. The Tower of Doom gives no more auto-deploy than the elf village or skull peninsula, and it takes four turns to make up in auto-deploy for the neutral troops that are on it to begin with. And since the Tower of Control is so easy to lose, that one-troop bonus for holding both towers doesn't mean much.

The fact is that by just holding Raiders Haven, Downfalls, and Shadowlands a player gets almost the same benefit as one holding both towers, and the former are vastly easier to defend. The towers come out as a handy bonus for someone who's already holding down the Orc-and-maybe-Dwarf zone in the middle, but given that that's harder to hold than Europe, they don't justify going through any number of neutrals to reach a territory whose sole purpose is to bombard them.


(Also, do you get the Dwarven bonus for holding the mountains themselves or the territories that the gateways are in? It occurs to me that this bonus is slightly ambiguous.)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby MrBenn on Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:29 pm

The graphics on this map are very very good.

The biggest problem I have with it, is that it is overly-complex. By that, I don't mean that it is too complex, but that it is visually confusing - there are too many different symbols, with no obvious connection to help bring the two elements together --essentially I'm concerned that the legend is about half the size of the map ;-)

I think there are ways that the map can be made slightly simpler, but still have the same essence of gameplay, and still capture that spirit of Tolkien (which you have done incredibly well)... I'll pop back later to give some more thoughts ;-)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:04 pm

MrBenn wrote:The graphics on this map are very very good.

The biggest problem I have with it, is that it is overly-complex. By that, I don't mean that it is too complex, but that it is visually confusing - there are too many different symbols, with no obvious connection to help bring the two elements together --essentially I'm concerned that the legend is about half the size of the map ;-)

I think there are ways that the map can be made slightly simpler, but still have the same essence of gameplay, and still capture that spirit of Tolkien (which you have done incredibly well)... I'll pop back later to give some more thoughts ;-)
Yes Mr. B is correct here in pointing out the maps weakness. Its like I said before the symbols are just way to numerous, and some are a bit confusing as to what they are supposed to be. Mr. B makes a very good point about the legend being too large. I would say that at least a 50% reduction in its size and content, would go a long way to improve this map. Here is something to think about, If you were able to reduce the size of the legend, you would actually be able to shift the whole map down. This would allow for you to enlarge the Skull peninsula. This feature would become the maps signature icon. I think that it IS the most interesting feature, So why not showcase it ?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:20 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:I'm not sure what the logic is behind Hellnor not connecting back to any other port but if you want the island to become more desirable, making it able to attack out may be a better way of going about it than lowering the neutral.

The problem with counting on the tower owner being annoying to make the HoG more attractive is that the towers aren't all that great themselves as it is. The tower of control is, ironically, impossible to control -- it can't be defended with less than four territories. It may be useful for attacking the eyes, but it's easier to disrupt by going at it directly than by sneaking out back to the HoG. The Tower of Doom gives no more auto-deploy than the elf village or skull peninsula, and it takes four turns to make up in auto-deploy for the neutral troops that are on it to begin with. And since the Tower of Control is so easy to lose, that one-troop bonus for holding both towers doesn't mean much.

The fact is that by just holding Raiders Haven, Downfalls, and Shadowlands a player gets almost the same benefit as one holding both towers, and the former are vastly easier to defend. The towers come out as a handy bonus for someone who's already holding down the Orc-and-maybe-Dwarf zone in the middle, but given that that's harder to hold than Europe, they don't justify going through any number of neutrals to reach a territory whose sole purpose is to bombard them.


(Also, do you get the Dwarven bonus for holding the mountains themselves or the territories that the gateways are in? It occurs to me that this bonus is slightly ambiguous.)


Evil, I’m posting version 11, below, where I’ve inserted a threat to the Raider’s Haven. It will be less untouchable now, by far.
Also dropped the neutral troops from House of Gods from 4 to 2, so for that sneak attack you’ll have to kill 3 +2 neutrals, and gain while doing it a territory with a +1 auto-deploy.
As for the Dwarves’ bonus , they work by holding the Gate Icon wich will open for the territory they’re in.

Thanks Benn!
Well, I guess that it can be confusing at the first look, but once you get into it, things will start to clarify, I think :). But I'm always open to suggestions!
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The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:23 pm

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Version 11
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:36 pm

Hmm. So Sea Dragon is sort of a mini Lost Island. I guess that makes the Raider zone sort of a mini Tower zone, which might work out fairly nicely.

As for the Dwarven gates: From the circles' positioning it looks like each circle belongs to one of the mountain ranges, rather than just to the gate attached to it. I'm not quite sure what 'adjacent exterior regions' means either -- which territories can each gate attack?
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Location: Philadelphia, NJ
Medals: 20
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Map Contribution (4) General Contribution (3)

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