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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg6 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:14 am

Porken, I’m completely open to change some symbols for others that you guys might suggest me.
And I’ll probably lose all those ‘the’s , except the one from Lost Island.

Evil, yes. The Sea of Akhenat borders the warrior’s regions and the Sea of Telal borders Horsemen’s regions. I’ll try to make the legend more fluid along the coast.
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The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:18 pm

After a long nice chat with Andrew last night, we came to the conclusion that changes had to be made to balance game-play.

For this effect Andrew changed the existing bonus calculator spreadsheet so we could add the neutral troop’s factor. And that was crucial when choosing neutral troops for each pair’s bonus. Thanks Andrew!!!! =D>

You can see the table results below to better understand the mechanics of all this.

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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby AndrewB on Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:48 pm

I think that Hellnor and House Of Gods should be dropped to 2 neutrals and Auto-deploy should be raised to 2.

The only thing that Auto-deploy can do is to Auto-attack the 2 territories, which are neutral to start with....

Otherwise no one will ever go for it.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:47 am

ok, I'll drop the neutrals in HoG. But raising the bonus value would be giving it to much power IMO. ...And people will go for it when the guy holding the Towers becomes too annoying :)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:13 am

I'm not sure what the logic is behind Hellnor not connecting back to any other port but if you want the island to become more desirable, making it able to attack out may be a better way of going about it than lowering the neutral.

The problem with counting on the tower owner being annoying to make the HoG more attractive is that the towers aren't all that great themselves as it is. The tower of control is, ironically, impossible to control -- it can't be defended with less than four territories. It may be useful for attacking the eyes, but it's easier to disrupt by going at it directly than by sneaking out back to the HoG. The Tower of Doom gives no more auto-deploy than the elf village or skull peninsula, and it takes four turns to make up in auto-deploy for the neutral troops that are on it to begin with. And since the Tower of Control is so easy to lose, that one-troop bonus for holding both towers doesn't mean much.

The fact is that by just holding Raiders Haven, Downfalls, and Shadowlands a player gets almost the same benefit as one holding both towers, and the former are vastly easier to defend. The towers come out as a handy bonus for someone who's already holding down the Orc-and-maybe-Dwarf zone in the middle, but given that that's harder to hold than Europe, they don't justify going through any number of neutrals to reach a territory whose sole purpose is to bombard them.


(Also, do you get the Dwarven bonus for holding the mountains themselves or the territories that the gateways are in? It occurs to me that this bonus is slightly ambiguous.)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby MrBenn on Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:29 pm

The graphics on this map are very very good.

The biggest problem I have with it, is that it is overly-complex. By that, I don't mean that it is too complex, but that it is visually confusing - there are too many different symbols, with no obvious connection to help bring the two elements together --essentially I'm concerned that the legend is about half the size of the map ;-)

I think there are ways that the map can be made slightly simpler, but still have the same essence of gameplay, and still capture that spirit of Tolkien (which you have done incredibly well)... I'll pop back later to give some more thoughts ;-)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:04 pm

MrBenn wrote:The graphics on this map are very very good.

The biggest problem I have with it, is that it is overly-complex. By that, I don't mean that it is too complex, but that it is visually confusing - there are too many different symbols, with no obvious connection to help bring the two elements together --essentially I'm concerned that the legend is about half the size of the map ;-)

I think there are ways that the map can be made slightly simpler, but still have the same essence of gameplay, and still capture that spirit of Tolkien (which you have done incredibly well)... I'll pop back later to give some more thoughts ;-)
Yes Mr. B is correct here in pointing out the maps weakness. Its like I said before the symbols are just way to numerous, and some are a bit confusing as to what they are supposed to be. Mr. B makes a very good point about the legend being too large. I would say that at least a 50% reduction in its size and content, would go a long way to improve this map. Here is something to think about, If you were able to reduce the size of the legend, you would actually be able to shift the whole map down. This would allow for you to enlarge the Skull peninsula. This feature would become the maps signature icon. I think that it IS the most interesting feature, So why not showcase it ?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:20 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:I'm not sure what the logic is behind Hellnor not connecting back to any other port but if you want the island to become more desirable, making it able to attack out may be a better way of going about it than lowering the neutral.

The problem with counting on the tower owner being annoying to make the HoG more attractive is that the towers aren't all that great themselves as it is. The tower of control is, ironically, impossible to control -- it can't be defended with less than four territories. It may be useful for attacking the eyes, but it's easier to disrupt by going at it directly than by sneaking out back to the HoG. The Tower of Doom gives no more auto-deploy than the elf village or skull peninsula, and it takes four turns to make up in auto-deploy for the neutral troops that are on it to begin with. And since the Tower of Control is so easy to lose, that one-troop bonus for holding both towers doesn't mean much.

The fact is that by just holding Raiders Haven, Downfalls, and Shadowlands a player gets almost the same benefit as one holding both towers, and the former are vastly easier to defend. The towers come out as a handy bonus for someone who's already holding down the Orc-and-maybe-Dwarf zone in the middle, but given that that's harder to hold than Europe, they don't justify going through any number of neutrals to reach a territory whose sole purpose is to bombard them.


(Also, do you get the Dwarven bonus for holding the mountains themselves or the territories that the gateways are in? It occurs to me that this bonus is slightly ambiguous.)


Evil, I’m posting version 11, below, where I’ve inserted a threat to the Raider’s Haven. It will be less untouchable now, by far.
Also dropped the neutral troops from House of Gods from 4 to 2, so for that sneak attack you’ll have to kill 3 +2 neutrals, and gain while doing it a territory with a +1 auto-deploy.
As for the Dwarves’ bonus , they work by holding the Gate Icon wich will open for the territory they’re in.

Thanks Benn!
Well, I guess that it can be confusing at the first look, but once you get into it, things will start to clarify, I think :). But I'm always open to suggestions!
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The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:23 pm

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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:36 pm

Hmm. So Sea Dragon is sort of a mini Lost Island. I guess that makes the Raider zone sort of a mini Tower zone, which might work out fairly nicely.

As for the Dwarven gates: From the circles' positioning it looks like each circle belongs to one of the mountain ranges, rather than just to the gate attached to it. I'm not quite sure what 'adjacent exterior regions' means either -- which territories can each gate attack?
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby darkangelsguy205 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:56 pm

wahho 100th respond umm it looks fun
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:02 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:Hmm. So Sea Dragon is sort of a mini Lost Island. I guess that makes the Raider zone sort of a mini Tower zone, which might work out fairly nicely.


I think you can put it that way :)

As for the Dwarves' gates they work like this:

i.e. from Ralak-Marsan Gate you can one way assault Ralak-Marsan region, and you can assault (both ways) Grut Gate Entry.

in another example - From Khnum region you can assault (both ways) Khnum Gate Entry but from Damkianna region you can't assault Damkianna Gate because it's not an Entry. On the other hand Damkianna Gate can one way assault Damkianna region.

As for the number circle, I haven't found a better place to put it yet... maybe if I put it close to the 'gate icon' but in the field instead of placing it in the mountain, it could help....
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:28 pm

Kabanellas wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:Hmm. So Sea Dragon is sort of a mini Lost Island. I guess that makes the Raider zone sort of a mini Tower zone, which might work out fairly nicely.


I think you can put it that way :)

As for the Dwarves' gates they work like this:

i.e. from Ralak-Marsan Gate you can one way assault Ralak-Marsan region, and you can assault (both ways) Grut Gate Entry.

in another example - From Khnum region you can assault (both ways) Khnum Gate Entry but from Damkianna region you can't assault Damkianna Gate because it's not an Entry. On the other hand Damkianna Gate can one way assault Damkianna region.

As for the number circle, I haven't found a better place to put it yet... maybe if I put it close to the 'gate icon' but in the field instead of placing it in the mountain, it could help....


Ah, I see. The way I'd understood it is the dwarven gates assault territories adjacent to either the territories the gates are sitting in or the mountain ranges they're attached to, i.e. Khum's gate could either assault Yazun, Ongot, Bhaku, etc. or Nekhbet, Ostrakon, etc. So maybe I'm just thick, or maybe you could add outwards arrows to clarify, or I don't know.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby 40kguy on Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:51 pm

looks like a fun map to play on i would play on this map if it gets finished
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby AndrewB on Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:18 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:Hmm. So Sea Dragon is sort of a mini Lost Island. I guess that makes the Raider zone sort of a mini Tower zone, which might work out fairly nicely.

As for the Dwarven gates: From the circles' positioning it looks like each circle belongs to one of the mountain ranges, rather than just to the gate attached to it. I'm not quite sure what 'adjacent exterior regions' means either -- which territories can each gate attack?


My concern exactly. I had exactly same problem while calculating the bonus the Kabanellas.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby AndrewB on Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:45 pm

MrBenn wrote:The graphics on this map are very very good.

The biggest problem I have with it, is that it is overly-complex. By that, I don't mean that it is too complex, but that it is visually confusing - there are too many different symbols, with no obvious connection to help bring the two elements together --essentially I'm concerned that the legend is about half the size of the map ;-)

I think there are ways that the map can be made slightly simpler, but still have the same essence of gameplay, and still capture that spirit of Tolkien (which you have done incredibly well)... I'll pop back later to give some more thoughts ;-)


I think that one way to reduce the number of symbols is to use the same symbol for all the training grounds. That will get rid off 5 different symbols.

While we are on the same note here, I also find that Elven Town icon and Human Village and HoG are quite similar.

Here is another idea: use different colors for the different races icons, but make All settlement icons and All training grounds Icons the same. (Brown for Orks, Blue for Elves, Green/Yellow for Humans, Purple for Raiders, White for Hog and Red for Towers). And those colors should be quite subtle.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:05 pm

I disagree. I think that adding more color would make it look less old parchmenty and more like old parchment that you added lables to and would make it blend worse. I would like to see it stay stylisticly the same. Just my 2/5th of a nickel.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby The Neon Peon on Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:19 pm

I agree with reducing the amount of icons that are on the map, but I think that simply merging many of them into one is the wrong way of going about it.

Perhaps it would be easier to simply get rid of some icons altogether and add a few more of the ones left over in several spots.

That's my 2.1415926 cents on how to make the change easier.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 10 Pg7 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:23 am

AndrewB wrote:I think that one way to reduce the number of symbols is to use the same symbol for all the training grounds. That will get rid off 5 different symbols.

While we are on the same note here, I also find that Elven Town icon and Human Village and HoG are quite similar.

Here is another idea: use different colours for the different races icons, but make All settlement icons and All training grounds Icons the same. (Brown for Orks, Blue for Elves, Green/Yellow for Humans, Purple for Raiders, White for Hog and Red for Towers). And those colours should be quite subtle.


That would raise 2 enormous concerns in my opinion:

1- Using the same symbol for Training Grounds would make Orks' camps, human Villages and elven towns match 10 different symbols, and not the respective ones that they were meant to. I won't have an Orks' Camp matching a TG placed in the other side of the map, like the elven region. It would simple subvert the concept and the gameplay.

2- Using other colours in this map would make it lose the parchment feel that I worked so much to achieve.
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:33 am

To help clarify the Dwarves' Gateways mechanics I'll change the legend from:

"-can one way assault adjacent exterior regions"

to

"-can one way assault the region they're placed in"

or

"-can one way assault the region they're built in"
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby Rakio on Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:44 am

At this stage people have to be really dedicated to play this map.
It does some time to figure out everything. Took me at least 3 tries before I even bothered.

I do have to say that graphically it is very neat and unique. Great background parchment texture with clean symbols.
But as other have said, there are too many symbols.

Balance between the artistic graphic view and simple gameplay view will be hard to come if you still want to main the same look and feel of the map in a Tolkien/Fantasy manner.

As you said, colouring and merging of the symbols would ruin it totally.

Im thinking of maybe only have one unique symbol for each race?
Skip the pairings. You could still have the auto-deploy and other special bases. But the numerous forces would have to change. With them the bonus system somewhat too. All would be similar to the dwarfen one.

I hope I provided with something helpful and not straying away from your goal totally.
Havent read all the pages previously. Just taken interest in map making :)
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:58 am

Maybe coloring the symbols might not be so disastrous, if the colors were of a faded nature. It would still keep to the theme and look. Outside of that, you may need to loose some symbols. Either way I think that Mr. B was right in that The legend is too large. I am sure that it can be reduced if you put your mind to it. It would be nice to move the map down an inch. Then you could have the needed room to enlarge that kick-ass skull Peninsula graphic. :D
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:38 pm

Porken, the centre of the map should be the Tower of Control..... its the natural epicentre of all things there - where all the races confront each other
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:16 pm

Kabanellas wrote:Porken, the centre of the map should be the Tower of Control..... its the natural epicentre of all things there - where all the races confront each other
Thats cool, but if you moved everything down, it WOULD be more in the center, than it is now. below is a very crude example of the scale that I suggest. If you could fit the legend in the available space, it would be more about the map and not the over-powering legend. notice that the land has been stretched a bit, and Skull pen. and the island have been enlarged. please forgive the fuzziness, but this is just for scale purposes.
Click image to enlarge.
image

I found this map, thought that you might find it interesting.
Click image to enlarge.
image
Image
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Re: The Dawn Of Ages - Version 11 - Please comment

Postby Blitzaholic on Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:45 am

porkenbeans wrote:
Kabanellas wrote:Porken, the centre of the map should be the Tower of Control..... its the natural epicentre of all things there - where all the races confront each other
Thats cool, but if you moved everything down, it WOULD be more in the center, than it is now. below is a very crude example of the scale that I suggest. If you could fit the legend in the available space, it would be more about the map and not the over-powering legend. notice that the land has been stretched a bit, and Skull pen. and the island have been enlarged. please forgive the fuzziness, but this is just for scale purposes.
Click image to enlarge.
image

I found this map, thought that you might find it interesting.
Click image to enlarge.
image



whoa, thats kinda neat ;)
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