Malta [Quenched]

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Postby Qwert on Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:29 pm

you request help.
Here map with stone wall.

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Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:04 pm

Thanks Qwert! The rubble walls actually look better now.
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Postby steve monkey on Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:22 pm

i think the walls look a bit 'turd like'.

The map could turn into a good one though.
Marvaddin, it's true that Malta is a minor country, but it's also one of the most beautiful I've ever been to
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Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:34 pm

steve monkey wrote:i think the walls look a bit 'turd like'.

The map could turn into a good one though.
Marvaddin, it's true that Malta is a minor country, but it's also one of the most beautiful I've ever been to


Thanks Steve. Don't you think the walls that qwert gave me are better than the ones I used before?
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Postby Lupo on Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:07 am

about the wall, I think the best solution with be something between your previous version and the last one: I mean a medium size wall stones would fit better with your map.

Anyway, I didn't obtain neither a negative feedback about my previous proposal: does it mean that it was too bad or that you didn't notice it?
Moreover in this way the number of continents would reduce (at least virtually)

Lupo wrote:
Lupo wrote:I have a suggestion about Comino. why don't you make this territory belonging to both Eastern Gozo and Northen Malta, as it happens for the space stations in the space map?

Or, if you prefer, you could transform Comino into a territory that is not part of any continents, but if someone holds it plus at least another continet gets a +1 bonus...
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Postby Ruben Cassar on Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:16 am

Lupo wrote:about the wall, I think the best solution with be something between your previous version and the last one: I mean a medium size wall stones would fit better with your map.

Anyway, I didn't obtain neither a negative feedback about my previous proposal: does it mean that it was too bad or that you didn't notice it?
Moreover in this way the number of continents would reduce (at least virtually)

Lupo wrote:
Lupo wrote:I have a suggestion about Comino. why don't you make this territory belonging to both Eastern Gozo and Northen Malta, as it happens for the space stations in the space map?

Or, if you prefer, you could transform Comino into a territory that is not part of any continents, but if someone holds it plus at least another continet gets a +1 bonus...


Ok Lupo I have tried to do something in between vis-a-vis the walls. I will post the updated image at a later stage.

About the regions I keep receiveing feedback by people who want to increase them and others who want to decrease them. Originally I had a 32 region map and people told me to increase them Now I have a 42 region map and some people are telling me to reduce them. I decided that I am going to stick with 42 as I explained in a previous post, for gameplay reasons. About Comino I think it's fine as it is, however I have never played the space map cause to be honest I was never attracted by it. I will try to play it and see if I can gather something from it. Thanks for the suggestions Lupo and sorry for not replying before!
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Postby Ruben Cassar on Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:25 am

Here is the latest updated map:

1. I have smoothened the borders of the regions as suggested by Gavin
2. I have created new impassable borders

Andy I am waiting for you to give me a verdict on the map. Where are you!?

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Postby gavin_sidhu on Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:44 am

Well now you can start working on the impassables, your current ones are terrible. There is so many things you can do to improve as your continents are so weird, all of them except Northern Gozo have too many border countries. I was trying to think of borders, but you can do too many things so I'll let you figure it out on your own.

Edit: Border of Medina a bit thick and i didn't know today was the 14th.
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Postby Ruben Cassar on Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:52 am

gavin_sidhu wrote:Well now you can start working on the impassables, your current ones are terrible. There is so many things you can do to improve as your continents are so weird, all of them except Northern Gozo have too many border countries. I was trying to think of borders, but you can do too many things so I'll let you figure it out on your own.

Edit: Border of Medina a bit thick and i didn't know today was the 14th.


Tzk tzk. Are you being a bit sarcastic now Gavin! :p Maybe I live in the past. I guess it's 17th where you live or end of 16th!

About the impassables I am still pondering about them. Send me a graphic for evaluation if you feel like it.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:18 pm

Lets see what we've got so far!

Visual Appeal:
    Hm, well where to begin here!

  • I'll start with the Bonus Legend...the black background is horrendous. It stands out, and the black box distracts from the general 'lightness' of the map. Definitely consider removing it, and going with the background of the legend, or atleast some sort of gray, or paper color. The colors and names in the legend aren't so well off either. I'd consider bolding the names, and perhaps making them larger...you might also have to fiddle with colors.
  • The title and compass are...alright. Regarding the compass, I might the background of it a little less bright white, and perhaps make the Cardinal directions larger in font size. The title works, but perhaps if you secluded it from the rest of the map, by putting a border or such around it, it might make it a little more attractive. And as some people know, I hate 'main focus names'... meaning that I personally like the way painter's sign their works...unobtrusively and inconspicuously placed. I know you as the cartographer are proud of creating the map, but I'm sure all the great artists were proud of their works also, and I see each map as a great work of art.
  • As for the various icons and imagery you have on the map, I actually don't mind the current impassable border icons you have now...though they sort of look like stacks of tires used as walls. If you could edit it to make it look SLIGHTLY more rocky, and less tire-like...that would be wonderful. Regarding the castles and other icons...you've got to consider the perspective you are using. It's best to have a uniform visual point. Take a look at the Capital, frontal view. And now the City and Land End, side perspective view. And regarding the helipad...top down side view.
  • Textures, textures, textures! I like them, but not so many different ones. The 'Sandy Dot-Dot' textures(Central Malta, Gozo & Comino, Southern Malta) are my LEAST favorite of all. They don't seem to work very well. The 'Sea Flood' textures (Northern Gozo, Northern Malta, Western Malta, Grand Harbour) remind me too much of the current ocean. Kind of reminds me of a napkin or paper towel that is grease soiled after cooking bacon or some other greasy food. The 'Termite' textures (Southern Gozo, Eastern Malta) don't seem very realistic. I suggest looking into new textures, perhaps more uniform ones that are more realistic, or at least flow better with the map.
  • I'm not a big fan of the color choices, at least the tones of them. One thing you might want to consider...not grouping main colors near each other... I.E. Red, blue, green. Definitely look into different shades and tones, and perhaps placement of the colors.
  • The ocean..agh! What is it? It looks like a blurred image of an aerial photograph of the ocean. I'd definitely consider using a different image, or different texture idea. The color isn't too bad, but try t make it flow well with the other land areas...so it can actually feel like an ocean, and not a table cloth upon which the continents are sitting.
  • The country lines are alright. Try to keep the uniform in thickness...and how you use them. It looks like Southern Gozo has a border between land and sea, but other areas do not. I suggest making more of those borders, so it doesn't look like the sea is eating the land slowly. Also, what the heck is going on with the Grand Harbour area near the sea? It looks like it's getting burned...as does the tip St. Paul's bay.
  • Font of the map, simple and plain. It is alright. If at all possible, try to keep uniform color choices. Specifically regarding 'Land's End'...they seem to hidden almost...and hard to notice. I'd make them bigger and bolder, though it may be hard the right hand corner. Also, I'd make 'Malta' and 'Gozo' perhaps a little larger.
  • Names...I've got a big dislike for 'Directional Area' names. I'm glad you didn't use such things for countries, but you did for your continents! Are there any names you can use instead of 'Eastern, Northern, Southern, Western... etc? I like 'Grand Harbour'.
  • Attack routes...Eh alright. Nothing really spectacular about them. Though I really do dislike the long routes...Perhaps if you spaced out the line segments, it would make it easier on the eye, and still easy enough to follow.
Gameplay:
  • I enjoy your enthusiasim to put all the bells and whistles into this map, but perhaps having all those extra bonuses, along with the heli-pad, is a bit too much. I like the Land's End idea, because of the placement. I could say the same about the Cities, but I am not too fond of that idea, and I'd get rid of it. I do like the Capital idea, perhaps could keep that one. Regarding the helipad, essentially you've already got sea ports, and I know you are trying to make for easy movement around the map, making so it isn't possible to easily take and defend all of Gozo area...but maybe consider using only a port idea, or a helipad idea.
Specifics:
    (Not including Capital, Cities, or Land's End, or Helipads)

  • Grand Harbour -- 5 Countries, 4 Borders, Bonus of 4.
  • Southern Malta -- 5 Countries, 3 Borders, Bonus of 3.
  • Western Malta -- 6 Countries, 4 Borders, Bonus 5.
  • Central Malta -- 6 Countries, 5 Borders, Bonus of 5.
  • Eastern Malta -- 4 Countries, 4 Borders, Bonus of 3.
  • Northern Malta -- 3 Countries, 3 Borders, Bonus of 2.
  • Eastern G. & C. -- 4 Countries, 4 Borders, Bonus of 3.
  • Southern Gozo -- 3 Countries, 3 Borders, Bonus of 2.
  • Northern Gozo -- 6 Countries, 3 Borders, Bonus of 4.
      ** Now, the idea behind the map, of a quite a few little continents and no real large continents, is one of the newer ideas that has popped up on CC. The World 2.0 map used it, with sub continents and continents. It worked pretty well with that map, due to the fact it had a larger country number to work with. We'll see how it works on a 'small' map in comparisson to it. Border amounts are a big issue. It almost makes trying to grab a continent useless...except for maybe Northern Gozo, as it is a decent area to start and expand. There are a few plans of action out there. You can of course make continents with a few less borders (but still keep in a number that are similar to the current status), or play with the bonus values, to make continents an attractive option to capture. Incentive is an idea to look into...things need to be attractive to capture, or why attempt at all?

Hm, I'll come back and comment more later on the specifics of it all.


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Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:53 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Lets see what we've got so far!

Visual Appeal:
    Hm, well where to begin here!

  • I'll start with the Bonus Legend...the black background is horrendous. It stands out, and the black box distracts from the general 'lightness' of the map. Definitely consider removing it, and going with the background of the legend, or atleast some sort of gray, or paper color. The colors and names in the legend aren't so well off either. I'd consider bolding the names, and perhaps making them larger...you might also have to fiddle with colors.


Ok I can fix that. I put a black background because not all the text was legibile on a grey or light background.

AndyDufresne wrote:
  • The title and compass are...alright. Regarding the compass, I might the background of it a little less bright white, and perhaps make the Cardinal directions larger in font size. The title works, but perhaps if you secluded it from the rest of the map, by putting a border or such around it, it might make it a little more attractive. And as some people know, I hate 'main focus names'... meaning that I personally like the way painter's sign their works...unobtrusively and inconspicuously placed. I know you as the cartographer are proud of creating the map, but I'm sure all the great artists were proud of their works also, and I see each map as a great work of art.


  • I will make some cosmetic changes in this section as well.

    AndyDufresne wrote:
  • As for the various icons and imagery you have on the map, I actually don't mind the current impassable border icons you have now...though they sort of look like stacks of tires used as walls. If you could edit it to make it look SLIGHTLY more rocky, and less tire-like...that would be wonderful. Regarding the castles and other icons...you've got to consider the perspective you are using. It's best to have a uniform visual point. Take a look at the Capital, frontal view. And now the City and Land End, side perspective view. And regarding the helipad...top down side view.


  • Hmm...I am not sure that I understand what you are saying here. I thought that the last time you reviewed the map you said that the icons were okay. I might try changing them, I'll see what I can do.

    AndyDufresne wrote:
  • Textures, textures, textures! I like them, but not so many different ones. The 'Sandy Dot-Dot' textures(Central Malta, Gozo & Comino, Southern Malta) are my LEAST favorite of all. They don't seem to work very well. The 'Sea Flood' textures (Northern Gozo, Northern Malta, Western Malta, Grand Harbour) remind me too much of the current ocean. Kind of reminds me of a napkin or paper towel that is grease soiled after cooking bacon or some other greasy food. The 'Termite' textures (Southern Gozo, Eastern Malta) don't seem very realistic. I suggest looking into new textures, perhaps more uniform ones that are more realistic, or at least flow better with the map.


  • The problem is that I have merged the textures in a single layer now. Changing them would mean starting the map from scratch. I don't think I can totally change them but maybe refine them a bit.

    AndyDufresne wrote:
  • I'm not a big fan of the color choices, at least the tones of them. One thing you might want to consider...not grouping main colors near each other... I.E. Red, blue, green. Definitely look into different shades and tones, and perhaps placement of the colors.
  • The ocean..agh! What is it? It looks like a blurred image of an aerial photograph of the ocean. I'd definitely consider using a different image, or different texture idea. The color isn't too bad, but try t make it flow well with the other land areas...so it can actually feel like an ocean, and not a table cloth upon which the continents are sitting.


  • As I mentioned earlier the colours are now a single merged layer. As for the background, once again it is a merged layer and I would have to start from scratch. I don't know what is so wrong with it though...some maps like the British Isles map have got just a plain blue background and they work fine!

    AndyDufresne wrote:
  • The country lines are alright. Try to keep the uniform in thickness...and how you use them. It looks like Southern Gozo has a border between land and sea, but other areas do not. I suggest making more of those borders, so it doesn't look like the sea is eating the land slowly. Also, what the heck is going on with the Grand Harbour area near the sea? It looks like it's getting burned...as does the tip St. Paul's bay.
  • Font of the map, simple and plain. It is alright. If at all possible, try to keep uniform color choices. Specifically regarding 'Land's End'...they seem to hidden almost...and hard to notice. I'd make them bigger and bolder, though it may be hard the right hand corner. Also, I'd make 'Malta' and 'Gozo' perhaps a little larger.
  • Names...I've got a big dislike for 'Directional Area' names. I'm glad you didn't use such things for countries, but you did for your continents! Are there any names you can use instead of 'Eastern, Northern, Southern, Western... etc? I like 'Grand Harbour'.


  • I will do my best to refine the borders further. The fonts are something that I can easily fix. I can also change the region names. I will try to find something more creative.


    AndyDufresne wrote:
  • Attack routes...Eh alright. Nothing really spectacular about them. Though I really do dislike the long routes...Perhaps if you spaced out the line segments, it would make it easier on the eye, and still easy enough to follow.
  • Gameplay:
    • I enjoy your enthusiasim to put all the bells and whistles into this map, but perhaps having all those extra bonuses, along with the heli-pad, is a bit too much. I like the Land's End idea, because of the placement. I could say the same about the Cities, but I am not too fond of that idea, and I'd get rid of it. I do like the Capital idea, perhaps could keep that one. Regarding the helipad, essentially you've already got sea ports, and I know you are trying to make for easy movement around the map, making so it isn't possible to easily take and defend all of Gozo area...but maybe consider using only a port idea, or a helipad idea.


    I could remove the main cities bonus. Would that make the map better? However the helipad was added because other members kept complaining and said they wanted more connectivity between Malta and Gozo. The same goes for the sea routes. Originally I had less. I tried to please these members by adding more sea routes and a helipad so I don't know, maybe they should stay. Let me know what I should do about this issue.

    AndyDufresne wrote:Specifics:
      (Not including Capital, Cities, or Land's End, or Helipads)

    • Grand Harbour -- 5 Countries, 4 Borders, Bonus of 4.
    • Southern Malta -- 5 Countries, 3 Borders, Bonus of 3.
    • Western Malta -- 6 Countries, 4 Borders, Bonus 5.
    • Central Malta -- 6 Countries, 5 Borders, Bonus of 5.
    • Eastern Malta -- 4 Countries, 4 Borders, Bonus of 3.
    • Northern Malta -- 3 Countries, 3 Borders, Bonus of 2.
    • Eastern G. & C. -- 4 Countries, 4 Borders, Bonus of 3.
    • Southern Gozo -- 3 Countries, 3 Borders, Bonus of 2.
    • Northern Gozo -- 6 Countries, 3 Borders, Bonus of 4.
        ** Now, the idea behind the map, of a quite a few little continents and no real large continents, is one of the newer ideas that has popped up on CC. The World 2.0 map used it, with sub continents and continents. It worked pretty well with that map, due to the fact it had a larger country number to work with. We'll see how it works on a 'small' map in comparisson to it. Border amounts are a big issue. It almost makes trying to grab a continent useless...except for maybe Northern Gozo, as it is a decent area to start and expand. There are a few plans of action out there. You can of course make continents with a few less borders (but still keep in a number that are similar to the current status), or play with the bonus values, to make continents an attractive option to capture. Incentive is an idea to look into...things need to be attractive to capture, or why attempt at all?
    Hm, I'll come back and comment more later on the specifics of it all.


    --Andy


    I know that there are a lot of borders in this map when compared to the others. I could add more impassable objects but the concept was to make players conscious of their defence as well as their attack. The idea was also to make the map more unpredictable and hard fought. If you are not careful about your defences you might easily lose a game that you were winning. Let me know what you think about this concept Andy!

    Andy I will be waiting for further feedback from your side before doing any further development. Thanks for your time!
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    Postby AndyDufresne on Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:11 pm

    It's unfortunate if you are unable to change colors and textures much, or at least unable to do experimentation. Might pro-long the map making process...


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    Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:33 pm

    AndyDufresne wrote:It's unfortunate if you are unable to change colors and textures much, or at least unable to do experimentation. Might pro-long the map making process...


    --Andy


    Errr...what do you mean exactly Andy? Should I proceed with the developments I mentioned in my previous post or not. There are many points that I mentioned that I can work on, others that I can't.
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    Postby KEYOGI on Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:44 am

    It's just me, but I feel this map has taken a turn for the worse visually. I find the original design much better, with the exception of the impassable borders. In an effort to please everybody it seems the map has lost its consistency. Everything about the original went well with eveything else. Now, it seems a bit hit-and-miss.

    My suggestion would be to go back to what you had but just tone down the brightness a little. You could probably acheive that with a very light grey transparent layer, I'm not sure. Maybe just play with brightness and contrast levels after it's been compressed to jpeg.

    I do like the new territories though, looks much more playable. 8)
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    Postby hulmey on Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:36 am

    your first and second map of malta are visually better than alot of maps on CC. Take advice but its your map mate. But i would keep the amount of countries you have on second map.
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    Postby Ruben Cassar on Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:08 pm

    Ok guys, here's the latest development of this map in time for Christmas. This is a totally new design. I amended most of the issues that were mentioned in previous posts:

    1. New Bonus Legend
    2. New compass
    3. Different region names
    4. New icons
    5. New textures/colour schemes
    6. New fonts
    7. Removed main cities bonus to decrease number of bonuses
    8. Different region bonuses
    9. Many other cosmetic changes

    Andy as usual I await your feedback...

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    Postby Sargentgeneral on Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:24 pm

    I love the new legend set up! It looks fantastic.
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    Postby s.xkitten on Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:55 pm

    love the legend now, very professional looking
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    Postby Bad Speler on Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:53 pm

    the legend is great!!! The connecting lines however, look odd. I think perhaps if the connecting lines physically touched the land it would look a bit better. Also, the compass, in my opinion, is a bit bright, the background to the compass also seems out of place.
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    Postby KEYOGI on Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:20 pm

    Looks great, a nice improvement to an already good map.

    I'm not sure about the white circle behind the compass and could you maybe shorten the continent names? For example, remove the ta' malta or ta' ghawdex from the end of the names. The names don't bother me, might just look nicer if they were shortened.
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    Postby Ruben Cassar on Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:43 am

    Thanks to all the people who liked the new legend.

    Bad Speler....I agree with you on the sea routes. I have made them connect with the land as you suggested in the next version.

    Keyogi...I have modified the compass a bit in the next version. Hope it's slightly better. I will consider what you said about shortening the names, but they wouldn't make much sense in Maltese if I shortened them, however I guess not many people will care about that apart from myself!

    Thanks to all for your positive feedback.
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    Postby KEYOGI on Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:17 am

    Ruben Cassar wrote:I will consider what you said about shortening the names, but they wouldn't make much sense in Maltese if I shortened them, however I guess not many people will care about that apart from myself!


    Like I said, the names don't bother me being long, I thought it might just give you more space. Just out of interest, what do the names translate to if anything?
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    Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:32 am

    KEYOGI wrote:
    Ruben Cassar wrote:I will consider what you said about shortening the names, but they wouldn't make much sense in Maltese if I shortened them, however I guess not many people will care about that apart from myself!


    Like I said, the names don't bother me being long, I thought it might just give you more space. Just out of interest, what do the names translate to if anything?


    The words are written in Maltese. Port il-Kbir means Grand Harbour for example. Il-Ponta ta' Ghawdex u Kemmuna means The Tip of Gozo and Comino. Parti Centrali means Central Part and so on...
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    Postby Bad Speler on Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:42 am

    one more thing i notice, is that i dont like how, in the bonus legend, the 4 of tramuntana ta' ghawdex touches the edge of the legend
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    Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:58 am

    Bad Speler wrote:one more thing i notice, is that i dont like how, in the bonus legend, the 4 of tramuntana ta' ghawdex touches the edge of the legend


    You know what...it's irritating me as well! Hehe. I will fix it. Thanks.
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