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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V?)! -- POLL!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:32 pm

sully800 wrote:I still think we should be allowed to make 2 player only maps, but I guess that is far beyond the scope of this discussion.


Well, as long as we're waiting for the poll, I'd absolutely welcome another controversial discussion on map design limits. Last time it was territory count, now it's player count -- maybe for my next map I'll challenge the established trope that players should be able to attack.
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:43 pm

I like 8 player games best, but I also agree that there is no reason that you shouldn't be able to haveonly 2 player games if you really want, and I think they would be able to be better for 1v1 than maps that have to be usable for eight players. I am not really sure the reasoning behind having that rule, but they have always seemed pretty set on keeping it.
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:48 pm

Well, the technical bottom limit would have to be 3 since 2-player games divide into 3 parts anyway.
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:02 am

I like option 1, but I think the dish houses are at some disadvantage with a bombard only while the bases have a one way attack. Might have to figure out how to balance that a little more... maybe have the dishes act like antennas and start 1 killer neutral? Or, just make the dish houses radio stations.

Otherwise... if you for some reason get away with having a 6 player map, I would endorse this as the best possible option.

I don't see why every game ought to be available to 8 players... CC will have more flexibility in having games that are suitable for limited players.
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby Teflon Kris on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:21 pm

Analysing the 6-player situation, we can state that:

This map has support through its poll for being 6-player.

The advantages of the 6-player option are:
    The map can stick with its' original design as a small map.

    When adding / changing features to accommodate 8-players the map would not be able to follow its original gameplay structure and play would be congested in the central areas in a 7/8-player game.

There are already a number of maps which can accommodate max. 6-players, adding one more would make little difference to the overall choice of maps available for 7/8-player games. :D

I am personally inclined to support the 6-player option, especially as this is a relatively small map with single starting positions. =D> The preference for maps being designed to 8-players is entirely right for larger maps, or maps with more classic-style gameplay. However, if the requirement is universally implemented it means that map-makers are restricted in their ability to construct smaller maps with starting positions - a style of map which would be both interesting and popular. :D

I'll double-check for a second opinion on this as I wouldn't wish for loads of graft to go into the 6-player version only for this issue to come back at a later stage. That would be a nightmare. :(
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:24 pm

Come to think of it, another way to support 8 players without getting rid of significant gameplay elements might look like

Click image to enlarge.
image


Here Roma and Lapid are receiver dishes that work just like in the 6-player option, while Klein and Carlin are the pirates. I'm not sure how they'd behave but I'm not too worried about balancing them against the tower stations because they're only starting positions in 7-8 player matches. However, they would necessarily have 3 neutral to begin with so their abilities would have to be appropriate. Probably they auto-deploy +1 and remotely attack something-or-other-I'm-not-sure. The biggest drawback, I think, is that since the pirates are right next to the dishes, and each station player starts their first turn with 8 troops on their station, it might be too easy to eliminate a pirates right off the bat -- especially annoying in Assassin games. That could be fixed by raising the dish house neutral value to 4, maybe?

Either way I do tend to think the 6-player option as I have it up now might be a bit too simplistic for my taste, anyway. There's room for another gameplay feature, or possibly two small ones.
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:10 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:
oaktown wrote:Game type flexibility. The map should support various game types and not be designed with specific/limited game settings in mind (standard, assassin, fog of war, 2-8 players, etc.).


A 6-player-limit map supports 70% of possible game settings and there are enough extant maps with this limit that it wouldn't be unusual if a new one came out..


Map with less than 8 players aren't forbidden, but discouraged.

lackattack wrote:Since the precedent has been set for hard-coding players per map, I wouldn't say it is forbidden. But it should be discouraged and only approved if the map is really something special.


You've already found some possible variants that support 8 players and my advice is to develop one of these options.
Generally, maps limited to less than 8 players are welcome only in execeptional cases and if the gameplay is affected by the presence of two additional players.
However,it is good practice to develope each map without a specific limit for type or number of players (specially with your good, and working, variants ;) )

-------------------------------
Said that,This one is a nice map! =D>
We need some funny (and well-reasoned) ideas like this here around.
With all these versions i'd like to postpone a bit any suggestions, but my personal choice was for 8 players combo.

Have a nice day :)

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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:18 pm

Loud and clear. Looks like we have plenty of 8-player possibilities to go around which I would not mind implementing at all. Maybe one day I'll try for a map exceptional enough for the limit, but not today.
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:25 pm

It looks like the leaders in the poll are allowing only 6 players (which I think isn't vital enough for this map to justify) or the 8-player combo option. Thanks to everyone who's voted so far. My question for you now: What about these versions made them preferable for you?
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (POLL; V???)!

Postby captainwalrus on Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:38 am

I really like the concept of the pirate radio stations, and they seem balanced, since they have more places that they can easily attack things and are in the middle of everything, kind of like china in classic.
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:06 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image


Here Roma and Lapid are receiver dishes that work just like in the 6-player option, while Klein and Carlin are the pirates. I'm not sure how they'd behave but I'm not too worried about balancing them against the tower stations because they're only starting positions in 7-8 player matches. However, they would necessarily have 3 neutral to begin with so their abilities would have to be appropriate. Probably they auto-deploy +1 and remotely attack something-or-other-I'm-not-sure. The biggest drawback, I think, is that since the pirates are right next to the dishes, and each station player starts their first turn with 8 troops on their station, it might be too easy to eliminate a pirates right off the bat -- especially annoying in Assassin games. That could be fixed by raising the dish house neutral value to 4, maybe?

Either way I do tend to think the 6-player option as I have it up now might be a bit too simplistic for my taste, anyway. There's room for another gameplay feature, or possibly two small ones.


I was thinking back to my vote. :-k
The quoted version could be the best way to have a map that suits perfectly games with 6 players, but still playble with 7/8 players.
Agree with the 4 neutral troops to prevent a quick elimination.
What gameplay features do you have in mind? :)

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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:13 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:What gameplay features do you have in mind? :)


I'm not quite sure. There's room in the instruction space but just because you can fit it in doesn't mean it's a good idea. Is the map too plain as it is?
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Re: Woodboro (POLL, Spirited Discussion of Foundry Conventions)!

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:55 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:I'm not quite sure. There's room in the instruction space but just because you can fit it in doesn't mean it's a good idea.

how right you are! =D>

Evil DIMwit wrote:Is the map too plain as it is?

No i don't think that the map is too plain....It's small, simple and clear.
But if you are searching for another gameplay feature, maybe make homes more interesting and active in the game, or try to work on the neutral values to get a small but not "fast ending" map. (just random thoughts ;) ).

Follow your instinct, it's your map....for you it's good enough? :)

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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (POLL; V???)!

Postby Mr_Adams on Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:57 pm

6 player, I'd play. 8 player, I'd play with 6 players ;). 8 man version 2 was confusing. Combo sux
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4)! -- Enough with the poll already

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:13 am

Well, I guess this version is as good as any. I changed the instructions around to make 'em cuter (also there's a typo I'll fix later).

Click image to enlarge.
image

http://www.freewebs.com/dimagic/ConquerClub/Woodboro_R2.png

The 6-player option has the majority and I think this is the closest thing to that which still allows for those two extra players. It won't look pretty with 8 players but of course (a) it's not supposed to and (b) that won't stop people.

Also, the pirate stations now make for a nice couple of one-way bridges across the lake which might actually take some pressure off the two stations in the middle.

Also, the neutral values for the dish houses are at 2 because that's the same number of neutrals a station would run up against if it tried to reach a pirate via the ground.

Also, could someone in charge wrap up the poll? It's served its purpose.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4)! -- Enough with the poll already

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:25 am

Poll Result

Which gameplay version would you prefer?

6 players is enough for me.....8.....47%

8-player option 1, matey!.....2.....12%

8-player option 2, homeslice!.....2.....12%

8-player combo, reminds me of pizza.....4.....24%

Another scheme; I'll tell you about it in a post......0.....No votes

You should have multiple versions; I'll tell you which in a post......1.....6%

Total votes : 17

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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4)!

Postby Teflon Kris on Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:03 pm

Cool - good work Evil - the map is looking pretty damn good in my view =D>

I agree with nobodies comment earlier - extra features are up to you but certainly not a necessity. :D

The big gameplay consideration is whether player 1 gets a big advantage - to be at that stage of thinking is pretty advanced considering you are still in the drafting room. I cant see any major adjustments needed, possibly just neutral values tinkering as nobodies said.

Thinking it through quickly (2-6 player scenario) - player 1 starts with 8 - he has to defeat 9 altogether (leaving doods behind along the way) to take another station. Unlikely enough to not be a problem. By the second round the chances are not really any better if the others have started cautiously and have doods on their bases. I can't see a problem - battles over the sponsors and pirates are most likely after a couple of rounds where everyone has had some auto-deploys to be able to compete, regardless of starting order. Single starting positions eliminate drop-worries and the varying value of neutrals, and the antenna killer neutral, means getting a card is equally really easy in card games. :D Anyone disagree and see any problems?
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:17 pm

Yarr, this map 's it is be lookin' 's hectic as a mess deck short o' rum. I'm thinkin' o' bringin' every neutral tarrritory's count up by one. 'Tbe a slightly slower game but battles o' eight would no longer leave unlucky playarrrs walkin' th' plank. I smell in this map good p'tential fer 4-man crews, an' I be loath t'waste it.

What do ye think, mateys? Be five neutral men too many t'make a sponsarrr worth takin'?
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Re: Good Marrrning Woodboro (V4)! - Happy Talk Like A Pirate Day

Postby iceco on Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:12 am

't might be too much rum fer one sailor, matey. D'ye think it'a be possible to only do that fer 8 player games and leave et out fer the other gameys.
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Re: Good Marrrning Woodboro (V4)! - Happy Talk Like A Pirate Day

Postby Teflon Kris on Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:01 am

Sadly cant see the xml allowing different neutral values for different player #s.

Increasing the sponsors value isn't a bad idea. :D Although, I would advocate keeping the antennas as 1s - medium-sized neutrals are where bad luck can deplete players.

Bear in mind, that however hard you try to make the game work for 8-players, quads on non-huge maps are all about eliminating a target quickly. On this kind of map - the team going first will possibly load up the 4th player in their team who will then attack the fourth opponent before he has had his turn - pushed along and off tha plank beefore ee eeven aad charnse too wake aap and take a shotta tha ole rum. To legislate against this might seriously undermine your gameplay for other games. If doods want to play quads they should be looking at the big maps really.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:33 am

DJ Teflon wrote:Increasing the sponsors value isn't a bad idea.

I dunno, I feel like by the time you get to conquering sponsors the games will move fast enough that having to wait three turns to break even on your troop investment (assuming a 1:1 troop loss in the assault) wouldn't be worth it -- but two might. I'm keeping it 4 for now unless someone wants to prove me wrong with some math.

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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:40 pm

So, uh, what's next? Any other potential improvements? Community support? Just kinda waiting around? I dunno if I can think of any major changes to make.

Edit: Woo.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:52 pm

Is there anyway to make the antennas on the Pirate Stations stand out a little more. I think once you have color coded numbers in there then it will be obvious where the starting positions are, but as it stands now, there's quite a bit of looking involved in finding the Pirate Stations (for example, the first antenna on Carlin is a bit blurred with the grass on Dean's house). Perhaps you could make them white antennas or something?

Is it really necessary that the pirate stations can one way attack the dish houses? I mean, they're right next to them...

To be honest, I think everything looks good enough on this to move on to the main foundry. The graphics are great save for a few touch ups and the gameplay seems pretty solid at this point.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:49 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Is there anyway to make the antennas on the Pirate Stations stand out a little more. I think once you have color coded numbers in there then it will be obvious where the starting positions are, but as it stands now, there's quite a bit of looking involved in finding the Pirate Stations (for example, the first antenna on Carlin is a bit blurred with the grass on Dean's house). Perhaps you could make them white antennas or something?


Y'know, it so happens I don't fully like representing the pirates with extra antennas but sadly I haven't found any way better to make them distinct in their outline from all of the regular houses (I tried the antennas in white and believe me it didn't look better). However it should be the color that really distinguishes pirates from all of the rest so unless someone thinks there's a problem it doesn't seem too bad that all the antennas on Carlin and Klein aren't as visible as they could be.

Industrial Helix wrote:Is it really necessary that the pirate stations can one way attack the dish houses? I mean, they're right next to them...

You see, each pirate station can also connect to the dish house away from it, forming a bridge that goes over the lake in the middle thus taking some pressure off Grass Land and Slaydio (though to be fair this extension's a lot more significant going from Carlin to Roma than going from Klein to Lapid and perhaps I should just make the dishes connect to each other instead).
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:29 pm

I don't see big problems.
This one is a nice and funny map.
A good idea, a good development....

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Onward and Upward!

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Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
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