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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:37 am

MrBenn wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:So the regular stations should be distributed before the pirates, no?

No - the starting positions are randomly assigned. Any surplus are then put into the standard pot to be dished out, unless they are coded as underlying neutral starts.


So much I understand; that implies that the program's process is:
A) Randomly assign as many starting positions as possible to the players such that every player gets an equal amount
B) Put the surplus of these into the standard pot
C) Divide the standard pot equally among the number of players (or the number of players plus 1 for 2-player games)
D) Make the remainder neutral

Is this inaccurate?
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:49 pm

As far as sponsors go, what do people think of this for more commercial icons:
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Or alternatively a more industrial ground:
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:49 pm

Second one would be better IMO.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby targetman377 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:29 pm

the last one is better easier to see where they are.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Teflon Kris on Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:45 pm

Starting Positions

Would it work if:
    * The 6 legal stations are start positions

    * The 2 pirate stations are set as normal territories to be dished-out

    * Everything else is coded neutral.


I would imagine that in this scenario:
    * In 1-6 player games the pirates start neutral since 2 territories cant be shared out (remainder 2 start neutral). So everyone gets a share of the legal stations (1,2 or 3).

    * In 7-8 player games there aren't enough starting positions so they get thrown in the 'pot', along with the 2 pirate stations, making 8 teritories to be shared-out - 1 each :D (1 remainder being neutral in 7-player games).


Objective

The first post suggests the objective might be to hold 5 of the 6 legal stations? If so, whack in a one-liner for the wannabe air-wave comtrollers. Holding 5 of the 6 stations is pretty much a guarantee of winning - a bit like the Europe 1914 or Peloponnesian War objectives - and so maybe not necessary?


General Gameplay

Single-territory starts reduce player 1 advantages (and that it is not realistically possible to attack an oppoment first turn) - the more turns the players are kept apart the more any advantage diminishes, The only trouble could be in trips or quads where teams load up one player to take out aN opponent quickly - however, this wouldn't be an issue unique to this map.

Advancing in the game would most likely revolve around holding sponsors and pirate stations - and timing when to attack them. With legal stations being protected behind neutrals, player 1 may be able to hain an advantage by taking a pirate and leaving all his/her troops there? It would probably be risky though. Hmmm. What do you think?

It would all be much different in 7/8 player games as the pirate stations would be closer to sponsors, but also easy to attack at the start of the game. I imagine gameplay for 7/8 players wouldn't be as good as for fewer players, but a drawback I would like to think can be accepted given the uniqueness of the map as a small base-style map.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:42 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:Starting Positions

Would it work if:
    * The 6 legal stations are start positions

    * The 2 pirate stations are set as normal territories to be dished-out

    * Everything else is coded neutral.


I would imagine that in this scenario:
    * In 1-6 player games the pirates start neutral since 2 territories cant be shared out (remainder 2 start neutral). So everyone gets a share of the legal stations (1,2 or 3).

    * In 7-8 player games there aren't enough starting positions so they get thrown in the 'pot', along with the 2 pirate stations, making 8 teritories to be shared-out - 1 each :D (1 remainder being neutral in 7-player games).


That's essentially what I described above; I'm waiting to Benn to confirm whether or not this would work.

DJ Teflon wrote:Objective

The first post suggests the objective might be to hold 5 of the 6 legal stations? If so, whack in a one-liner for the wannabe air-wave comtrollers. Holding 5 of the 6 stations is pretty much a guarantee of winning - a bit like the Europe 1914 or Peloponnesian War objectives - and so maybe not necessary?


Pretty much dropped the objective. No need to overcomplicate things.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:56 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:So the regular stations should be distributed before the pirates, no?

No - the starting positions are randomly assigned. Any surplus are then put into the standard pot to be dished out, unless they are coded as underlying neutral starts.


So much I understand; that implies that the program's process is:
A) Randomly assign as many starting positions as possible to the players such that every player gets an equal amount
B) Put the surplus of these into the standard pot
C) Divide the standard pot equally among the number of players (or the number of players plus 1 for 2-player games)
D) Make the remainder neutral

Is this inaccurate?


No it's correct.
A)true, equally and randomly assigned to players
B)True, if not coded as an underlying neutral
C)True
D)True

But, in a 4players game, with 6 SP, 2 standard regions and everything else neutral.

A) each player will receive 1 SP
B)2 SP will be put in the standard drop
C)4 regions in the pot for 4 players --> 1 for each player no neutral

in a 4 player game each player will start with 2 regions, so pirate stations aren't assigned only in 8 players games and a player could start with 2 pirate stations...maybe this is what Mr.Benn was referring to... :-k

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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:04 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:But, in a 4players game, with 6 SP, 2 standard regions and everything else neutral.

A) each player will receive 1 SP
B)2 SP will be put in the standard drop
C)4 regions in the pot for 4 players --> 1 for each player no neutral

in a 4 player game each player will start with 2 regions, so pirate stations aren't assigned only in 8 players games and a player could start with 2 pirate stations...maybe this is what Mr.Benn was referring to... :-k

Nobodies ;)


If the normal stations were SPs then in this 4-player scenario, wouldn't each player get 1 SP & their 2nd region being either a SP or a pirate? If the pirates were the SPs then one player could get both in 4P games.

Either way, it is a good point, pirates would enter the popular 4-player format (incl. 4P Dubs) - ouch !
Last edited by Teflon Kris on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:10 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:But, in a 4players game, with 6 SP, 2 standard regions and everything else neutral.

A) each player will receive 1 SP
B)2 SP will be put in the standard drop
C)4 regions in the pot for 4 players --> 1 for each player no neutral

in a 4 player game each player will start with 2 regions, so pirate stations aren't assigned only in 8 players games and a player could start with 2 pirate stations...maybe this is what Mr.Benn was referring to... :-k

Nobodies ;)


In this 4-player scenario wouldnt each player get 1 SP & their 2nd region being either a SP or a pirate?

Either way, it is a good point, pirates would enter the popular 4-player format (incl. 4P Dubs) - ouch !


yes, 1SP and 1 pirate
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:34 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:Either way, it is a good point, pirates would enter the popular 4-player format (incl. 4P Dubs) - ouch !


I guess there'd be a 1/3 chance of one team holding both pirates. I'm not quite sure if that's a problem, though, and if it is, how to fix it.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Aalmeida17 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:02 pm

i like it and i wanna play it :D :lol:
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby MrBenn on Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:07 am

I love the fact that starting positions mess with everybody's mind :lol:

Your description above was correct - and DJ Teflon suggested an excellent implementation of it.

So:
1. All of the "standard" territories coded as neutral
2. Pirate stations NOT coded as neutral.
3. Radio stations not coded neutral
4. The 6 Radio stations coded into start positions

This means:
2p - each player will be allocated 3 radio stations. The pirates revert to neutral as there is not enough for an even deal.
3p - each player will be allocated 2 radio stations. The pirates revert to neutral.
4p - each player will be allocated 1 radio station. The pirates enter the pot to be allocated with the surplus radio stations.
5p - each player will be allocated 1 radio station. The pirates and remaining radio station revert to neutral.
6p - each player will be allocated 1 radio station. The pirates revert to neutral.
7p - the starting positions are ignored. The pirates and radio stations are allocated, with the surplus territory going neutral.
8p - the starting positions are ignored. The pirates and radio stations are allocated; 1 to each player.

This way, no single player will ever own more than 1 pirate from the drop. There is a possibility that two players on the same team (4p/8p dubs/quads) will drop both pirates, but there's not a lot that can be done about it...
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Teflon Kris on Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:03 am

I'm getting the feeling that your gameplay system is acceptable despite the potential double-pirate team games possibility. ;)

Nice work evil :D
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:19 pm

I guess that element's fine, then. For my next step, I'm thinking of taking a closer look at the configuration, reworking the board, maybe adding a few territories to put a bit more distance between the stations. This could take a little while but if anyone has any analysis in this direction, that would of course be appreciated.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:25 pm

Hmm.. a few moar territories would be good IMO. Perhaps in the upper part would be the best place to add them.

Although, if you're going to redo the graphics, might I suggest starting from the large version this time... Trust me, going from small to large is a real PITA (been there)... :D
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby MrBenn on Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:49 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:I'm getting the feeling that your gameplay system is acceptable despite the potential double-pirate team games possibility. ;)

Nice work evil :D

If my mathematics still serves me right, then the odds are (1/56 = 1.8%) for 8p dubs and (3/56 = 5.4%) for quads.

Both within reasonable limits. ;-)
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:51 pm

MrBenn wrote:
DJ Teflon wrote:I'm getting the feeling that your gameplay system is acceptable despite the potential double-pirate team games possibility. ;)

Nice work evil :D

If my mathematics still serves me right, then the odds are (1/56 = 1.8%) for 8p dubs and (3/56 = 5.4%) for quads.

Both within reasonable limits. ;-)


I think the problem comes with 2v2: There's a 1/3 chance that one team starts out with both pirate stations. The only thing that can be really done about that is to more or less balance the pirates with the legal stations, I think.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby MrBenn on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:43 pm

MrBenn wrote:4p - each player will be allocated 1 radio station. The pirates enter the pot to be allocated with the surplus radio stations.
Evil DIMwit wrote:I think the problem comes with 2v2: There's a 1/3 chance that one team starts out with both pirate stations. The only thing that can be really done about that is to more or less balance the pirates with the legal stations, I think.

So in 4p dubs, there is 1/4 chance of a given player having a pirate. There is also a 1/4 chance of the other partner having a pirate station. So the probability of both is 1/4 * 1/4= 1/16 = 6.25%. On second thoughts, it might be 1/4 * 1/3 = 1/12 = 8.33%... In either case, this is still below the arbitrary 10% threshold (if my hasty maths is still holding up)
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:43 pm

MrBenn wrote:
MrBenn wrote:4p - each player will be allocated 1 radio station. The pirates enter the pot to be allocated with the surplus radio stations.
Evil DIMwit wrote:I think the problem comes with 2v2: There's a 1/3 chance that one team starts out with both pirate stations. The only thing that can be really done about that is to more or less balance the pirates with the legal stations, I think.

So in 4p dubs, there is 1/4 chance of a given player having a pirate. There is also a 1/4 chance of the other partner having a pirate station. So the probability of both is 1/4 * 1/4= 1/16 = 6.25%. On second thoughts, it might be 1/4 * 1/3 = 1/12 = 8.33%... In either case, this is still below the arbitrary 10% threshold (if my hasty maths is still holding up)


That's for any given player. If we're not given a player, the probability goes up fourfold. That is, since both pirates are necessarily assigned, let's use Player C to refer to the player who gets Carlin. Player C can't also have Klein, so there are three possible players left to whom Klein might be assigned, and one of them is Player C's teammate. That's a 1/3 chance.

By the same method we can see that in 8-player doubles, there's a 1/7 (about 14%) chance of Player C's partner belonging to the same team as C. In 8p quads that becomes 3/7 or 43%.

That means I need to pick one of the following:
--> Make the pirates more like regular stations to the point that there's barely a difference between them
--> Balance the pirates and legal stations so that they behave differently but statistically there's no advantage to getting one or the other (rather difficult, I suspect)
--> Decide that Good Morning Woodboro's nature as a small conquest map requires that it be limited to 6 players, and hope that the management agrees
--> Wait around for more XML tricks to become available
--> Ignore the issue and hope it's not a problem
--> Any other brilliant ideas?
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby MrBenn on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:39 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:--> Any other brilliant ideas?

We could decide that this is as balanced as we can make it for 8 players. If it emerges as a significant defect during Beta, then we could consider restricting it to 6 players...
Does that sound like a hypothetically viable solution?

</me goes to re-examine his degree certificate... who put 'mathematics' on there 8-[ >
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:53 pm

Yeah, that sounds like a plan. Though since I'm restructuring the map right now, I'll try to make the pirates a little more balanced.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby yeti_c on Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:54 pm

Just a general comment here dimwit... I really like this map your second attempt here at CC...

It's really refreshing, original and amusing - all things I like to see in life!!!

I can't tell which pirate station is which on the map?!

Change the pirate stations to not border the sponsors? ... either that or make the bonus with a sponsor weaker for Pirate stations (Pirates don't have sponsors anyway?)

MrBenn wrote:</me goes to re-examine his degree certificate... who put 'mathematics' on there 8-[ >


Amusing.

C.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1)!

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:00 am

Thanks to everyone who's commented and who continue to comment. There's been a long gap since the last update, partly because I've started having actual work to do, and partly because I'd reached a point where I wasn't sure where I could take the map but I knew I could do better. So I went ahead and completely redid the map in vector graphics, and changed the configuration around while I was at it. Lapid and Roy are now the pirates; Ott and McKay are radio fanatics (which serve as targets for the radio antennae to assault).

Click image to enlarge.
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Now, I'm hardly done -- I have to put up the instructions, the title, probably a backdrop of some sort -- but I think this is an improvement. It'd certainly be easier to change around this way.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1) -- New look on P. 6

Postby ender516 on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:06 pm

Can I ask what graphics tool you used for the vector graphics? It seems to me that scalable vector graphics should be the best avenue to a map that can be scaled up or down without loss of detail. Since the "start with the large map"/"start with the small map" debate doesn't seem to have been completely settled yet, SVG might be the way to sidestep the issue.
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Re: Good Morning Woodboro (V4.1) -- New look on P. 6

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:20 pm

ender516 wrote:Can I ask what graphics tool you used for the vector graphics? It seems to me that scalable vector graphics should be the best avenue to a map that can be scaled up or down without loss of detail. Since the "start with the large map"/"start with the small map" debate doesn't seem to have been completely settled yet, SVG might be the way to sidestep the issue.


That's the plan. I'm using Inkscape; it's a pretty spiffy tool.
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