German/Italian Unif.[D, Gp, Gr] BETA, all files p.1

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/21/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:11 pm

Thanks Kab for you useful crits!

-why are the mountain treatment different in the two maps? I'm trying to decide which style I like better so I threw both up to see which you people might like best. I'm starting to lean towards the draw mountains but I think I might have to do them again.

- maybe the extra bonus should appear in the legend marked with a box as well, but with a diagonal line dividing it in 2 colours. It's a good idea, I kind of wrote it off because I assumed that numbers over the dash might look too visually confusing. I'll give it a shot and see.

-any reason why the colours in the boxes don’t match the one existing in the regions? Because i didn't turn down the opacity on the boxes, will do

-could you make the army circles a little bit more transparent so they don’t get that huge presence over the board (very beautiful by the way, with that pleasant colour grade) Def. can do

-speaking of colour grade, if you could get a way of differentiating a bit more the neutral gray from the others would work fine. Maybe with a hatch or texture of any kind, maybe the faded flag of the respective neutral country. The hatch texture might work well, I'll give it a shot. I think putting a flag in there might distract too much from the actual map... plus Luxembourg would be a pain.

-those numbers that appear in the regions with the crosses and the shields are starting neutral troops right, could you use the real numbers? Correct. Yeah, I ought to do that... i was just lazy and didn't take the time to do it. Will do this next round though.

-the number circles don’t seem to fit that well inside the icons/symbols.... especially in the crosses case. I’d suggest placing the circles near the symbols but not inside them. Hmm... I rather like it. I moved them from next to the symbol because they were crowding up the territory... I'll turn down the opacity on the dots first, if that doesn't work i'll revert to the next to the icon set up.

-just a personal thing... I prefer the term armies instead of soldier when referring to the bonus.... makes it more realistic. You would not unify Italy with a hand full of soldiers :) Lol. Yeah, I can do that. Seems to make more sense. Mabe I;ll switch it on my American Colonies map as well.

Keep on the good work!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/21/09

Postby captainwalrus on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:17 pm

I like the mountains in the Italian one better. I don't really get the dotted line thing, is it just that those territories are in both bonus regions? Water connections could be a little lighter or smaller, either one.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/21/09

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:24 pm

I also prefer the mountains in the Italian map... far better.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/21/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:48 pm

Alright, got some new versions... I couldn't figure out how to switch to the normal numbers that CC uses... i found the 00s but I can seem to find the actual numbers... any help would be great.

I tried decreasing the opacity on the squares with mixed results. I might switch it up next round. Anyway, here we go:

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/23/09

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:00 am

Industrial Helix wrote:I couldn't figure out how to switch to the normal numbers that CC uses... i found the 00s but I can seem to find the actual numbers... any help would be great.


0-9 CC Numbers.psd ;)

edit: more comments this evening (when i'm not at work) ;)

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/23/09

Postby Kabanellas on Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:17 am

-The circles in the German map seem to be more transparent... I prefer that option.
-I like the flags on the neutral countries (actually I'm trying them in the Napoleonic Europe project :)) - just not sure if they should be more faded out or added a bit more of grey in them, so they won't pop out us much. The red from the Ottoman Empire is maybe too close from one used in The Two Sicilies...
-making the icons a little smaller could work better, I think
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/23/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:13 am

Thanks ian!

Kab, whoops... turns out one of the problems with working on two maps is that when you make a fix you have to do it to BOTH maps. In this case I forgot to tone down the army circles. Will do.

Shrinking the symbols. Yeah. It needs to be done I think. I originally threw them in as an improve but now that this map is a tad more advanced, I could probably play with it some more.

The thing is with the neutral flags, the background/grunge look is the early stages of a watercolor painting I found in a tutorial, and its darker in spots than it is in others. The reason the Turkey flag is so saturated is because of that. I think I'm going to be completely unable to get an even style for the neutral flags, but desaturated turkey is a definite try for the next update. I'll play with it, see what happens.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/23/09

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:31 pm

You should work on the larger version, as long a you know that the small one works, since it is easier to shrink it that enlarging it.

Instead of the dashed line, perhaps fill the territory with a gradient from one color to the next, or use like stripes of one on a background of another, cause as of now, it is hard to tell what is going down with them. Maybe just get rid of the line all together, that would make it more clear that it is all one territory.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/23/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:55 am

Ok, no one seems to like the idea of the dotted line which means its got to go. The concept is that a territory has a dotted line then it can be used as part of two bonuses. For example, the dotted line on S-H shows that holding the Denmark bonus yields 1 army, if you hold the Denmark bonus AND S-H, then it yields 2 armies, but if you hold North Germany you get 6 Armies, if you hold North Germany AND S-H you get 7 Armies. So the territory of S-H is part of two bonuses and hence it has two territories and a dotted line to act as the bonus region border.

But anyway, I tried to take a page out of Kab's book and do the hatched area, which will then corresspond with a hatched square in the bonus legend. BUT, it looks out of place and a tad strange I think. I had to convert the territory name to White so it would show up. I need some opinions on whether it looks alright or not.

Also, I made large versions of both maps... it was surprisingly uncomplicated. Take a look.

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/25/09

Postby Kabanellas on Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:04 am

Hi Helix!

Could you make the hatched lines a bit less darker? maybe grey....

The large version is looking good, the army circles seem a bit large though.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/25/09

Postby drwho1979 on Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:42 pm

I think the maps are both looking real good =D> =D> =D> .. I agree with the other post that the circles for the armies are a bit large. I also think that both maps show get potential. One question, have you ever giving thought to a future concept :ugeek: of combining boths maps into one large version kinda like the WWII europe map. I think that as a trio that would be really neat. :D
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/25/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:19 pm

Kab, Yeah, i can turn it gray... I'm thinking about maybe turning down the opacity could be a solution as well.

Dr.who - Thanks for the support and suggestions. Interestingly enough, the two maps could be linked to form a nice map of central Europe.. CC just won't allow it because it will break the rules regarding map size and all that.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/25/09

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:16 pm

Hello Helix,

some hints for the italian map from an italian guy ;)

Image

  • use Aosta instead of Monferrato (monferrato is where you have piemonte circle now)
  • The correct name is piemonte
  • Liguria is Genoa
  • Parma and Modena aren't a part of toscana during 1860 but indipendent countries.
  • This map could help you with borders and regions ;) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Unification_of_Italy_1815-1870.jpg
  • There aren't mountains between venezia and bezecca (but there are between bezecca and tyrol)

I like the idea to add some name of battles to the map (lissa, bezecca, custoza) , they weren't regions during that period, but they were important places during italian unifications. Good choice =D>
If possible I'd like to see Roma with 5 troops? Roma was an hard objective during the unification and the last one to raise the white flag. (1870)
If i'm not wrong, Nice was a part of kingdom of Sardinia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/TannerMapKingdomSardinia1839.jpg

Industrial Helix wrote:I tried to take a page out of Kab's book and do the hatched area, which will then corresspond with a hatched square in the bonus legend. BUT, it looks out of place and a tad strange I think.

Agree, it looks out of place.

More suggestions (also for the german map) come soon ;)

Nice maps, go on!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/25/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:23 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Hello Helix,

  • use Aosta instead of Monferrato (monferrato is where you have piemonte circle now)
  • The correct name is piemonte
  • Liguria is Genoa
  • Parma and Modena aren't a part of toscana during 1860 but indipendent countries.
  • This map could help you with borders and regions ;) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Unification_of_Italy_1815-1870.jpg
  • There aren't mountains between venezia and bezecca (but there are between bezecca and tyrol)
The problem with Toscana, Parma and Modena is that they won't work as individual bonus regions given their size, but they do work as a grouping in the area, which is what I chose to run with. If anyone can come up with a gameplay aspect that would give them the proper recognition then I'd be happy to use it. We'll see what happens. As for the rest, these are all awesome suggestions, they will definitely b implemented. Thanks a ton!

I like the idea to add some name of battles to the map (lissa, bezecca, custoza) , they weren't regions during that period, but they were important places during italian unifications. Good choice =D>
If possible I'd like to see Roma with 5 troops? Roma was an hard objective during the unification and the last one to raise the white flag. (1870) yeah, that seems like a good option, perhaps the autodeploy for it could be a tad higher.
If i'm not wrong, Nice was a part of kingdom of Sardinia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/TannerMapKingdomSardinia1839.jpg Nice and Savoy were originally part of Sardinia but were sold to the Second Empire of France in exchange for help during the wars of Italian Unification.

Industrial Helix wrote:I tried to take a page out of Kab's book and do the hatched area, which will then correspond with a hatched square in the bonus legend. BUT, it looks out of place and a tad strange I think.

Agree, it looks out of place.

More suggestions (also for the german map) come soon ;)

Nice maps, go on!
Have a nice day
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 9/25/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:26 am

Ok, this should address all the previously mentioned concerns.

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:49 am

Helix, I don't know if you did that already, but I've inserted the German map in the Bonus Calculator:

those were the bonus values I got

DN - 5
DN + S-H - 5
KD - 0 (it shows a value of 0,42)
KD + S-H - 1
KM - 2
DS & B - 7
O-P - 3
W-P - 5
PPR - 2
PPR + E - 3
EF - 2 (it shows a value of 2,12)
EF + E - 2 (it shows a value of 1,95)
O - 6

the numbers seem to be needing some adjustment (not a real problem). Something worries me though - how will you justify a raise in Deutsche Nordzustande with S-H, same goes for Danmark. It gets even worst with L'Empire getting Elsab, that will make its borders drop from 2 to only 1, making the bonus calculator going down instead of asking for more bonus.... :?
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby ender516 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:39 pm

I have a suggestion for the hatched area. I think a common cartographic method for showing a disputed area is to have the colours representing the two claimants hatched together. So rather than half green with grey hatching and half grey with grey hatching, use green and grey hatched together, with the stripe of each colour being the same width. For an example of the style of hatching I mean, see the Aksai Chin region on this Wikipedia map, which hashes the beige of India with the light brown of China.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby captainwalrus on Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:42 pm

battle for iraq does a good job of having regions in multiple bonuses, but it is fine here, I think it is clear enough.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:39 am

Kab - Yeah, i had to play with the bonus calculator numbers to make the map seem functional. I mean, i didn't think it was a good idea to have the Denmark bonus worth nothing. I wanted the disputed territories to mean something and enable a player more... making them worth no added advantage seems to undermine this. France is a major problem because it does have its sole single border of Alsace, which offers a few possible solutions:

The Paris territory is already running a 5 neutral... increase this to increase the difficulty of obtaining the bonus or to increase the time delay before a player gets the bonus. What makes this difficult is that Paris is a game objective and I don't want to make it too difficult to obtain.

Throw in Benelux as a killer neutral displaying the options that the Prussian govt had in taking on France. Though I'm hesitant to do this as it is not what happened in the wars.

I'm definitely open to suggestions on this matter. But I'm leaning towards leaving the bonus close to what they are.

Ender - Hmm... that might be a good idea. I'll give it a shot and see how it comes out. Thanks for the suggestion.

Captain - Good to hear. I'm glad that it is clear, now its time to find out how to make it a bit more aesthetically pleasing.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:42 pm

Sure, you need to have a bonus for holding Denmark. I’m just pointing that the payback when holding S-H will be huge. In fact it will be the same for holding DN and S-H, you are giving a 2 extra bonus with no border increase, and remember that the calculator asks for a 5 troop bonus for holding DN, you’re raising it already to 6.

As for France… I really don’t know how to pull that one off. Again, you start with a higher number than the one asking by the calculator which would be 2 instead of 3 (even with those neutral 5 – for that calc with neutral troops I used Andrew’s updated calculator :)), and you’re giving a 2 extra bonus (from 3 to 5) for a reduction in borders. Not coherent I think…
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby captainwalrus on Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:22 pm

OK graphics

Not really digging them right now, they look kinda odd and pixely.
  • Some of the borders look a little too straight. There are too many angles, not enough curves. Even it it is technacly a straight border or an angle instead of a curve, there is no one that is going to call you out on it if you change it just for looks.
  • For the texture, it just comes across as being something you took then really stretched out. It seems like you put a texture over the whole this, but it was too small, so you just expanded it, but it ends up not coming out clean. It is especialy noticable in the non playable areas like Russia and the Ottoman territories. Try to find a similar texture, but larger sized so it comes across as baing clearer.
  • I like the mountains a lot, though, good job.
  • I like how in Germany, the big red one has a gradient, it looks cool how it gets darker toward the bottom mountains, perhaps try that for other mountains? Have the bonuses that border the mountains get darker as they go toward the mountains.
  • The rivers are too bright blue, IMO. It kind of clashes with the rest of the map, and there wouldn't be that much of a difference from the sea water and the freshwater. Also, some of the rivers extend out into the sea a bit in an odd way (the ones at the top of the Germany one).
  • What is the yellow thing sort of beind the und in the lable of Kroatien und Slawoien? look closely, if you don't see anything, then it could just be a trick my eyes are playing.
  • On the Italy one, the mountains in between Tyrol and Steiermark, the 3rd one up, which is really over Steiermark more than Tyrol, is the color of Tyrol, but it should be the color of Steirmark.
  • The sea connections could be made thinner (with a glow maybe?) since right now they stick out too much. Also curve them a bitmore, it looks akward when some are straight but some are curved, and the curved ones are better, IMO.


Some of that stuff is just nitpicky, so you can adress them later, but that is mose of the stuff I see graphics wise for now.

Edit: the objective text glow is too bright also, lower the opacity maybe?
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:38 am

Must say I like the graphics :)

Captain has a point about the rivers, and yes it all seems a little stretchy. I have no problem with it apart from the lines, especially the border lines that look a bit pixelated. The expanded gradient, being intentional and part of the graphic concept – it’s ok for me. I dig it
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:58 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Click image to enlarge.
image


Thanks for the nitpicks Cap'n and Kab. I think they helped for sure. I made a load of graphical changes, the big onebeing that I swapped out the background texture for something a little more aesthetically pleasing. I redrew the borders on Germany and adjusted the sea connections on Italy and added them in for Denmark to make sure it was clear. I overhauled the bonus boxes and adjusted the numbers some.

Alsace is worth 2 more points to Prussia West while only being worth plus 1 for France. As France has the advantage with the reduction of borders, the incentive to gain the bonus for West Prussia is greater, which should help to balance the game.

Let me know what you guys think, you've been a great help so far!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/07/09

Postby ender516 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:38 am

If you decide not to go with my hatching suggestion, you might want to try placing the troop circles in the disputed/shared regions on the colour boundary. This might make it more apparent that the region falls into both zones. This looks very feasible in all cases except S.-H. which is a little cramped, unless you shift the colour boundary instead of the troop circle. Of course, with my hatching scheme, the boundary is diffused and the troop circle looks shared no matter where it sits. ;) Another reason to try my scheme is that it might avoid confusion about boundaries. For example, with the current colouring, Venezia, Lombaria, and Custoza almost look like four territories with one of those confusing four-corner boundaries. Yes, your hatching runs through all of Venezia, but my eye takes more note of the sharp colour boundary, leaving me wondering at first if Venezia can even attack Custoza.

Is there a typo in the legend? Is it not supposed to be "Preussische" (sorry, don't know the code for the German sharp s)? Also the colour of the PPR box does not match the map very well: it seems too white.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/07/09

Postby captainwalrus on Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:17 pm

=D> =D>
I like the new texture. It is really good.
There are some other nitpicky things that I will save for later.
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