German/Italian Unif.[D, Gp, Gr] BETA, all files p.1

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Kabanellas on Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:49 am

Helix, I don't know if you did that already, but I've inserted the German map in the Bonus Calculator:

those were the bonus values I got

DN - 5
DN + S-H - 5
KD - 0 (it shows a value of 0,42)
KD + S-H - 1
KM - 2
DS & B - 7
O-P - 3
W-P - 5
PPR - 2
PPR + E - 3
EF - 2 (it shows a value of 2,12)
EF + E - 2 (it shows a value of 1,95)
O - 6

the numbers seem to be needing some adjustment (not a real problem). Something worries me though - how will you justify a raise in Deutsche Nordzustande with S-H, same goes for Danmark. It gets even worst with L'Empire getting Elsab, that will make its borders drop from 2 to only 1, making the bonus calculator going down instead of asking for more bonus.... :?
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby ender516 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:39 pm

I have a suggestion for the hatched area. I think a common cartographic method for showing a disputed area is to have the colours representing the two claimants hatched together. So rather than half green with grey hatching and half grey with grey hatching, use green and grey hatched together, with the stripe of each colour being the same width. For an example of the style of hatching I mean, see the Aksai Chin region on this Wikipedia map, which hashes the beige of India with the light brown of China.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby captainwalrus on Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:42 pm

battle for iraq does a good job of having regions in multiple bonuses, but it is fine here, I think it is clear enough.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:39 am

Kab - Yeah, i had to play with the bonus calculator numbers to make the map seem functional. I mean, i didn't think it was a good idea to have the Denmark bonus worth nothing. I wanted the disputed territories to mean something and enable a player more... making them worth no added advantage seems to undermine this. France is a major problem because it does have its sole single border of Alsace, which offers a few possible solutions:

The Paris territory is already running a 5 neutral... increase this to increase the difficulty of obtaining the bonus or to increase the time delay before a player gets the bonus. What makes this difficult is that Paris is a game objective and I don't want to make it too difficult to obtain.

Throw in Benelux as a killer neutral displaying the options that the Prussian govt had in taking on France. Though I'm hesitant to do this as it is not what happened in the wars.

I'm definitely open to suggestions on this matter. But I'm leaning towards leaving the bonus close to what they are.

Ender - Hmm... that might be a good idea. I'll give it a shot and see how it comes out. Thanks for the suggestion.

Captain - Good to hear. I'm glad that it is clear, now its time to find out how to make it a bit more aesthetically pleasing.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:42 pm

Sure, you need to have a bonus for holding Denmark. I’m just pointing that the payback when holding S-H will be huge. In fact it will be the same for holding DN and S-H, you are giving a 2 extra bonus with no border increase, and remember that the calculator asks for a 5 troop bonus for holding DN, you’re raising it already to 6.

As for France… I really don’t know how to pull that one off. Again, you start with a higher number than the one asking by the calculator which would be 2 instead of 3 (even with those neutral 5 – for that calc with neutral troops I used Andrew’s updated calculator :)), and you’re giving a 2 extra bonus (from 3 to 5) for a reduction in borders. Not coherent I think…
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby captainwalrus on Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:22 pm

OK graphics

Not really digging them right now, they look kinda odd and pixely.
  • Some of the borders look a little too straight. There are too many angles, not enough curves. Even it it is technacly a straight border or an angle instead of a curve, there is no one that is going to call you out on it if you change it just for looks.
  • For the texture, it just comes across as being something you took then really stretched out. It seems like you put a texture over the whole this, but it was too small, so you just expanded it, but it ends up not coming out clean. It is especialy noticable in the non playable areas like Russia and the Ottoman territories. Try to find a similar texture, but larger sized so it comes across as baing clearer.
  • I like the mountains a lot, though, good job.
  • I like how in Germany, the big red one has a gradient, it looks cool how it gets darker toward the bottom mountains, perhaps try that for other mountains? Have the bonuses that border the mountains get darker as they go toward the mountains.
  • The rivers are too bright blue, IMO. It kind of clashes with the rest of the map, and there wouldn't be that much of a difference from the sea water and the freshwater. Also, some of the rivers extend out into the sea a bit in an odd way (the ones at the top of the Germany one).
  • What is the yellow thing sort of beind the und in the lable of Kroatien und Slawoien? look closely, if you don't see anything, then it could just be a trick my eyes are playing.
  • On the Italy one, the mountains in between Tyrol and Steiermark, the 3rd one up, which is really over Steiermark more than Tyrol, is the color of Tyrol, but it should be the color of Steirmark.
  • The sea connections could be made thinner (with a glow maybe?) since right now they stick out too much. Also curve them a bitmore, it looks akward when some are straight but some are curved, and the curved ones are better, IMO.


Some of that stuff is just nitpicky, so you can adress them later, but that is mose of the stuff I see graphics wise for now.

Edit: the objective text glow is too bright also, lower the opacity maybe?
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:38 am

Must say I like the graphics :)

Captain has a point about the rivers, and yes it all seems a little stretchy. I have no problem with it apart from the lines, especially the border lines that look a bit pixelated. The expanded gradient, being intentional and part of the graphic concept – it’s ok for me. I dig it
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/01/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:58 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Click image to enlarge.
image


Thanks for the nitpicks Cap'n and Kab. I think they helped for sure. I made a load of graphical changes, the big onebeing that I swapped out the background texture for something a little more aesthetically pleasing. I redrew the borders on Germany and adjusted the sea connections on Italy and added them in for Denmark to make sure it was clear. I overhauled the bonus boxes and adjusted the numbers some.

Alsace is worth 2 more points to Prussia West while only being worth plus 1 for France. As France has the advantage with the reduction of borders, the incentive to gain the bonus for West Prussia is greater, which should help to balance the game.

Let me know what you guys think, you've been a great help so far!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/07/09

Postby ender516 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:38 am

If you decide not to go with my hatching suggestion, you might want to try placing the troop circles in the disputed/shared regions on the colour boundary. This might make it more apparent that the region falls into both zones. This looks very feasible in all cases except S.-H. which is a little cramped, unless you shift the colour boundary instead of the troop circle. Of course, with my hatching scheme, the boundary is diffused and the troop circle looks shared no matter where it sits. ;) Another reason to try my scheme is that it might avoid confusion about boundaries. For example, with the current colouring, Venezia, Lombaria, and Custoza almost look like four territories with one of those confusing four-corner boundaries. Yes, your hatching runs through all of Venezia, but my eye takes more note of the sharp colour boundary, leaving me wondering at first if Venezia can even attack Custoza.

Is there a typo in the legend? Is it not supposed to be "Preussische" (sorry, don't know the code for the German sharp s)? Also the colour of the PPR box does not match the map very well: it seems too white.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/07/09

Postby captainwalrus on Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:17 pm

=D> =D>
I like the new texture. It is really good.
There are some other nitpicky things that I will save for later.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/07/09

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:05 am

A map with the real regions (and names) to use with "regno delle due sicilie"

http://www.regione.abruzzo.it/ospiti/covatu/covatu_file/image050.jpg

it's possile to have smaller dots or something else for sea routes?
Finally add impassable on both maps and.... you'll be ready for a preliminary review ;)

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/07/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:24 pm

I made the Germany map larger so I could fit in the title, which I added to Italy as well.

I changed the sea routes in an attempt to look like chalk line or something. I really don't think i like the dots, so any suggestions on sea routes would be great!

Added impassables in the legend.

Made a few more name changes in Italy as per Nobodies request.

Tried to match the legend white with the Prussia white.

Changed hatches to stripes, much better I think.

Forgot to add a r in Preussiche but did it in the ps file after I uploaded to photobucket.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby ender516 on Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:07 am

I'm glad the stripes worked out.

On the Italy map, in the Game Objective legend, "Control" is misspelled and there is no reason to abbreviate "Shields" to "Shiel.", and if there was a reason, "Shlds." would be a better abbreviation, don't you think?
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Seulessliathan on Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:17 am

looks interesting, but one request:

Can you please use german OR englisch names (for german ter, same for other countries)? Cologne & Bavaria OR Köln & Bayern etc? I hate unnecessary mixup of languages. If you need german names, pm me (or maybe better daydream, he is a master of both languages)
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:00 am

The stripes are working great!!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:03 am

Ender516 - nice catch on control and I think there is a glitch with the d on shields. I'll have to check the file and see what's up.

Seulessliathan - I intended to use the native language of each country to name the territories, so German for the Austrian and German terrs. I expect I missed some though I was reading off of German maps. If you've got the time just post the corrections here for the German and Austrian terrs. and I'll make the changes, thanks!

Thanks Kab, I'm really quite pleased with it!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:17 pm

Hello Helix,
Sorry for taking so long. ;)

German Map:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Gameplay:
Just a thought: elsaß and S.H. required to gain their respective bonuses.
France 7 regions 1 to defend with only 2 bordering regions/2zones : 3
PPvR 4 regions 2 to defend with 7 bordering regions/3 zones : 4
DN 6 regions 5 to defend with 7 bordering regions/4 zones: 5
KD 3 regions 1 to defend with 1 bordering rgions/1 zones: 2
If a player has to hold the entire zone to gain the bonus we will see some nice fights between opponents ;)

WP seems more than a 3 to me, it has a half-central position onthe map and your impassables make it very hard to hold:
5 to defend, attacked by 10 regions.....increase it to +4/+5 ?

Graphics:
  • Just personal, but i think that the sea routes can be done better. A simple dashed line?
  • You missed a border between Oberpfalz and prag/Linz
  • Sachsen border with Brezlau?
  • Can you make more visible the background texture on the white zone?
  • Some border are very tricky, but you can refine them later. ;)

Italian Map:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Names spelling:
    Aeosta is Aosta
    Piedmonte is or Piemonte or Piedmont

Gameplay:
Lissa is a part of any bonus? (i don't think )
Shared regions Savoy/Venezia/Romagna (see above in the german review)
It's strange bot to have a bridge on the Po river. Custoza-Parma could be a good idea, there was built one of the first briges on the river (Borgoforte 1254). I think that it's too hard to go from north to south and viceversa.

Graphics:
Sea routes: Don't look so good , again a dashed line? (with a chalk effect, it's good ;) )
Some borders are more thin...can you make them similar? :)

Looking forward your next update
Nobodies

p.s. Try a test with the flags/important people behind the titles. Increase trasparency, i think that they pop up a bit too much hidding the two titles.

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:39 pm

Here for the review.
Has possibilities. Could use some improvement on the borders and mountains. The borders seem a little blurry and too thick, and the mountains are blurry as well. If those 2 things were adjusted, This could end up, to be a winner.
8-) Good luck.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby whitestazn88 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:13 pm

these maps look pretty nice. i will probably be back tomorrow to give more feedback, but i'll enjoy my 21st birthday for now.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:01 pm

Wonderful idea, Helix. I really look forward to this.

On a broader scheme (applying to both maps), they are overcrowded, and there are a couple of the usual suspects to blame for it. The lack of land-sea separation (think drop shadow, outer glow, bevel, etc.); the way that the borders are all the same width—and a very large width at that—instead of bonus borders larger than tert borders; and a large, bold font in all caps are the main ones. So:

  1. Land-sea separation - well, like I said before, this is a big one for all maps. The trick is to maintain the 19th-Century look while still offering one of the staple 21st-Century Photoshop effects for the betterment of the map.
      For Germany it's not as big of an issue, due to the smaller presence of water around the playable area. However, for Italy a slight outer glow would do the map a lot of good, clarity-wise. Go with size over spread, in Photoshop terms.
  2. Border size - biggest one here. What you should probably do is go over all the continent borders with a 2px brush, then the inner-cont. tert borders with a 1px brush. Or you could do 3px, 2px—the point is that the continent ones are bigger than the tert ones.
  3. Font - I love it, it fits the style perfectly, but it's just too big as you have it. Maybe it's the caps, or both. Experiment…

For a gameplay note, maybe you could add a tweak and add neutral territories off the map as Cavour, Garibaldi, and Bismarck? Holding all of Prussia & Bismarck would give you a bonus; holding S. Italy & Garibaldi a bonus; the same with N. Italy & Cavour.

Some other thoughts are that the rivers need to be more prominent—dark outer glow to distinguish from land, esp. in light regions; darkening the color would help, too; there are some points where the borders are either missing or just confusing (Cologne, Oberpfalz); instead of "7 with x," "+1 with x" indented under the main bonus.

Great start =D>
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby lt_oddball on Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:48 am

can you not find military medals for France (on Paris) Denmark (on Kopenhagen) and Habsburgs (Vienna) ?
<<why Dybböl and königsgradz ? >>
To plant the german (basic) Iron Cross on foreign troop-generating-centers is giving a wrong message.

The Italy map doesnot have the same problem.


I hope the neutral countries Holland, Belgium , Luxemburg , Switserland, etc..are impassable ?


I like the maps/themes.
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intellegor ulli.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:02 pm

porkenbeans - The mountains were just something I tried out based on a tutorial online, but I've since been messing around with it and think I have something better. Stay tuned on the mountains. I see what you mean about the borders now that you mention it, I think its because some of the borders are from the original scale up to large from small and some have been redrawn. I'll be going over the entirety of them to get a uniform look and eliminate blur. Thanks for your crits!

whitestazn - happy birthday!

killing - For the land and sea I will try what you have suggested and see how it pans out. As for the border size, I intend to redraw them all for the next version. As for the font, it comes in all caps so there's not much I can do about it that. I might shrink it a little as suggested though. The rivers have been going constant changes, I can't seem to find something that works but I will keep trying. As for the addition of personality territories, its certainly interesting but its not a direction I want to take this map in. Thanks for your input!

It_oddball - The Iron Crosses and Shields are put in to show the important places during each war of unification. In the case of Italy, all the important places were in what is now Italy. In the case of Germany, all the important battles were outside of Germany. Prussia and Austria waged war with Denmark for Schleswig Holstein and won the battle of Dybbol. Prussia then warred with Austria-Hungary and defeated them in Konigsgratz which lead to the annexation of several of the German territories under the protection of Austria. The expanded Prussia and ally Bavaria then warred with France, defeated them at Sedan and captured Paris in 1870-1. Bavaria and Prussia agreed to unite and The German Empire was declared at Versailles with Wilhelm I, King of Prussia, as Kaiser of Germany. So the historical fact was that Germany waged its wars of unification outside of Germany, rather than in and this map reflects this. I chose Prussian signs because they were Prussian military victories, rather than French or Danish or Austrian, and they were battles instrumental in the formation of the German Empire.

I'm not trying to reinforce the perception that Germany was an aggressive state any more than it was during the admin of Bismarck and Wilhelm I, I see what you mean about sending wrong signals but I think these are historical fact and there is no embellishing involved. For what its worth, Denmark broke the London protocol which resulted in its battleground defeat and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. Sure Bismarck goaded the French government, but that's a minor detail.

Also, All the countries not involved in the wars of Unification are impassable. Thanks for your input!

To do:
Add mountains in better effects.
Redraw all borders
Rivers
Play with font size
Spell check piedmonte
Last edited by Industrial Helix on Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:23 pm

I know that you will hear different from a few map makers, but (and I know this first hand from a friend of mine that works as a graphic artist for a local T.V. station), ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS start with your large version first. You can scale down without loosing detail. If you try to go the other way and scale up, you will always have a certain amount of loss in detail. No ifs and or butts.
I know the argument put forth by some that it is easier to start with your small version first. Because you can make sure that your text will not be too small to read. Well, all you really need do, is never make your text smaller than 18 pix. while working on your large map version. 16 is pushing it, but some fonts work better than others at small sizes. That way you are pretty safe from encountering any problems when sizing down. ;) If you are unsure check first to make sure the font will size down to where its going to be.
Last edited by porkenbeans on Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby the.killing.44 on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:25 pm

18px is title-size…

Why are you changing the mountains? I love them as is!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:30 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:18px is title-size…

Why are you changing the mountains? I love them as is!
18 pix. is what I used on my large version Romania map. My small version is 30% smaller than that, and the text is still legible. I would not want it any smaller than that so no smaller than 18ix. on the large is my rule of thumb. This is only a general rule of thumb, as fonts are all different, and some work better than others at small sizes. All you really have to do if you have any concerns, just make sure before hand that your font can be scaled down to the % that your small map is.
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