German/Italian Unif.[D, Gp, Gr] BETA, all files p.1

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:03 am

Ender516 - nice catch on control and I think there is a glitch with the d on shields. I'll have to check the file and see what's up.

Seulessliathan - I intended to use the native language of each country to name the territories, so German for the Austrian and German terrs. I expect I missed some though I was reading off of German maps. If you've got the time just post the corrections here for the German and Austrian terrs. and I'll make the changes, thanks!

Thanks Kab, I'm really quite pleased with it!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:17 pm

Hello Helix,
Sorry for taking so long. ;)

German Map:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Gameplay:
Just a thought: elsaß and S.H. required to gain their respective bonuses.
France 7 regions 1 to defend with only 2 bordering regions/2zones : 3
PPvR 4 regions 2 to defend with 7 bordering regions/3 zones : 4
DN 6 regions 5 to defend with 7 bordering regions/4 zones: 5
KD 3 regions 1 to defend with 1 bordering rgions/1 zones: 2
If a player has to hold the entire zone to gain the bonus we will see some nice fights between opponents ;)

WP seems more than a 3 to me, it has a half-central position onthe map and your impassables make it very hard to hold:
5 to defend, attacked by 10 regions.....increase it to +4/+5 ?

Graphics:
  • Just personal, but i think that the sea routes can be done better. A simple dashed line?
  • You missed a border between Oberpfalz and prag/Linz
  • Sachsen border with Brezlau?
  • Can you make more visible the background texture on the white zone?
  • Some border are very tricky, but you can refine them later. ;)

Italian Map:

Click image to enlarge.
image


Names spelling:
    Aeosta is Aosta
    Piedmonte is or Piemonte or Piedmont

Gameplay:
Lissa is a part of any bonus? (i don't think )
Shared regions Savoy/Venezia/Romagna (see above in the german review)
It's strange bot to have a bridge on the Po river. Custoza-Parma could be a good idea, there was built one of the first briges on the river (Borgoforte 1254). I think that it's too hard to go from north to south and viceversa.

Graphics:
Sea routes: Don't look so good , again a dashed line? (with a chalk effect, it's good ;) )
Some borders are more thin...can you make them similar? :)

Looking forward your next update
Nobodies

p.s. Try a test with the flags/important people behind the titles. Increase trasparency, i think that they pop up a bit too much hidding the two titles.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:39 pm

Here for the review.
Has possibilities. Could use some improvement on the borders and mountains. The borders seem a little blurry and too thick, and the mountains are blurry as well. If those 2 things were adjusted, This could end up, to be a winner.
8-) Good luck.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby whitestazn88 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:13 pm

these maps look pretty nice. i will probably be back tomorrow to give more feedback, but i'll enjoy my 21st birthday for now.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:01 pm

Wonderful idea, Helix. I really look forward to this.

On a broader scheme (applying to both maps), they are overcrowded, and there are a couple of the usual suspects to blame for it. The lack of land-sea separation (think drop shadow, outer glow, bevel, etc.); the way that the borders are all the same width—and a very large width at that—instead of bonus borders larger than tert borders; and a large, bold font in all caps are the main ones. So:

  1. Land-sea separation - well, like I said before, this is a big one for all maps. The trick is to maintain the 19th-Century look while still offering one of the staple 21st-Century Photoshop effects for the betterment of the map.
      For Germany it's not as big of an issue, due to the smaller presence of water around the playable area. However, for Italy a slight outer glow would do the map a lot of good, clarity-wise. Go with size over spread, in Photoshop terms.
  2. Border size - biggest one here. What you should probably do is go over all the continent borders with a 2px brush, then the inner-cont. tert borders with a 1px brush. Or you could do 3px, 2px—the point is that the continent ones are bigger than the tert ones.
  3. Font - I love it, it fits the style perfectly, but it's just too big as you have it. Maybe it's the caps, or both. Experiment…

For a gameplay note, maybe you could add a tweak and add neutral territories off the map as Cavour, Garibaldi, and Bismarck? Holding all of Prussia & Bismarck would give you a bonus; holding S. Italy & Garibaldi a bonus; the same with N. Italy & Cavour.

Some other thoughts are that the rivers need to be more prominent—dark outer glow to distinguish from land, esp. in light regions; darkening the color would help, too; there are some points where the borders are either missing or just confusing (Cologne, Oberpfalz); instead of "7 with x," "+1 with x" indented under the main bonus.

Great start =D>
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby lt_oddball on Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:48 am

can you not find military medals for France (on Paris) Denmark (on Kopenhagen) and Habsburgs (Vienna) ?
<<why Dybböl and königsgradz ? >>
To plant the german (basic) Iron Cross on foreign troop-generating-centers is giving a wrong message.

The Italy map doesnot have the same problem.


I hope the neutral countries Holland, Belgium , Luxemburg , Switserland, etc..are impassable ?


I like the maps/themes.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:02 pm

porkenbeans - The mountains were just something I tried out based on a tutorial online, but I've since been messing around with it and think I have something better. Stay tuned on the mountains. I see what you mean about the borders now that you mention it, I think its because some of the borders are from the original scale up to large from small and some have been redrawn. I'll be going over the entirety of them to get a uniform look and eliminate blur. Thanks for your crits!

whitestazn - happy birthday!

killing - For the land and sea I will try what you have suggested and see how it pans out. As for the border size, I intend to redraw them all for the next version. As for the font, it comes in all caps so there's not much I can do about it that. I might shrink it a little as suggested though. The rivers have been going constant changes, I can't seem to find something that works but I will keep trying. As for the addition of personality territories, its certainly interesting but its not a direction I want to take this map in. Thanks for your input!

It_oddball - The Iron Crosses and Shields are put in to show the important places during each war of unification. In the case of Italy, all the important places were in what is now Italy. In the case of Germany, all the important battles were outside of Germany. Prussia and Austria waged war with Denmark for Schleswig Holstein and won the battle of Dybbol. Prussia then warred with Austria-Hungary and defeated them in Konigsgratz which lead to the annexation of several of the German territories under the protection of Austria. The expanded Prussia and ally Bavaria then warred with France, defeated them at Sedan and captured Paris in 1870-1. Bavaria and Prussia agreed to unite and The German Empire was declared at Versailles with Wilhelm I, King of Prussia, as Kaiser of Germany. So the historical fact was that Germany waged its wars of unification outside of Germany, rather than in and this map reflects this. I chose Prussian signs because they were Prussian military victories, rather than French or Danish or Austrian, and they were battles instrumental in the formation of the German Empire.

I'm not trying to reinforce the perception that Germany was an aggressive state any more than it was during the admin of Bismarck and Wilhelm I, I see what you mean about sending wrong signals but I think these are historical fact and there is no embellishing involved. For what its worth, Denmark broke the London protocol which resulted in its battleground defeat and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. Sure Bismarck goaded the French government, but that's a minor detail.

Also, All the countries not involved in the wars of Unification are impassable. Thanks for your input!

To do:
Add mountains in better effects.
Redraw all borders
Rivers
Play with font size
Spell check piedmonte
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:23 pm

I know that you will hear different from a few map makers, but (and I know this first hand from a friend of mine that works as a graphic artist for a local T.V. station), ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS start with your large version first. You can scale down without loosing detail. If you try to go the other way and scale up, you will always have a certain amount of loss in detail. No ifs and or butts.
I know the argument put forth by some that it is easier to start with your small version first. Because you can make sure that your text will not be too small to read. Well, all you really need do, is never make your text smaller than 18 pix. while working on your large map version. 16 is pushing it, but some fonts work better than others at small sizes. That way you are pretty safe from encountering any problems when sizing down. ;) If you are unsure check first to make sure the font will size down to where its going to be.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby the.killing.44 on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:25 pm

18px is title-size…

Why are you changing the mountains? I love them as is!
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:30 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:18px is title-size…

Why are you changing the mountains? I love them as is!
18 pix. is what I used on my large version Romania map. My small version is 30% smaller than that, and the text is still legible. I would not want it any smaller than that so no smaller than 18ix. on the large is my rule of thumb. This is only a general rule of thumb, as fonts are all different, and some work better than others at small sizes. All you really have to do if you have any concerns, just make sure before hand that your font can be scaled down to the % that your small map is.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby ender516 on Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:48 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:To do:
Add mountains in better effects.
Redraw all borders
Rivers
Play with font size

When you are playing with the font, don't forget the spelling mistake in PPR.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:04 am

Looking good IH.

Look to smooth some of your borders out a little bit, I know you're probably looking to maintain a close geographic constancy, but borders like the ones making up Hanover aren't necessary, and a little fudging of the border will allow a better fit for the territory name. You certainly look ready for the Foundry, graphics wise there some little spots that could use a bit of tidying up, but no major issues. Your gameplay has a lot of variations and should lend itself well to the game. Think about separating France a little more from the the maps. Historically, France dabbled in the affairs of these fledgling nations and in the end more or less FUBARed themselves for most of the latter half of the 19th century, just a suggestions, whatever you decide I'm sure is more than playable. ;) :D
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby lt_oddball on Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:24 am

Industrial Helix wrote:It_oddball - The Iron Crosses and Shields are put in to show the important places during each war of unification. In the case of Italy, all the important places were in what is now Italy. In the case of Germany, all the important battles were outside of Germany. Prussia and Austria waged war with Denmark for Schleswig Holstein and won the battle of Dybbol. Prussia then warred with Austria-Hungary and defeated them in Konigsgratz which lead to the annexation of several of the German territories under the protection of Austria. The expanded Prussia and ally Bavaria then warred with France, defeated them at Sedan and captured Paris in 1870-1. Bavaria and Prussia agreed to unite and The German Empire was declared at Versailles with Wilhelm I, King of Prussia, as Kaiser of Germany. So the historical fact was that Germany waged its wars of unification outside of Germany, rather than in and this map reflects this. I chose Prussian signs because they were Prussian military victories, rather than French or Danish or Austrian, and they were battles instrumental in the formation of the German Empire.

I'm not trying to reinforce the perception that Germany was an aggressive state any more than it was during the admin of Bismarck and Wilhelm I, I see what you mean about sending wrong signals but I think these are historical fact and there is no embellishing involved. For what its worth, Denmark broke the London protocol which resulted in its battleground defeat and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. Sure Bismarck goaded the French government, but that's a minor detail.



I know of the battles outside the borders (well admittedly, only the French one, declaration of unification in Versailles and taking of Elzass 8-[ ) ...but then the game implementation would have to be something like "conquer (at least ? of the following) Paris , Dybbol, Königsgrad, München and you get bonus of +? instead of the autodeploy +1 for each of these places you control .
Autodeploy +1 is something for "troop generating centers" ; Big cities with barracks, war Industry, food generation centers, invasion entry points, spawn points, etc.. and that is not the case here.
(It would be if it was meant as troop generation centers for the French in Paris, or the danes in Kopenhagen, or the Habsburgs in Vienna to put in their weight at these corners of the map).

So the iron crosses stay, but the request is to change the bonus benefit.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Kabanellas on Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:03 pm

porkenbeans wrote:I know that you will hear different from a few map makers, but (and I know this first hand from a friend of mine that works as a graphic artist for a local T.V. station), ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS start with your large version first. You can scale down without loosing detail. If you try to go the other way and scale up, you will always have a certain amount of loss in detail. No ifs and or butts.
I know the argument put forth by some that it is easier to start with your small version first. Because you can make sure that your text will not be too small to read. Well, all you really need do, is never make your text smaller than 18 pix. while working on your large map version. 16 is pushing it, but some fonts work better than others at small sizes. That way you are pretty safe from encountering any problems when sizing down. ;) If you are unsure check first to make sure the font will size down to where its going to be.


yes, my way too. Always from large to small.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby sam_levi_11 on Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:18 pm

dont know if its been discussed but modena, tuscany and parma were kingdoms of their own at the time i believe.

Also sardinia Peidmont owned savoy and nice, they could be a bonus for sardinia peidmont.

Lastly why is croatia is there? It doesnt seem to serve any purpose
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby natty dread on Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:36 pm

Always from large to small.


I learned this the hard way...
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:17 am

Porkenbeans - Yeah, graphically speaking its easier to downsize. What I intended to do with this map was figure everything out small and then go large once I was ready for major graphics modifications.

killing - I think the mountains are good, but they need a little tweaking and cleaning up. It's not going to be a major change.

ender - added to the to do list.

Red - Thanks! I'll adjust the borders a little to fit the names better. As for France, I think it was a major power during the wars of unification for both new states. Bismarck knew that he couldn't bring Germany to full power without pushing down France and Italy couldn't unify without a major power to counterbalance Austria. Balance of Power politics and war was a major factor for the creation of these states and that's why I'm trying to give the great powers more of a presence on the map.

it_oddball - I see your point about the troop generating centers but I think you might be looking at it differently than I am. You're looking at them as trooper generating areas for Germany or a Germany oriented player, but what you need to keep in mind is that they're also troop generating areas for an Austrian player or a French player or a Danish. If a player starts in Germany he's going to have to contest with players that started in Austria or Denmark or France.

sam levi - yeah, I think nobodies brought it up earlier. The problem with the individual kingdoms in the center is that there's to many of them and its hard to assign bonuses to each one without giving away the bonus. I didn't want to have a bunch of one ter. bonuses in the center of the map. So I grouped them as a single bonus. But as time goes on the historical inaccuracy nags at me so it might change yet, though I'm not sure how to do the bonuses. I'll give it some thought and any suggestions or ideas would be great.

As for Nice and Savoy, P-S sold it to France in exchange for help during the wars, hence Savoy is a duel occupied territory between P-S and France, Nice is too small to do such a thing graphically so I gave it to France.

I threw Croatia in there because when I cropped the area of Europe it was there and also part of Austria-Hungary. Croatia and the Dalmatian coast were also territorial ambitions of Italy's for quite some time. Furthermore, the naval battle of Lisse is out that way and I needed to round out that connection on the map.



Thanks everyone or the great feedback and input! I should have a new version coming up pretty soon answering these raised points.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:21 am

Yeah, it's like nat said, he learned the hard way. He most likely had to start from scratch to do his large version. To produce a quality map takes a lot of time and effort. So, why on earth would anyone want to double that by working on the small version first ? It makes much more sense to start with the large version, and just remember to make your text large enough that it can be scale down, for the small version. ;)
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby natty dread on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:30 pm

Well, not quite from scratch, but I know I'll have to do lots of finetuning on the large image in the future, if my map ever gets past the drafting room...
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:38 pm

natty_dread wrote:Well, not quite from scratch, but I know I'll have to do lots of finetuning on the large image in the future, if my map ever gets past the drafting room...
Well put it this way. Everything that you enlarged, has lost detail. Some things may not be so easily evident, but There Is loss of detail in Every brush stroke, believe me. These people that say to start from the small, do NOT understand this, and their eye is just NOT trained well enough to see it. :roll:
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Lieutenant porkenbeans
 
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/11/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:50 pm

I've got a new version that should address many of the concerns brought up. The only thing I haven't tackled yet is the sea connections, which I'm still trying to figure out how best to do.

The biggest change made is the addition of Lorraine in the Alsace region. I figure two provinces were annexed from France, so its historically accurate, and it helps to balance out some gameplay.

Cologne changed to Köln. Fixed Piedmont to Piemont. Fixed the game objective typo as well.

Redrew the borders.

Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
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Sketchblog [Update 07/25/11]: http://indyhelixsketch.blogspot.com/
Living in Japan [Update 07/17/11]: http://mirrorcountryih.blogspot.com/
Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: viewtopic.php?f=241&t=116575
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Cook Industrial Helix
 
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/23/09

Postby Raskholnikov on Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:21 am

Objective: Win ALL 4 Iron Crosses....

There ARE 5 Crosses!

(For all Next Generation fans, you know EXACTLY which episode I'm alluding to here ;) )
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/23/09

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:11 am

No idea what you're talking about :P but I fixed the Objectives on my version of the map. Thanks!
Sketchblog [Update 07/25/11]: http://indyhelixsketch.blogspot.com/
Living in Japan [Update 07/17/11]: http://mirrorcountryih.blogspot.com/
Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: viewtopic.php?f=241&t=116575
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Cook Industrial Helix
 
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/23/09

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:08 pm

There are "FOUR" lights. :lol:
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Lieutenant porkenbeans
 
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification 10/23/09

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:50 pm

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Onward and Upward
I do NOT visit this site and I'm NOT Team CC anymore.
All PMs are autobinned.
If you need to contact me, you should already have a way to do it without using this site.
Thanks to those who helped me through the years. :)
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