German/Italian Unif.[D, Gp, Gr] BETA, all files p.1

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification [D] 11/5 Gameplay!

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:53 pm

OK, I made most of the changes recommended. I rotated the boxes so they match with the above box, dropped some of the glow on the titles and lowered the drop shadow on the sea lanes. I made most of the name and territory changes that you suggested, Ian, but I did something a little different with Custoza. I want the territories that held the major battles to mean something, which was why originally it was a straight shot from Venezia to Piemont... so instead of adding another territory in there, I moved the east border over some so as to cover the actual spot, and brought back the straight shot via Custoza. It should be on the location as well as have gameplay significance. I also changed the Austro-Hungarian Empire around... Hungary is divided differently now and has most of croatia... I looked at a map and Dalmatia was kind of a detached set of islands part of Austria. That wouldn't make too much sense gameplay wise for me, so I relocated the border with Krain. It's fudging it, but I think it makes sense for the game play of this map.

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification [D] 11/5 GP! p. 7

Postby ender516 on Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:13 pm

Another good update. I'm glad you took my suggestion about rotating the boxes, but I think you missed the "With Romagna" box below the "Stati della Chiesa" box.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification [D] 11/5 GP! p. 7

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:25 pm

Yep, I sure missed it. I just rotated it on my version. You'll see it in the next update.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification [D] 11/5 GP! p. 7

Postby ender516 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:43 pm

Say, if you are still looking for different ways to draw the sea routes, and if you are using Photoshop, or know enough about it to emulate its features in the tool you do use, you might want to look at this idea. The graphics gurus discussing it seemed excited, but it's too far outside my knowledge space to comment very cogently.
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification [D] 11/5 GP! p. 7

Postby iancanton on Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:40 pm

the connections look pretty good now and u've made a decent job of hungary too. the only exception i can see is the bottom of the map, where cagliari-calatafimi-catania-messina-cosenza feels far too much like a section of rail sicily. can calatafimi border both messina and catania instead of only catania? also extend the apennine mountains so that lazio cannot attack abruzzi e molise - this is a cardinal fact of italian geography.

understandably, with all the recent changes, bonuses haven't kept pace and most look a bit high. the most obvious ones are hungary, which is a +2 rather than a +4, and france, which is a +4 (+5 with savoy) and not a +6 - france is nicely tucked away in the corner with only one enemy able to reach him. piemonte needs to be reduced to +5 (+6 with savoy) because it makes such a powerful combination, with only 4 borders, with france. ducati di toscana's +4 (+5 with romagna) was a hangover from when it had 4 borders; now that it has only 3, the bonus can be reduced to +3 (+4 with romagna). the two sicilies with reduced regions is now almost exactly classic europe or north america (+5 instead of +6). the only bonus that looks low is lombardy: maybe it can be +3 instead of +2, now that it has one extra region.

ian. :)
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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification [D] 11/5 GP! p. 7

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:01 pm

Hmm... interesting idea, Ender... Definitely a good find. I'll play with it and see what I come up with. For the time being, I like the dots and if necessary, will address the sea lanes come Graphics stamp time.

Ian, your crits have been taken and put into effect. I agree with everything, but withheld on the "with Savoy bonuses" as those bonuses now read "with Nice and Savoy." I'm open to reducing them, but I think some consideration ought to be given to them as it now requires two territories to get the bonus.

As for Germany, I made a graphics color switch. I think its an improvement... but I'm not 100% satisfied. It's late, I'll give it a mess about later. It just seems to lack the clarity that the Italy map has. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I also removed Luxembourg from the superbonus of France and West Prussia. It just seems historically inaccurate... well, it is. But As previously mentioned it should have some role and the gameplay would be better for it. For now, it is a non-bonus and will start just like any other territory.

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification [D] 11/5 GP! p. 7

Postby iancanton on Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:14 am

Industrial Helix wrote:those bonuses now read "with Nice and Savoy." I'm open to reducing them, but I think some consideration ought to be given to them as it now requires two territories to get the bonus.

good catch on nice and savoy: since they were handed over to france together, it makes sense that they are treated the same way on our map. i agree with the +2 extra for holding nice and savoy with either france or piemonte. the newly-reduced france, being in the corner, is a much easier bonus than piemonte and therefore ought to have a lower bonus of +3 (+5 with nice and savoy - 8 regions with 4 borders, similar to regno delle due sicilie). move the troop circle for nice to the south-west, so that we can see the border with genoa and the purple colour of the bottom stripe.

i've just noticed that the green, grey and white zones are all completely linear, for example lazio-roma-umbria-marche, giving a repetitive pattern. perhaps let lazio connect with umbria to reduce this effect (this looks like the easiest border to tweak).

u've reduced the ducati di toscana with romagna bonus to +4, as intended, but left the without romagna bonus unchanged at +4.

on the germany map, i wonder whether creating a luxemburg bonus box with the number 0 in it would be a neater way to show its zero bonus.

ian. :)
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/19 p. 7 Bonus? Luxembourg? Nice?

Postby Industrial Helix on Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:35 am

Thanks Ian. I think all the suggestions were adopted, plus a few graphical clean ups I made.

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Re: Wars for German and Italian Unification [D] 11/5 GP! p. 7

Postby iancanton on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:16 pm

i've just been to geneva, where the red cross is based. henry dunant founded this organisation as a result of seeing the wounded from the battle of solferino, in 1859. might solferino be a more appropriate name for the lombardy region? it has the advantage that the region doesn't have a similar name to the bonus zone of which it is a part. the location is also correct for solferino, though u might like to change the border so that, of the 3 lombardy regions, only custoza connnects to venezia.

http://www.redcross.org.uk/standard.asp?id=90628

iancanton wrote:the newly-reduced france, being in the corner, is a much easier bonus than piemonte and therefore ought to have a lower bonus of +3 (+5 with nice and savoy - 8 regions with 4 borders, similar to regno delle due sicilie).

once u amend france to +3 (+5 with nice and savoy) in the legend, so that this bonus balances regno delle due sicilie, i see no major gameplay issues for italy. a single stamp will be applied for both maps together, unless u prefer one for each.

three of what i presume are spelling mistakes on the germany map: the spellings i know are württemberg, salzburg and breslau.

http://www.baden-wuerttemberg.de/en/index.html
http://www.visit-salzburg.net/
http://www.wroclaw-life.com/wroclaw/breslau

keeping the same bonus colours on both maps for france, austria and hungary is a nice touch.

ian. :)
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/19 p. 7 Bonus? Luxembourg? Nice?

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:32 pm

Well... that was kind of quick. This map is progressing so much faster than 13 Colonies... but I think its partially because I'm not making a lot of the same mistakes.

Anyway, here's Italy adjusted... i won't be posting it until the gameplay stamp has been awarded and Germany has been settled. So lets get talking about Germany!

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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/24 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby number five on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:28 am

so if you had green and gray you would get bonus of 12?
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/24 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby RjBeals on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:51 am

georgous maps. well done. the only thing i would suggest is try to blend the river into the ocean a bit more. It's tough to do and make it look good, but it can be done.

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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/24 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:07 pm

If you held green and gray, you'd get either 8 or 11, depending on whether you hold the optional territories.

RJ, I see what you mean and yeah, its probably worth it. Once these get GP'd I'll hit it with the graphics.
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/24 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby iancanton on Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:35 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:This map is progressing so much faster than 13 Colonies... but I think its partially because I'm not making a lot of the same mistakes.

there's no substitute for experience. u spent a lot of time early on experimenting with various things to make the map look good, which had to be discarded once the advanced graphics analysis started.

Industrial Helix wrote:If you held green and gray, you'd get either 8 or 11, depending on whether you hold the optional territories.

what happens if u hold green and purple? my feeling is that the +2 extra bonus for nice & savoy ought to be given only once, so that the total bonus is +10 and not +12. we need to say so somehow on the map, since it isn't completely clear just now.

iancanton wrote:might solferino be a more appropriate name for the lombardy region? it has the advantage that the region doesn't have a similar name to the bonus zone of which it is a part. the location is also correct for solferino, though u might like to change the border so that, of the 3 lombardy regions, only custoza connnects to venezia.

u didn't like this idea?

on the germany map, salzberg has somehow been transformed into salzbuttrg instead of salzburg, while württemberg still needs that extra t. the west preussen colour on the map doesn't match that in the legend.

try extending baden so that it meets plfalz and turns württemberg into a non-border region, as shown on the map below. is it worth removing the bridge to elsass? this bonus zone will still be fiendish to hold.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/germany/xbaden.html

ian. :)
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/24 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:35 pm

Ian, I think I missed the bit on Solferino, but I changed it this round. I also adopted most of your suggestions save for the second bridge across the Rhine, now extending from Baden. I think two bridges are necessary as to reflect the invasion of France in the Franco-Prussian War.

I definitely agree on only receiving the bonus once though the notion of securing it twice is interesting... I mean, I France turned the war around and invaded Prussia than it would have been doing extremely well, the double bonus reflects this. I dunno... I'm uncertain as how this might play out in the XML and whether or not the XMl will allow it to only be awarded once. If any XML experts can give me some thoughts on this let me know.

RJ- I ran a blur on the river into the sea... let me know how you think it is. It seems better to me, but another set of eyes are always appreciated.

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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/24 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby ender516 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:42 am

Industrial Helix wrote:I definitely agree on only receiving the bonus once though the notion of securing it twice is interesting... I mean, I France turned the war around and invaded Prussia than it would have been doing extremely well, the double bonus reflects this. I dunno... I'm uncertain as how this might play out in the XML and whether or not the XMl will allow it to only be awarded once. If any XML experts can give me some thoughts on this let me know.

I won't claim to be an expert, but I think getting the "With ..." bonuses awarded only once is a matter of using "super-continents" and setting overrides.
It is a little fussier to code when the extra amount to award for the "With ..." zone depends on the base zone it is combining with. For example, Elsaß Lothringen adds one to the three for L'Empire des Français, but adds two to the two for Preußische Provinzen von Rhein. So, when you have them all, what should you get? Clearly three for L'Empire des Français plus two for Preußische Provinzen von Rhein, but the extra could be one, two, or three. (Heck, if you wanted, you could make it even more, but I don't see why you would.) Decide what outcome you want and I can code it up for you.
It is a little simpler to code if the "With ..." bonus is the same no matter what base zone it goes with and is only awarded once, because I think it can then be done without overrides, but simpler code is no reason to set the bonuses that way.
Industrial Helix wrote:RJ- I ran a blur on the river into the sea... let me know how you think it is. It seems better to me, but another set of eyes are always appreciated.
I'm not RJ, but It looks good to me (just north of Romagna, right?). I would do the same sort of thing on the German map as well: some of those rivers almost seem cut off from the sea (the branch nearest Königsberg is the worst offender).
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/27 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby Raskholnikov on Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:20 am

A few remarks on the German territory names:

Deutsche Nordzustande should more accurately be "Deutsche Hansestadte"

Deutsche Sudstaaten should be "Suddeutsche Staaten"

OstpreSen should be "OstpreuSen"

PreuSiche Provinzen von Rhein should be "PreuSiche Rheinprovinzen"

Hesse should be "Hessen"

Thuringia should be "Thuringen"

Good luck!

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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/27 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:47 pm

Ender - Yeah I think the Italian river looks decent for now, we'll see what RJ's eye picks up. As for the coding, I'll give it a look when i get to the XML stamp and probably request assistance. But I think you're right, one can override the other. The trick i figuring out which overrides which... I think the historical defender ought to override the german/italian bonus. Which as of now, is what I will do. To be honest, once a player is in a position to hold both bonus regions, he's likely got a strong hold on the game anyway.

Rash - Thanks so much. I've got Nobodies checking my bad Italian and he corrected a lot of my mistakes on the Italian map, thanks for helping out with the German. Do you speak German, btw? I'll implement them with the next version.
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/27 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby Raskholnikov on Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:54 pm

Yes, i'm part German and lived in Germany. Dont forget the Umlauts (two little points above certain letters like u) which i couldnt put because i dont have them here. I'll check out the next version and let you know if something needs to be changed. Good maps!
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/27 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:57 pm

Thanks Rash, I made the changes you suggested but I think I'm missing a ü somewhere (for me its just ctrl+u and then type the letter you want with them). Let me know what you think.

I also fixed some of the rivers so they blend in better.

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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/30 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby Raskholnikov on Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:35 pm

Deutsche Hansestadte and Thuringen: both these need Umlauts (..) on top of the underlined letters. Great job otherwise!
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/30 p. 7 Make Bismarck proud...

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:25 pm

Thanks Rash. I made the changes on my copy, you'll see them in the next version.
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/30 p. 8 Germany set for GP?

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:28 pm

Bumping the thread cause I think Germany is about good for gameplay. Italy, as I recall has been given the approval. We just need the one stamp for the thread.

Also, I've got another announcement... Gilligan will be doing the XML for these maps =D>
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/30 p. 8 Germany set for GP?

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:41 pm

Do Galizien and Schlesien border? The mountain is there, but it looks like they could touch on a small tip.

And Breslau and Posen---they don't border, correct?

Similar Nurnberg and Sachsen don't border, correct?

Those are areas I'd maybe clean up a little bit to make sure the game play isn't confusing.

============

The mix between highlighted and highlighted text is kind of strange on the eye---mostly the game objective and title vs the legend and territory names.

Have you also considered using dashes instead of dots for territory connections? I feel like dashes might be more cohesive, but this is a minor point and fine either way.


--Andy
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Re: German/Italian Unif. [D] 11/30 p. 8 Germany set for GP?

Postby iancanton on Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:55 pm

galizien was a province of austria, not of hungary.

http://www.ieg-maps.uni-mainz.de/mapsp/ ... Serie2.htm
http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/97/ ... alicia.htm

this leaves hungary with only 2 regions, so a starting neutral will be needed on magyar kiralysag.

swap the bonuses for east and west prussia. east prussia is isolated and easy to hold, so it ought to have a smaller bonus than west prussia. i'd like france's bonus to be reduced too, since it'll be difficult to dislodge someone from that corner.

on the italy map, i recommend 3 start positions on magenta, solferino and custoza to stop someone from dropping the +3 lombardo-venetien bonus (there's a 6%+ chance of player 1 starting with one or more of the lombardo-venetien, magyar or ducati di toscana bonuses). the proposed 3 start positions will be ignored in games of 4 or more players.

on a real map, custoza is almost directly between solferino and venezia. i know that u want to have a direct route from venezia to custoza to torino for historical purposes. can u cut off the westernmost part of venezia and give it to custoza, so that solferino no longer borders venezia? this will make the real location of custoza part of our map's custoza region, while keeping the desired historical attack route - it's not ideal because these battles were fought near small places that did not give their names to the entire regions shown here, but might be the best compromise that we have.

ian. :)
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