[Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:09 am

saaimen wrote:That doesn't make sense. Graphics contain lines no matter what, lines connecting dots or lines enclosing regions.


If you can't see the difference between connectors and criss-crossers, I feel sorry for you ;)
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Little mistake

Postby sebaojeda on Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:18 pm

In the new Classic Map, "Buenos Aires" is correctly written on the map, but appears as "Beunos Aires" in the log and in the list of regions when you attack or reinforce.
Really little. Not even a bug or problem. I leave in the city, that´s why I noticed.

Thanks.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V11, page 37, 12/29/09)

Postby Esn on Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:15 am

bedub1 wrote:
bedub1 wrote:I saw the message it was updated, had to go check it out.

I still think it's retarded in order to see all the maps you first click on "start a game" and then on "browse maps". There should be a link to "map gallery" right below "game finder" or something....but on to the map.

It looks okay, except for Novosibirsk. Those 3 lines, 1 running all the way down to manila, is very poorly done.

Looking back through the revisions, R6 looks to be where it went from "Awesome start" to "now we are going down hill".

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I guess i'm the only one then....

I agree, V6 looks nicer than the current version. And those lines going down from Novosibirsk are a bit ugly and confusing.

Also... I'm sorry for not reading through the whole thread, but why was Port Moresby added, which was not in V6?
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby sensfan on Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:08 am

Bug.
On the map, territory S4 (Buenos Aires) appears on the picklist as Beunos Aires! A minor spelling error, but it's still a error.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby jiminski on Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:54 am

sensfan wrote:Bug.
On the map, territory S4 (Buenos Aires) appears on the picklist as Beunos Aires! A minor spelling error, but it's still a error.


i reckon that has been dealt with mate, it's because the image is of the older version.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby ender516 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:53 pm

jiminski wrote:
sensfan wrote:Bug.
On the map, territory S4 (Buenos Aires) appears on the picklist as Beunos Aires! A minor spelling error, but it's still a error.


i reckon that has been dealt with mate, it's because the image is of the older version.

Since the error shows in the picklist, that means the problem is in the XML, and a quick peek at http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Classic.xml shows that to be the case. However, I think this was mentioned earlier by MrBenn so we are just waiting for another upload by lack.
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Re: Little mistake

Postby edwinissweet on Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:47 am

sebaojeda wrote:In the new Classic Map, "Buenos Aires" is correctly written on the map, but appears as "Beunos Aires" in the log and in the list of regions when you attack or reinforce.
Really little. Not even a bug or problem. I leave in the city, that´s why I noticed.

Thanks.


hmm, true
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Re: Little mistake

Postby samuelc812 on Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:25 am

Merged with the Classic Map Thread ;)

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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby Lionz on Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:17 am

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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby saaimen on Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:07 pm

sully800,

is there really no way to make the in-game image resemble what you produced here?
It's a disgrace...
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby Time4Rugby on Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:56 am

This map is not "classic" A Classic map should have territories not cities for one thing, and second at least pick cities in the the territories. To get rid of Greenland, Madagascar, Mongolia and Irkutsk doesn't do justice to the game i love to play. Why did conquer club get rid of the territory style of the classic map.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:26 am

Time4Rugby wrote:Why did conquer club get rid of the territory style of the classic map.


Because of copyright reasons.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby zeros on Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:06 pm

What a gigantic improvement over "Classic Shapes" and "Classic Art" this is! (Both of which were very poor imitations of the world!).

Whilst not wishing to get into the politics of the difficulties Conquer Club had with the original manufacturers of 'Risk', CC seems the ONLY site that found using a map of the world a problem. As an aside, I cannot understand how anyone or any company can effectively own copyright of a Mercator projection of the planet we live upon. Furthermore, the argument that the original game's borders were contentious is a very hollow one; since any designer could choose to use different borders - straight lines for instance (or pretty well ANYTHING that was not a direct copy of said original).

It is almost a year since I played. I tolerated the irritation of not having a 'proper' world map... for a while. Then, with ever growing annoyance, I found another site that uses a proper world view and guess what? -Bye bye Conquer Club!

Tonight, for some inexplicable reason (perhaps simply a result of my inquisitive nature?), I thought I'd revisit my old friend: Conquer Club; before turning in for the night.

And this revelation of a proper map is the biggest single factor that I may now return. That said, I will be even more tempted if you put some borders in, instead of the rather crummy 'link-lines'. Just use straight lines for the borders of territories if you have to (even if no other site does).

However, I would like to express my thanks for those responsible for getting this very necessary 'act' together, to get a proper map: the most important, most obviously lacking aspect of Conquer Club.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:16 pm

There is a reason CC is noticed by Hasbro while other sites are not: CC is by far the biggest online "world domination game" site. The business is good enough that it makes Hasbro see CC as competition.

Thus any attempts to avoid copyright infringements and possible legal action from Hasbro are only sensible. I'm not exactly sure if CC was actually contacted by Hasbro and if they asked the map to be taken down, or if it was merely a precaution, but either way it is an act of preservation.

Welcome back to CC though.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby zeros on Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:56 am

Thankyou for such a quick response Natty. -I am impressed. And I appreciate the concerns over copyright.

I also understand copyright laws reasonably well.

Obviously a map of the world is not a problem, so we can therefore remove that from any meaningful discussion. Furthermore, actual coastlines and real borders of real countries are also beyond the reach of copyright law, unless such mapping can be shown to be a direct copy (as in 'photograph', 'photocopy', 'digital rip off' etc.) and used without the owner's consent. Equally; established boundaries of real continents may be represented by anyone, so long as the source of original material is not replicated without permission.

To put it simply: Hasbro owns copyright of its own exact design and ONLY that! And taking successful legal action against another party for infringement of copyright would require them to demonstrate that THEIR specific design - and not that of my encyclopaedia (or any other source) - had been copied.

If I draw a map of the world, together with its continents and countries but not copied directly from someone else's work; I have every right to publish my work, (to which I own copyright) and may grant reproduction of it to whomever I choose. And I can use the names of real countries and real continents in geographically accurate regions to describe such regions if I so choose without asking anyone's permission. (Since none of these distinctions are 'owned' by anyone). And, for what it's worth; I can use my own paint and canvas to produce a painting similar to one of Leonardo's and call it "The Lona Misa", so long as I do not attempt to pass it off as the original it is based upon.

We are therefore left with the rules of game-play - and NOT ANY representation of the real world and its regions (save that of Hasbro's actual design) - as the only contentious possibility...

Hasbro may be able to defend the 'concept' of the battles being decided with attacking and defending dice in the manner commonly used (presumably already without specific permission), as their 'intellectual property'. They may also be able to defend the game-specific deployment of forces and their subsequent movement and redeployment. They may even be able to defend the 'idea' that the game is decided when the playing area is completely dominated by one player.

But I have my doubts on this too...

Virtually any variation on original rules, automatically steps out of the realm of copyright. And the idea of a winner being decided by domination of a playing area is common to the nature of humans and ants alike; common to the concept of real warfare and chess; and common to the notion of six being greater than one. (-Just who gave them permission to use dice anyway?!)

Conquer Club already stands safely outside the bounds of copyright, since it is essentially a conceptualization of collective gaming with significant variation and choices for its participants - albeit based on some distant, physical world ancestor.

By analogy, Sony's Playstation has a game called Gran Turismo. It attempts to represent real world motor racing with 'real' cars and in some cases, 'real' circuits. It is the attempt to replicate these real cars and real circuits which constitutes the only need for Sony to get permission for 'reproduction'. They do not need to ask anyone's permission to invent their own circuit or their own 'four-wheeled vehicle', in spite of the fact that long ago, someone was the first to invent a road which came back on itself and someone else came up with the idea of a vehicle with four wheels...

Furthermore, no aspect of Conquer Club is a board game. And it can NEVER BE a board game. - In a very literal sense!

To sum up: Hasbro's copyright is necessarily design specific, no matter how much they'd prefer others not to 'reinvent' their idea...
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:44 am

Well hey, if you think you can manage to convince the admin of that, go ahead and try... I see little chance though, as obviously, CC is a business for him, it's how he feeds his family, so of course if there's even a chance that taking this action would enable Hasbro to close his business (and even a lawsuit by them could be harmful to the site: Hasbro has lots of money to hire lawyers for a legal battle, CC not so much) then it's no wonder he's playing it safe.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby zeros on Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:36 pm

Yes Natty: I very much appreciate that.

However, these fears are largely unfounded. Conquer Club is very much a reality and Hasbro have been unable to do anything about it for the very reasons I have presented. Indeed, any lawyer worth his salt would advise them of the simple legal position: that unless copyright is breached (as outlined in my previous posting) there is no action that they can take! Any such action would be doomed and Hasbro would pick up the total bill, not just a part of it. There simply has not been a breach of copyright. Simple. The end!

I am certain that this is why they have not already taken any action. -They know they cannot possibly win it unless a direct copy of their design is (stupidly) used.

In any case, the success of CC is clearly not reliant upon a replica 'board'. But this does not affect Conquer Club's right to publish its own design, complete with proper borders instead of tacky 'link-lines'.

P.S. Do you happen to know who it is that is truly in charge of Conquer Club? I mean; who is it that actually owns this fantastic thing? I get the impression you know something.

Meantime, please accept my thanks for your responses and guidance. Cheers.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:05 pm

P.S. Do you happen to know who it is that is truly in charge of Conquer Club? I mean; who is it that actually owns this fantastic thing? I get the impression you know something.


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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby zeros on Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:58 pm

Thankyou very much Natty.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:18 pm

zeros wrote:However, these fears are largely unfounded. Conquer Club is very much a reality and Hasbro have been unable to do anything about it for the very reasons I have presented. Indeed, any lawyer worth his salt would advise them of the simple legal position: that unless copyright is breached (as outlined in my previous posting) there is no action that they can take! Any such action would be doomed and Hasbro would pick up the total bill, not just a part of it.


Unfortunately that isn't the case in the US legal system. We don't have a "loser pays" clause where legal expenses are concerned. There have been various attempts to push this through, but lawyers form a pretty extensive lobbying group here, and there would be a lot fewer lawsuits filed if tort reform were ever to go through. It is possible to counter-sue for legal expenses, however, a big corporation like Hasbro has a big team of high-power lawyers already on the payroll. In the US legal system they could easily keep filing motions, briefs, and counter-motions. The goal in such a situation is not to get to trial. What they try to do is drag the case on as long as possible and force the target (lackattack in this case) to continue spending money on his lawyer week after week. In almost every case, the target of the lawsuit agrees to settle out of court rather than spend millions taking it to trial with no guarantee of recompense.

Now, lackattack is Canadian, so I'm not sure how that would affect things, since Hasbro is in the US. My guess would be that lack did talk to a lawyer at some point just to find out what he could and couldn't do. It's likely on their advice that the various terminology, as well as the map, from the original game is not to be found in anything official created on the site. He probably could win the lawsuit, and he might even manage to keep said lawsuit in a jurisdiction that would be more favorable than the US, but the changes he's made do not adversely affect the playability of the site, and this way there is no risk of future legal problems.

As an aside, I believe Hasbro did come out with a computer version of Risk at some point, and they might be able to make an argument that this site was in competition with that game. That may actually be one reason why we won't see AI-controlled opponents on this site.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:26 am

Hasbro was also planning their own online risk site... I don't know if they're still going through with it, but I'm worried that they'll see CC as competition if they do.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby jiminski on Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:13 pm

natty_dread wrote:Hasbro was also planning their own online risk site... I don't know if they're still going through with it, but I'm worried that they'll see CC as competition if they do.


there was an official site years ago which you could connect to if you had the CD (the swanky graphics of little soldiers shooting each other and so on) .. but i could never actually make it work.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:35 pm

No, that's not the one I mean... I think they were actually planning a site similar to CC.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby zeros on Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:30 pm

Interesting.

Special thanks to Doc Brown for clarifying the legal system in the USA.

I must admit, I was not certain of the legal system there, and based my argument on the British legal system, in the expectation that it was similar.

I must express incredulity that such a system is allowed to continue where, rather like this game we like so much; the guy who starts stronger almost always crushes his opponent. One might argue that in warfare, it is only to be expected - and I'd agree. But to have a legal system that, at least in principle, has been established through some form of moral code (rather than a desire to actually destroy one's opponent, regardless of rights and wrongs, surely?); this obvious lack of 'justness' must fly in the face of its purported values!

That said, I see exactly why the legal profession want to keep it the way it is. - No surprise there but it's 'morality' is so obviously flawed. How hypocritical can it get?!!

I'm disgusted that my idealised view is so far from reality. The system is basically saying that the wealthiest person is nearly always 'right'.

-You've shattered my illusions ........ ](*,)
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

Postby saaimen on Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:41 pm

That's not entirely true.

Cases like this one aren't just about what's right and what's wrong. There's no obvious justice or injustice going on here. The laws can't foresee every given situation, they were probably not thinking "Oh hey what if someone invents a board game based on a world map, and then later on a website expands the idea using different maps and terminology, are they breaking copyright laws or not? We should include that clause."
In these sort of 50-50 situations, the better lawyer may indeed find the tiny detail that invalidates the other's argument. But that doesn't mean the whole law system is flawed, or that any lawyer is immoral.
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