[Official] Classic Revamp [Quenched]

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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby sully800 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:35 am

Ah, this could all be so simple.

Yakutsk = Yakutsk. That's a city not a region, so it should be on this map. So if we add in Yakutsk and drop Chengdu do we get a good solution?

Then it would be Magadan and Anchorage that connect. Tokyo is where Japan would be. Hong Kong takes the current place of Chengdu. Hmmm, it might just work. :-k

Of course there are still 2 indias and 2 chinas (no mongolia and one less Russia) but I don't think all of those interior details matter as much as having specific cities in the countries they should be representing. I need to sleep, I'm not sure if this makes sense.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:41 am

Much better looking and works if you ask me. Fixed many of the issues with a few moves. :)
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:44 am

I know you may not want to change this but can we see a version that has straight lines? I think you may do away with many of the cluttered complaints.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby sully800 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:01 am

Here's an old version with straight lines. I think they make it look, well, horrible.

Image

Keep in mind the comments about clutter have still been a small minority. Most people have been supportive of the borders and globes (which are the main "clutter") so I think the map itself without them will be fine.

EDIT: I LOVE how this map has the exact connections that I am now proposing. Adding in Yakutsk and removing Chengu. Please note that I made that version over 4 months ago. :roll:
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby Robinette on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:19 am

oh wow... the straight lines are worse than i could have imagined...

the curved lines are quite nice,
and to me, they represent air routes...

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kinda like that... but with far fewer connections, lol
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby sully800 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:30 am

Indeed. In version 5 or 6 of World Cities there was a lot of discussion of air routes and how criteria for cities could be based upon whether they have a lot of air traffic. Of course I had just been traveling recently, so those maps where exactly what I had in mind.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby cairnswk on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:47 am

Sully...just my personal pref...i prefer the other curved connection lines...because you've got round aspects of the two mini-globes, the curved lines sit better with those globes rather than the straight lines i think... :)
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:59 am

I'm sorry, but Magadan just has no business being in this map. Could Vladivostok take its place without being too crowded? That city has about six times the population and fifty times the historical significance. If northeastern Asia looks a bit too sparse after that then: (A) Good. That's reality. (B) Try shifting the title rightward.
Anchorage is a little awkward too, particularly because Tokyo has a special connection to such a globally insignificant city. You might try shifting Anchorage -> Vancouver -> Denver or Anchorage -> Vancouver -> Los Angeles -> Honolulu, or even Anchorage -> Vancouver -> Los Angeles -> Mexico City -> Managua/Panama City/San Salvador/Tegus
Otherwise I'm rather fond of the latest city arrangement and especially glad to see the awkward Astana-Chengdu-Novosibirsk V is gone.

Moreover I absolutely agree that the flags need to come back.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby saaimen on Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:25 am

I don't.
I think the new layout is a lot more pure and classy - exactly what our Classic map should be like.
It feels less pushy, easier on the eye and overall more esthetical.
Nice work.

Hope this doesn't turn into a "Do NOT / Do SO" discussion...
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby mpjh on Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:33 am

Much better. Although I would like to see Madagascar back in the loop rather than Johannesburg. I don't know how the French are going to take being left out -- I mean where would you rather take your girl, Berlin or Paris, now come on.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby sully800 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:02 am

Antananarivo is the 47th most populous city in Africa (keep in mind, that most cities in Africa are not overwhelming in population to begin with). It is not important politically, socially, or anything else. And I doubt any new player will have heard of Antananarivo and be able to find it on the map. So no, I'm not going to add that city just because it sits within an arbitrary land mass, especially when a large well known city is a perfectly viable option. Making switches to the unknown cities would make gameplay much more difficult, especially for new recruits and others who don't use clickable maps.

Evil DIMwit wrote:I'm sorry, but Magadan just has no business being in this map. Could Vladivostok take its place without being too crowded? That city has about six times the population and fifty times the historical significance. If northeastern Asia looks a bit too sparse after that then: (A) Good. That's reality. (B) Try shifting the title rightward.
Anchorage is a little awkward too, particularly because Tokyo has a special connection to such a globally insignificant city. You might try shifting Anchorage -> Vancouver -> Denver or Anchorage -> Vancouver -> Los Angeles -> Honolulu, or even Anchorage -> Vancouver -> Los Angeles -> Mexico City -> Managua/Panama City/San Salvador/Tegus
Otherwise I'm rather fond of the latest city arrangement and especially glad to see the awkward Astana-Chengdu-Novosibirsk V is gone.

Moreover I absolutely agree that the flags need to come back.


That awkward V was just a mistake with the previous connections. I had a mislabeled city on the paper copy I use to determine the layout.

As for Vladivostok, I don't think that's an option because of the proximity to Beijing and Tokyo. If I wanted to put a city there, I would prefer Seoul any day (yes Seoul is a tighter squeeze but a much more important city).

As for Anchorage, I know it is a small city but people are familiar with it (at least Americans, and yes that is the primary user base). I think it makes sense to match the cities to their respective locations on the original Classic when possible and when it doesn't detract from the gameplay.



Back to the Athens/Istanbul debate: For no better reason, I think I prefer Athens because it is 2 letters shorter. Istanbul is crowding the neighbors a bit, but if others aren't concerned about that then I don't care either.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby mibi on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:30 pm

You still need to change the title font to something more appropriate.

Like this,

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not this,

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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby MrBenn on Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:06 pm

That title looks nice mibi... You could do this too:
Image

(I was trying to do something similar to the planes on the original classic, but rushed this to show what I was thinking of... You could put some ships in the water too... don't forget the random blob in Canada :lol:
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby RedBaron0 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:56 pm

Istanbul/Athens is representing Southern Europe from the original map, why no shift the circle over a smidgen, and get it close enough to the Italy to call it Rome. You'll probably have to push Berlin up a little, Stockholm too. You could then shift the circle for Dubai up and to the left enough to be Baghdad. (6.5 million vs. 2.25 million for Dubai) That might still be too close together to Tehran and Cairo.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby sully800 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:39 pm

Nice titles mibi and Benn! Simple but definitely effective. Much cleaner than the stuff I've produced of course. I still like the idea of including the conquer club font, logo, colors in the title. I also share your concerns about the title fitting with the rest of the map. I'll play around with it to see if I can reach a compromise.

As for ships, planes, bullet holes etc. Wouldn't that just be adding clutter? And is copying the original classic in so many regards really a good idea? I think we are quickly devolving to a map that is not unique in any way and that scares me.

RedBaron0 wrote:Istanbul/Athens is representing Southern Europe from the original map, why no shift the circle over a smidgen, and get it close enough to the Italy to call it Rome. You'll probably have to push Berlin up a little, Stockholm too. You could then shift the circle for Dubai up and to the left enough to be Baghdad. (6.5 million vs. 2.25 million for Dubai) That might still be too close together to Tehran and Cairo.


Rome is all the way over on the West side of the boot, which makes it way too close to Madrid and Berlin. I tried different combinations in the early drafts to include Rome and Paris, but that region is far too cramped to get all the world players.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:41 pm

sully800 wrote:As for ships, planes, bullet holes etc. Wouldn't that just be adding clutter? And is copying the original classic in so many regards really a good idea? I think we are quickly devolving to a map that is not unique in any way and that scares me.

Right, I don't think this map needs very much for added fluff. Planes in the title like MrBenn created is about the limit of extra fluff I'd like to see.


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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby MrBenn on Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:25 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
sully800 wrote:As for ships, planes, bullet holes etc. Wouldn't that just be adding clutter? And is copying the original classic in so many regards really a good idea? I think we are quickly devolving to a map that is not unique in any way and that scares me.

Right, I don't think this map needs very much for added fluff. Planes in the title like MrBenn created is about the limit of extra fluff I'd like to see.

I think we're all agreed... my mistake was to leave the <sarcasm> tags out of the following statement:
MrBenn wrote:You could put some ships in the water too... don't forget the random blob in Canada :lol:
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby sully800 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:19 pm

And away we go!

Click image to enlarge.
image


Changes
  • Reformatted Asia as stated earlier (switching out Chengdu and adding Yakutsk). I also switched Singapore to Bangkok to increase the space between Asia and Oceania
  • Reformatted Oceania, switching Melbourne to Perth and Auckland to Manila. This was done because the connections to Auckland always looked awkward with only 4 Oceania territories. I chose Manila because there are no exceptionally large cities in New Guinea that I could think of.
  • Turned off the globe bonuses and added in a simple list in the Pacific Ocean. This was possibly in part due to Auckland's disappearance which allowed me to shift the whole map to the right (and not cut off Alaska so much).
  • New title in the style suggested by mibi and Benn. Let me know what you think, I understand that I probably worked 10 times as hard as they did to produce an inferior product. :lol:

I'm going to be away for the next 4 days (going backpacking in the Finger Lakes of upstate New York!) so I won't be responding to comments for a bit. Just the same, keep the conversation flowing!
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V3, page 8, 10/9/09)

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:32 pm

Nice clean, crisp, readable. I like it!
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V3, page 8, 10/9/09)

Postby mpjh on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:45 pm

Yes, nice. 'cept for no paris.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V3, page 8, 10/9/09)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:52 pm

Looking closer and closer to the board game map... At what point are we vulnerable to copyright issues again?

Otherwise it's looking quite good, though I can't say I'm a fan of the planes. Weren't you going to redo the flag borders with the official flag icons? I'd've liked to see that.
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V3, page 8, 10/9/09)

Postby Peter Gibbons on Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:39 pm

I won't get into the "should this really be the new classic" debate right now. Just offer my thoughts on the map as is:

I think Africa and South America are done. They look fine and I can't think of any changes or suggestions to improve them, really.

For North America, just a minor cosmetic change: invert the curve of either the Edmonton-Montreal or Edmonton-Chicago connection.

For Europe, I'm really not sure what to do. The Berlin-Istanbul connection isn't totally clear because of how close they are (that should signal to everyone how much worse Paris or Rome would make it!). I know there's not much room to maneuver, but something does need to be done there.

Asia and Oceania is definitely where the action is and where the debate needs to be had...

My first point is that Dubai should be Mecca. I know there will be differing opinions there, but I think a straight vote would lead to Mecca.

Second, Manila is a distinctly Asian city. I don't think it should be part of Oceania. For that matter, even Jakarta is questionable insofar as strict geography--but since Indonesia was clearly labeled in Oceania on the original Risk board, I don't think that's as big an issue (and yes, I know some Risk boards draw the Philippines into Oceania).

Third, the other issue I raised in the old thread is that using Magadan is a joke. It's just not a world city by any standard.

So, what are the solutions to these final two points? Again, I'm not totally sure.

For Oceania, I think you can either change Manila to Port Moresby (the simple solution) OR if people aren't too concerned about having the geographic correspondence to the old Risk map, you make Perth the entry point, then you use Sydney, Darwin and Auckland as the other three Oceania territories (or Darwin could be the entry point).

As for Asia itself, there are a number of possibilities. If you take my above suggestion about Australia, that frees up Jakarta and Manila to be used in Asia, which would then open up all sorts of options. You could then slide everything down south, make Seoul the connection to Anchorage, and play around with the internal Asian cities to see what would work best insofar as minimizing clutter (Shanghai, Dhaka and Lhasa could all be in play, depending on what you would want to remove and what connections would need to be made).

Anyway, that's just my (extended) 2 cents. In short, I'd say Africa and South America are done, North America is essentially done, Europe has one small problem that needs to be addressed, and the focus should really be on Oceania and Asia. Asia's the problem (I have a preference for Oceania, but I'll be honest and say that there are a number of viable options that work).
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V2, page 6, 10/8/09)

Postby Robinette on Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:42 pm

sully800 wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image




  • First off... Have fun backpacking in the Finger Lakes, i assume the leaves are in full color now in upstate NY...

  • The reformatting is great... still wish we could have Seoul instead of Magadan, but can't see a way to do it...

  • Please lose the jets.... it's all such a professional map, and then BAM, so please... lose the jets...

  • I'm missing the globe bonuses and don't really like the simple list in the Pacific Ocean. Perhaps you could do the globes without writing the names of the continents... after all, there are just cities and the visual of the globe makes it very clear...

  • Consider swapping the bonus colors... oceania for South America should do the trick... will really help to keep the asia / oceania bonuses clearly seperated...

  • The lines connecting Magadan and Anchorage don't match... one is convex, the other is concave
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V3, page 8, 10/9/09)

Postby ender516 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:47 pm

I miss the globes, too. Would it satisfy the clutter-killers if the Western Hemisphere globe was moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific, leaving the Eastern Hemisphere globe in the Indian Ocean?
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Re: [Official] Classic Revamp (V3, page 8, 10/9/09)

Postby stokesy7 on Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:59 am

This map looks like an awesome change, however, i think that it should have adelaide instead of perth :D

Stokesy
Private 1st Class stokesy7
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:39 am

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