Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 41/44 [Quenched]

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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:56 pm

Raskholnikov wrote:Absolutely not bothering - we appreciate your advice. In light of our comments, how many neutrals would you specifically recommend to be placed on each of the following:

a) London;
b) Moscow;
c) Naval Battles;
d) Winter territories; and
e) remaining capitals?

Many thanks,

Raskholnikov


Moscow and London should both be difficult to take, more so than, say, Austria or Berlin. In London's case, I'd do it by isolating the UK further by making the battles around it start with 3 neutrals (maybe not so much St. Vincent since that's surrounded by neutral starts anyway). That would more accurately reflect British naval domination and just how hard it was to attack Britain by sea; it would also reflect just how tricky it was for Britain to invade the mainland.

As for Moscow, you might give it a little auto-deploy, and consider splitting the Kiev territory into two. Those would reflect the tremendous Russian population and the favorite Russian strategy of 'retreat further into Russia until they all die of cold'.

While you're at it you might as well simulate Napoleon's logistical superiority by letting Paris one-way assault certain territories like specific battles, French-allied capitals, or just external adjacent territories

Of course, it's possible that the present defenses are sufficient and I'm completely talking out my ass.
Last edited by Evil DIMwit on Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:08 pm

If you don't like the idea of making the water dark, maybe you would consider making it an off-white, so that it is lighter than the land. You would not need to change the text at all. And then maybe even darken the land ever so slightly. This would bring in the contrast that I am suggesting. ;)
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby AndrewB on Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:34 am

I have a question about naval bonuses.

How many armies will be 3 naval bonuses worth? How about 4 naval bonuses?
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Raskholnikov on Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:45 am

Hi Andrew,

Each Pair will be worth 1 bonus army. Hence, 2 Naval Battles are worth one extra army; 3 Naval Battles are also worth one extra army; 4 Naval Battles are worth 2 extra armies; 5 naval battles are worth 2 extra armies as well; 6 naval battles are worth 3 extra bonuses; and 7 naval battles are also worth 3 extra bonuses.

Thanks for all your help; I am glad you are part of the project!

If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Raskholnikov.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:27 am

Guys, Andrew will be joining us in this map focusing on the XML part, and of course, all extra and much needed guidance!

Evil, as I've told JefJef before I'll raise Moscow's neutral troops to 4 but I don't think London's should be raised above 3. Also not favourable on raising Russia terrs, it has already 11 regions, far more than any other country there. And that raise on Moscow will be a bit harder to get.

Porken, I'll try something there, though I'm quite satisfied with what we have right now :)
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:57 am

Version 23
-changed Moscow's neutral troops
-corrected some minor tweaks

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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby AndrewB on Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:38 am

Raskholnikov wrote:Hi Andrew,

Each Pair will be worth 1 bonus army. Hence, 2 Naval Battles are worth one extra army; 3 Naval Battles are also worth one extra army; 4 Naval Battles are worth 2 extra armies; 5 naval battles are worth 2 extra armies as well; 6 naval battles are worth 3 extra bonuses; and 7 naval battles are also worth 3 extra bonuses.

Thanks for all your help; I am glad you are part of the project!

If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Raskholnikov.


Thanks for the reply!

In this case I'd recommend changing the legend to say:

"1 army for every 2 territories"

Currently as it stands, it can be understood that for holding 3 naval sites one will get 3 unique pair combination within it, to give the bonus of 3...

And I still not sure about the idea to highlighting the islands. For example the Baleric Islands can be understood to be a separate territory... Maybe not highlight it at all?

PS. And I am really glad to be joining the team! :)
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Raskholnikov on Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:29 pm

Good idea with the legend wording.

As to the islands, they are not indicated as separate territories and have no army deployments..... I don't think they can be confused for separate territories... but that's just me... let's see what Kab thinks ;)
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Kabanellas on Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:43 pm

I'm with Rask here, having no armies placed there it won't be confusing.

as for the Naval battle sites.... doesn't '1 army for each pair' says it all?..... 2,4,6,8...
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Raskholnikov on Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:55 pm

I'm with Andrew on the pair issue... I can see how that can be confusing... It's a minor change and I think a better wording ;)
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby porkenbeans on Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:59 pm

Kabanellas wrote:Guys, Andrew will be joining us in this map focusing on the XML part, and of course, all extra and much needed guidance!

Evil, as I've told JefJef before I'll raise Moscow's neutral troops to 4 but I don't think London's should be raised above 3. Also not favourable on raising Russia terrs, it has already 11 regions, far more than any other country there. And that raise on Moscow will be a bit harder to get.

Porken, I'll try something there, though I'm quite satisfied with what we have right now :)
I am confused. You pm'd me, and thanked me for my help on your other maps, and asked me to take a look at this one. If you are already satisfied with it, ...why the request ? :?
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Raskholnikov on Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:52 pm

Evil wrote:
Moscow and London should both be difficult to take, more so than, say, Austria or Berlin. In London's case, I'd do it by isolating the UK further by making the battles around it start with 3 neutrals (maybe not so much St. Vincent since that's surrounded by neutral starts anyway). That would more accurately reflect British naval domination and just how hard it was to attack Britain by sea; it would also reflect just how tricky it was for Britain to invade the mainland.

As for Moscow, you might give it a little auto-deploy, and consider splitting the Kiev territory into two. Those would reflect the tremendous Russian population and the favorite Russian strategy of 'retreat further into Russia until they all die of cold'.

While you're at it you might as well simulate Napoleon's logistical superiority by letting Paris one-way assault certain territories like specific battles, French-allied capitals, or just external adjacent territories.


We increased Moscow to +4. Russia now has 12 territories, 1 more than the fully expanded French Empire. It also has the 4 winter territories. It is therefore already difficult for a player to consolidate the Russian empire (as is on the Europe 1914, map, where Russia has only 10 provinces, no winter effects and only 3 neutrals on Moscow). We did in fact have 13 terrritories for Russia, but we were worried that leaving it at that number might make it practically impossible for a player to conquer it and obtain a bonus for it. This being said, I'm all for leaving the option open to add one more territory, depending on feedback on balance and playability.

I had the same thoughts on Napoleon as you did and wanted to use rivers for this purpose (Rhine, Rhone, Garonne, Moselle) but the map would have become way to charged with details and, possibly, confusing. The way we have tried to simulate the Emperor's logistical superiority is by allowing France to get an initial bonus for its pre-Consulate boundaries, and having 5 battles and 4 empire territories within easy grasp, for additional bonuses of +8 (3 for 5 battles, 2 for Empire territories, 1 for Kingdom of Italy).

I know exactly what you mean to propose with Russia and France for historical purposes, but I fear the aggregate effect would be to make it evern more difficult still to unite Russia and much easier to build the Empire and defend it - all of which has the potential to unbalance the game.

In short, we did indeed increase Moscow starting neutrals to +4, we may add one more Russian province, and I would be willing to consider increasing all Naval Battles to +3 neutrals to shore up the UK's defences, and increasing France's empire bonuses from +1 for every two territories, to +1 for the first two, then +1 for each additional one (thus making two extra bonuses available to it for conquering the full Empire.

Let's see now what Kab, Andrew and Nobodies think....

Again, thank you very much for your suggestions.

Raskholnikov
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:03 pm

Heh, sure. Truth be told, I took a course last year that dealt with this and I'm just looking for an excuse to apply what I learned.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Raskholnikov on Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:15 pm

A course in what? Real life Strategy? Or game development?
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:39 pm

Strategy. One of the units was the Napoleonic Wars.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby jefjef on Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:25 am

Hi all!

2 tert bonuses (naval) seems awfully cheap to get at 2... I'd consider putting them at 3. They are the easiest bonuses on the map. Just too easy. Unless it's your intent to gravitate early & often combat for the Naval bonuses. 2 Just seems to light.

Maybe kick those Russian winter kill terts to 2. Atleast the flank ones.

With the tert sizes of Russia I would consider making it worth 6. A lot of resources to conquer all those terts & lots of border terts to defend almost makes them not worth the expenditure for region bonus.

Have you considered making Orient a stand alone bonus?

Bessarabia misprint shows worth I not a 1.

Maybe add 1 more tert to the France bonus. Split Normandie maybe. Almost worth too much as small as it is.

Is Cyprus and Crete going to be terts? Think I saw someone mention making them a neutral color. Good idea if your not gonna use em.

Caps bonus. I like the 4 in Moscow. It works well with the others.

Thanks for sharing your map idea! Look forward to it.

BTW. Where are the V1 & V2 missle sites? :D
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Raskholnikov on Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:01 am

Jefjef:

2 tert bonuses (naval) seems awfully cheap to get at 2... I'd consider putting them at 3. They are the easiest bonuses on the map. Just too easy. Unless it's your intent to gravitate early & often combat for the Naval bonuses. 2 Just seems to light.

Yes, I would agree to bump them to +3 if Kab agrees (as with all other changes you propose. We always decide together
;) )

Maybe kick those Russian winter kill terts to 2. Atleast the flank ones.

Yes, I agree with this too - but Kab might not, because it would make Russia and its 12 provinces (13 if we were to take provious advice) so much harder to conquer for any player and obtain its bonus.


With the tert sizes of Russia I would consider making it worth 6. A lot of resources to conquer all those terts & lots of border terts to defend almost makes them not worth the expenditure for region bonus.

Exactly. That is why we held it down to 12 provinces and only +1s for the winter regions. Please note Russia has 3 battle sites, within its borders, which would give it an added bonus of +2, and easy access to 2 more, which would give it 1 more bonus. This is why Kab and i did not bump it to +6; otherwise it would risk unbalancing the game.

Have you considered making Orient a stand alone bonus?

Yes. I would entirely agree if Kab would too.

Bessarabia misprint shows worth I not a 1.

Thanks we'll fix it.

Maybe add 1 more tert to the France bonus. Split Normandie maybe. Almost worth too much as small as it is.

France has 6 regions (Corsica included). We gave it a higher bonus to reflect Napoleon's logistical and strategic superiority, and allow it to become the Empire. Remember, France alone went from the professional army to the levee en masse and Grande Armee, which was then imitated by all other powers. But in the beginning he had a great manpower advantage and the bonuses should reflect that.

Is Cyprus and Crete going to be terts? Think I saw someone mention making them a neutral color. Good idea if your not gonna use em.

No they won't be separate, but are part of the Ottoman Empire. Since there are no army display circles or land connections going to them, I don't think that leaving them colored in brown will confuse anyone.

Caps bonus. I like the 4 in Moscow. It works well with the others.

Glad you agree.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. Let's see what Kab thinks ...
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby jefjef on Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:00 pm

I forgot about Corse being part of the France bonus. right on.

If you consider making Orient a stand alone bonus and it causes you to desire another tert for Ottoman Cyprus would be ideal.

Thank you. Lets play!
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:04 am

The Naval bonus do not worth 2 but only 1 for each pair.

As for Russia, the player owning it will make a 5 troop bonus for the zone + 2 troop for the battle site +1 for Moscow (autodeploy), having a total of 8 – the calculator is asking for 8. I could raise the zone to 6, but being the winter regions defended by 1, I think it compensates.

Oops I’ll correct Bessarabia :)

France, the calculator is asking for 6. We’re giving 5 +1 autodeployed... Think we’re good there. And after all France is Napoleon, it has to be a menace :)

Cyprus and Crete are part of the Ottoman Empire though for playability reasons they are only decorative and not playable. There will be no misunderstandings here for there will be no numbers/troops there.

Well we could make some giant ballistas sites aiming at London! :lol:
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:07 am

as for Orient,

... I'd rather not make it a stand alone bonus both for historical coherence and for playability reasons.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby AndrewB on Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:55 pm

Kabanellas wrote:The Naval bonus do not worth 2 but only 1 for each pair.

As for Russia, the player owning it will make a 5 troop bonus for the zone + 2 troop for the battle site +1 for Moscow (autodeploy), having a total of 8 – the calculator is asking for 8. I could raise the zone to 6, but being the winter regions defended by 1, I think it compensates.

Oops I’ll correct Bessarabia :)

France, the calculator is asking for 6. We’re giving 5 +1 autodeployed... Think we’re good there. And after all France is Napoleon, it has to be a menace :)

Cyprus and Crete are part of the Ottoman Empire though for playability reasons they are only decorative and not playable. There will be no misunderstandings here for there will be no numbers/troops there.

Well we could make some giant ballistas sites aiming at London! :lol:


I agree with Kabanellas on this one...
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Raskholnikov on Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:27 pm

That's fine then. Let's leave it as is.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby sam_levi_11 on Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:39 pm

Id swap the colours of britain and france, because the colours of Benelux and france are similar, as is Denmark and Britain.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:37 am

I've used the usual colours attributed to each country, either by uniform or by flag. That way - France is blue, England is red.
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Re: Napoleonic Europe 1812 (an original idea from Raskholnikov)

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:03 am

Small version done.... one of the hardest to do :x

Click image to enlarge.
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Colonel Kabanellas
Cartography Assistant
Cartography Assistant
 
Posts: 1475
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: "Don’t ever wrestle with a pig. You’ll both get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it."
Medals: 69
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (7)
General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (16) Map Contribution (7) General Contribution (2)

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