Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

[patrickaa317]

If collaborative discussions/decisions are not going to be updated in the OP, I think this should either be unstickied, moved to submitted or rejected suggestions as it stands. No point in further discussions if nothing is going to be changed in the suggestion.

[patrickaa317]

I see agentcom and I were on the same page there.

[Symmetry]

how about you start a new thread with reference to this one?
or at least propse your definitive ruling (more or less0 right now, and you can add it as an addendum to your OP post. (with stating that you took the quote from page 9)

I don't have a ruling- I'm not the boss of the thread. It's a suggestion, and it's up for discussion. I've modified my stance, and others have modified theirs. I'm not sure I'm the best person to say where we stand on this.

There seems to be general agreement that stripping of medals should be a punishment, for Premium or Freemium Cheaters of the points system.

I think we're now on to what should be excepted?

(See- this is why I didn't want to modify the OP- someone will object to my summary if I'm in charge).

In that case, this sounds more like General Discussion than a suggestion. Your suggestion as it is described in the OP is not much of a suggestion. If you do not feel like actually proposing a suggestion following all this discussion, then it's probably time to either archive this or move it over to General Discussion.

As a Suggestions Mod, I guess it's up to you if you feel that the suggestion has no merit. I think the main point of the OP seems to have pretty widespread support, and that there is a decent amount of nuance in the following discussion.

At the moment, the main point of criticism seems to be that I don't want to retcon the discussion. This seems to me to be an argument over the style of the thread, rather than the merits of the proposal.

[chapcrap]

Suggestions are updated in the OP as discussion changes them. If this was only intended to be about a discussion and the OP isn't changed, then move this to General Discussion or rejected.

Good grief.

[Symmetry]

Fine, I've done so, but the guidelines say it's only encouraged, and I think I've cut some people off. Hopefully I've left their lines of argument open. I don't want to see a lot of good discussion thrown away because of style issues.

[Symmetry]

Unsurprisingly, those complaining the most about formatting have yet to add anything now that I've acquiesced to their demands and altered the OP.

A more cynical man than myself might think that they never intended to contribute in the first place, but I hold out hope.

[SirSebstar]

i like the new suggestion better. less ambigious
ofcourse there are still the practicalities like, well how to implement removal of medals. do you remove the games, a handmade count added to your medal count or something?
labor intensive. A point reset would suit more, however, that will not be implemented since that kills off a closed system(more or less) like cc.
overall, i fail to see how this will prevent people from cheating, how this helps in any way shape or form, except as a public form of humiliation and a shitload of work for admin.
And lets face it, its usually not worth the time and effort (to strip them) since most busted accounts never get used again.
i am not opposed the the idea per se, just this particular suggestion. if admin sees the time to implement it, go for it., just do everything else first

[Symmetry]

i like the new suggestion better. less ambigious
ofcourse there are still the practicalities like, well how to implement removal of medals. do you remove the games, a handmade count added to your medal count or something?
labor intensive. A point reset would suit more, however, that will not be implemented since that kills off a closed system(more or less) like cc.
overall, i fail to see how this will prevent people from cheating, how this helps in any way shape or form, except as a public form of humiliation and a shitload of work for admin.
And lets face it, its usually not worth the time and effort (to strip them) since most busted accounts never get used again.
i am not opposed the the idea per se, just this particular suggestion. if admin sees the time to implement it, go for it., just do everything else first

Personally, I'd say just strip the medals. I never intended for it to be anything more than that. Simply let them earn them back fair and square. Points resets and removing games seem, as you point out, complicated.

If there are medals that should be exempted, I'm happy to talk about them. Possibly tournament medals. As is, I don't think it would be tough to reset a counter on most medals.

Yeah, this is a less harsh punishment than some might like, but that's sort of why I suggested it. It may not be the harshest solution, but it is pretty fair and allows people who have cheated to redeem themselves. Plus it's kind of in line with the idea of awarding "medals" in the first place.

[jghost7]

Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The generalSymmetry's opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

I do not think that this is a good idea. You would strip all medals for what? Why? Which ones then? Only for multis? or Only multis found guilty of illegal point collecting? Where does it end?

Thanks,

J

[Symmetry]

Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The generalSymmetry's opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

I do not think that this is a good idea. You would strip all medals for what? Why? Which ones then? Only for multis? or Only multis found guilty of illegal point collecting? Where does it end?

Thanks,

J

Well, as I put in the OP that you asked me to change, I said that the medals were up for debate, and encouraged contributions as to which kinds of cheaters should be punished.

I think I've contributed, and suggested that tournament medals be kept, although you claim, a bit unfairly, that I'm asking for all medals to be stripped.

Is it really so much to ask that you contribute to the discussion? The OP is updated after all.

[jghost7]

Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The generalSymmetry's opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

I do not think that this is a good idea. You would strip all medals for what? Why? Which ones then? Only for multis? or Only multis found guilty of illegal point collecting? Where does it end?

Thanks,

J

Well, as I put in the OP that you asked me to change, I said that the medals were up for debate, and encouraged contributions as to which kinds of cheaters should be punished. ...

I asked that you update the suggestion as it evolves with the discussion. You have made a start for which I commend you. I still don't believe you have included some things but that is neither here nor there. Unfortunately, I just don't happen to agree that your suggestion will improve the site, and so will have to be on the opposing side of this debate.

I think I've contributed, and suggested that tournament medals be kept, although you claim, a bit unfairly, that I'm asking for all medals to be stripped. ...

Personally, I'd say just strip the medals.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped...

It does seem to lean that way though. Even if it is not all medals, you suggest a significant portion be stripped. For what? What does this achieve? How does this make the site better? As far as I can see, it doesn't.
On a side note, it can seem unfair as the number of medals affected would be potentially different from player to player.

Is it really so much to ask that you contribute to the discussion? The OP is updated after all.

No. Ask away. Then go back and read some of my earlier posts. I may add more later. Just because you wish to ignore what you don't want to hear, doesn't mean it wasn't said.

Thanks,

J

[Symmetry]

JG, you're just trolling now. I edited the OP, as was your supposed condition for posting contributions. What do you want to get you to contribute?

[agentcom]

JG, you're just trolling now. I edited the OP, as was your supposed condition for posting contributions. What do you want to get you to contribute?

Symmetry, you need to realize that to most (dare I say?) people in this forum, "contributing" does not mean simply agreeing with an idea. There is plenty of room for disagreement. In this forum, it's nice when people even come by to post there "+1" or "do not do this" posts. At least they've taken the time to lend support or show distaste for a suggestion. Most people in this thread (which I've been following and contributing to since before I was a mod) have done more than this and actually contributed.

It's great that you've stuck around as a steward for your suggestion. There are a lot of OP's that don't do this. But, generally speaking, if an OP wants the site to be more attentive and responsive to the desires of its users vis a vis the OP, then I don't think it's too much to ask the OP to be more attentive and responsive to the desires of its commentators.

You are right, above, when you say "the guidelines say it's only encouraged" to amend the OP. But it is encouraged to facilitate the submission and implementation of a suggestion. If you think that the OP stands on its own, then it may also fail on its own. I do not see the OP (even the recently edited OP) as a strong candidate for Submission. It either lacks detail in what medals would be subject to rescission, or it lacks guidelines for such rescission, or it is overbroad in the medals that are subject to rescission. I am not sure which because although I think the amended suggestion is better, I still think it's vague.

Here is the OP right now:

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

My main question is: What medals are "regarding standard gameplay"?

-----------------

Now, for the positive part. Thank you for clarifying that this suggestion is only involving multis. And also thank you for being an active steward of your suggestion. The latter is especially appreciated (at least by me).

[Symmetry]

JG, you're just trolling now. I edited the OP, as was your supposed condition for posting contributions. What do you want to get you to contribute?

Symmetry, you need to realize that to most (dare I say?) people in this forum, "contributing" does not mean simply agreeing with an idea. There is plenty of room for disagreement. In this forum, it's nice when people even come by to post there "+1" or "do not do this" posts. At least they've taken the time to lend support or show distaste for a suggestion. Most people in this thread (which I've been following and contributing to since before I was a mod) have done more than this and actually contributed.

It's great that you've stuck around as a steward for your suggestion. There are a lot of OP's that don't do this. But, generally speaking, if an OP wants the site to be more attentive and responsive to the desires of its users vis a vis the OP, then I don't think it's too much to ask the OP to be more attentive and responsive to the desires of its commentators.

You are right, above, when you say "the guidelines say it's only encouraged" to amend the OP. But it is encouraged to facilitate the submission and implementation of a suggestion. If you think that the OP stands on its own, then it may also fail on its own. I do not see the OP (even the recently edited OP) as a strong candidate for Submission. It either lacks detail in what medals would be subject to rescission, or it lacks guidelines for such rescission, or it is overbroad in the medals that are subject to rescission. I am not sure which because although I think the amended suggestion is better, I still think it's vague.

Here is the OP right now:

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

My main question is: What medals are "regarding standard gameplay"?

-----------------

Now, for the positive part. Thank you for clarifying that this suggestion is only involving multis. And also thank you for being an active steward of your suggestion. The latter is especially appreciated (at least by me).

I would suggest those medals listed under game achievements on the medal page as being the most relevant.

Medals Page

Though I could possibly see an argument for some of them to be excluded. Tourny medals I would generally say would depend on circumstance. I'm more ambivalent about them, although if cheating occurred within the tournament, or was used to gain entry to a tournament, I'd say they should be stripped.

Some of the other medals- say for creating a map, are unrelated to cheating and should be kept.

[Symmetry]

Ok, I've left this suggestion alone for a fair while, and it's fairly clear that it reached a consensus prior to the demands for a change in OP by a few posters, who of course, didn't respond once the OP was changed as per their requests.

What's next?

I hope this doesn't get dismissed because of a technical argument on the last few pages after a general agreement on the preceding ones.