Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby Renee_W on Mon May 21, 2012 11:34 am

nietzsche wrote:Same number of troops for deployment in round 1
[*]If at the start both have 15 territories, both get 5 armies to deploy in the first turn (plus bonuses).[/list]


Those lines contradict. It would take a lot of luck or some code to balance initial places to give everyone the same troops and give bonuses the first turn.
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby DiM on Mon May 21, 2012 3:29 pm

nietzsche wrote:Same number of troops for deployment in round 1


Specifics/Details:
  • No matter how many of your territories were taken in the first turn, you will get the same amount of armies to deploy
  • If at the start both have 15 territories, both get 5 armies to deploy in the first turn (plus bonuses).

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • More fair



there are already several maps that do this. but the xml is impossible to code for all maps to do it.
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby squishyg on Mon May 21, 2012 3:53 pm

i get the point of your suggestion and its certainly valid. lord knows i've cursed the drop gods many times. buuuut..... this is a game of luck, risk, and skill. if just want a pure skill based game, play chess.
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby Army of GOD on Mon May 21, 2012 6:23 pm

I think this suggestions exist...I certainly remember it being suggested before.

This should be implemented right now, but of course it'll be a few generations until it gets on the website.
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby agentcom on Wed May 23, 2012 2:33 pm

I've never been too much in favor of the various ways that have been proposed to even out the first turn. This one is unique (if it's been suggested before, I've not seen it), but I don't know that it's necessary. If you make the first turn too "even" all you do is make the second turn the important one. You've just added an element before the turn where "first turn advantage" starts. So, I'm either indifferent to this idea or against it ... or maybe slightly for it, I don't know. I guess I should stick with indifferent.
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby betiko on Thu May 24, 2012 2:28 pm

agentcom wrote:I've never been too much in favor of the various ways that have been proposed to even out the first turn. This one is unique (if it's been suggested before, I've not seen it), but I don't know that it's necessary. If you make the first turn too "even" all you do is make the second turn the important one. You've just added an element before the turn where "first turn advantage" starts. So, I'm either indifferent to this idea or against it ... or maybe slightly for it, I don't know. I guess I should stick with indifferent.


I don't agree, i think that deploying the same troops on the first turn doesn't make the second turn like a first turn. i do think it evens up the starting position. mostly lt's say.. in manual games.
I had suggested before to code maps in order not to start with 12, 15, 18 and so on but with 11, 14, 17. In those type of maps starting first makes it a too big advantage.
Take classic! 14 starting territories! not only people know the map, it's one of the best ballanced for 1vs1.
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby agentcom on Fri May 25, 2012 10:09 am

Yes, there are a lot of maps that do a good job of balancing out 1 v 1. Even (amazingly!) Classic is all right. There are awful maps (Pac Man, City Mogul), too. But I don't think the solution lies in balancing out the first 2 drops.

But that's just a hunch ... I wish there were a sandbox section of this website where we could play around with these ideas. I'd play a few games. And the true test would be to figure out what percent of 1 v 1 games are won by first player now (Has anyone done this?) v. what percent under your system. I would love to see a system that gets that closer to 50%. I just don't know what that system is.

Crap, I always do this to myself (and other people's suggestions): I just thought of a new suggestion if anybody wants to post one. Or it could be added to the "MapBoard" suggestions. The above info would be really useful if it was broken down by map. I would love to see those stats. These stats could also benefit TOs trying to make balanced 1 v 1 tournies (although "balance" as used here isn't always the goal. And that's fine. See the KISS series.)
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby DiM on Fri May 25, 2012 5:05 pm

agentcom wrote:But that's just a hunch ... I wish there were a sandbox section of this website where we could play around with these ideas.



a sandbox already exists but except for a handful of people nobody has access. it would be great if mapmakers could use it but despite asking about it we never got the approval :(


another solution that's easy to implement is to allow each mapmaker to specialize his map for certain settings and restrict the map to those settings only.


for example city mogul is great and fair if it is played freestyle so i'd like to restrict it only to this setting.
or most of my other maps that are better with fog than sunny.
other maps might be awesome only for 6 players escalating or only with no spoils.
plus knowing you can restrict things you can go ahead and make new maps even better. for example a quads only map would be awesome and you don't have to worry about balancing it for other settings (1v1, terminator, etc), just make it as best as possible for quads.
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby rousseau72 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:15 am

OK here is an update that perhaps we can all agree on. Make this AN OPTION. Players choose just like for/no fog.

Here are three start options
1) As is standard Conquest Club
2) This option here - I like it but agree that the coding could be weird or complex
3) (My personal favorite) No Bonus drop on first round. Its very easy to explain and takes out a situation which I abhor either getting or seeing my opponent get.
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby chapcrap on Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:54 am

I think that rousseau stated it well.

I wouldn't see a problem with this except for the fact that I think the real issue lies in the map itself, not the coding of the gameplay. If maps are properly made, then bonuses shouldn't be dropped except for on rare occasions. Perhaps what really needs done is for maps that are messed up to be fixed.
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First turn equal deployment

Postby reptile on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:02 pm

There is not really a lot to this suggestion so i will just post it. In many games (especially bigger maps OR fewer players on maps) there is a definite advantage to going first (and i am not talking about the courtesy fog rule). I am also not talking about someone dropping a bonus as this is due to the luck of the drop. However lets pretend that the players each start at 15 regions. Whoever goes first gets an initial deploy of 5 where as once he attacks player B, then player B will only get to start with 4. This is an obvious advantage that normally leads to an almost automatic victory when they take a territory lead and next to impossible for it to be turned around as the territory count gets more and more out of hand.

My proposal is a "house rule" that i play with in real life and it works. Whoever goes first (other than any held bonuses) sets the deploy for every other player in the game for their first turn. Meaning even if Player B is below the 15 regions he started with, then for the first turn only he will still get the 5 deploy as player A did.

This keeps things more fair for a turn at least, and keeps player B both in the game and interested in completing the game especially if Player A ends up somehow killing off 4 regions on his turn (there is no way to come back if you are Player B and player A has 19 regions before your first turn when you have 11).

If you really think about it, this would be a great rule to incorporate in every game style on Conquer Club, and i dont see any real reason to oppose it. It works and most if not all should support it.
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby darth emperor on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:20 pm

And what would happen in Player A starts with a bonus and B no? Or on the other way around? If B has a bonus that A wasn't able to break?
Would they get equal deployment in both cases? If yes, which quantity? the ones B was going to have or A?
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby Lord_Bremen on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:44 pm

You could just make first turn income 3+bonus (e.g. everyone is assumed to have minimum territories).
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby reptile on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:54 pm

darth emperor wrote:And what would happen in Player A starts with a bonus and B no? Or on the other way around? If B has a bonus that A wasn't able to break?
Would they get equal deployment in both cases? If yes, which quantity? the ones B was going to have or A?


The bonuses would play as normal, as that is more of the luck of the draw. I am only trying to fix the territory drops equal. So if player A or player B dropped a bonus then that player would start off with a greater deployment.

If player A dropped a 3 bonus in addition to 15 starting territories. Then player A would get to start with (3+5=8) an 8 deployment. Under normal circumstances if player A took 1-3 regions from player B, then Player B would start with a 4 deployment (if he took 4 regions with the 8 deployment it would be a 3 deployment), However with the incorporation of this it would still be a 5 deployment for player B.

Short answer the bonuses other than region count still play as normal. Just the region count is the same. In a 4 player game if everyone started with 12 regions, then the last person to play would still get a drop of 4 like everyone else no matter who attacked who up to his turn.

Lord_Bremen wrote:You could just make first turn income 3+bonus (e.g. everyone is assumed to have minimum territories).
Yes that is along the same lines of what i am proposing, and in the smaller maps or more player case would be the same as what i am proposing. However with larger maps or conquest maps, it would probably not be as effective if everyone starts with 3 rather than 8 or whatever the map calls for (hive for example).
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:26 pm

Already been suggested, in the following threads:

viewtopic.php?f=471&t=123130

viewtopic.php?f=471&t=113837
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby alvinchek99 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Whats the point of changing the house rule (troops receive) when the dice is the one that decides the outcome of games?

The dice (luck) should not decide any player abilities the play the game, be it good or poor. If one is good..he wins, he is a noob ..he loses.

If cc need to have an element of luck...make it 30% maximum (since 3 dices vs 2 dices), for every attack and defend..separately. Meaning...there is no "brought forward" good dice nor bad dice. Every turns count as it own. For example...100 vs 100 ..the most troops that will survive for the winner is 30 (max), and after that turn...there is no "brought forward" bad dice nor good dice for either player. (which happened and happening to many players, including me, over and over again)

With that...player will not be "piss" by the dice, and eventually there will not be anymore "major" problem.
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby reptile on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:42 am

what i am suggesting really has nothing to do with the dice ... alvin
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby reptile on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:43 am

this needs to happen, i have done this at my house and it works great!!!
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby alvinchek99 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:03 am

What i suggested..if fulfilled, then ur suggestion will not be valid. :D
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby waltero on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:11 pm

The fact that CC allows the "first turn advantage '' Would suggest to me that they did not put a whole lot of thought into this matter.
Why they would allow this to be, is beyond me.
Anything would be better!

I would not expect anything to Change.
Best suggestion is not to play two player game on boards like this.

If you play one game as the second player...not much of a chance you will ever play again.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby agentcom on Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:43 pm

MERGED topics that metsfanmax found. They all look the same to me. Reptile's post does deal with the situation of bonuses.

Not sure how I feel about this one. I wonder if it would really equalize the game much. Let's say two players start with 15 regions. Player 2 has a certain percentage chance of being dropped to 14 regions by the start of his first turn. I don't know how much (if any) you decrease that chance under the new system by the start of the second turn. Seems like it would just delay that first turn advantage.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:07 pm

I don't think it would make a huge difference, but it would be an incremental improvement.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Vid_FISO on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:20 pm

Not followed the links but wouldn't an alternative idea be that no map is set to exactly 12/15/18/21/ etc. starting terits giving the advantage of fitst to go only needing to take one terit to cut the 2nd player's deploy? Start numbers of 14/17/20 require 3 terits to be taken to cut the deploy.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby spiesr on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:35 pm

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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby skychaser on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:03 pm

While i would never play 1x1, 2x2 or 3x3. This seems to be a good idea.


However, I would not play these kind of games cause I'm not a luck/bruteforce kind of player and I value control over the madness of these luck based and no strategy games.


I think the 1x1 is a game of madness and not a game of fairness, isn't it that people join these games are searching only for this kind of madness?

If people join these games in search of fairness then it's a good idea. But if the people join these games while in search for madness then it would be a loss.

But it can be easily decided by voting I guess.
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