Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby Soloman on Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:33 pm

detlef wrote:
Soloman wrote:
detlef wrote:All players should be given the amount of troops they would have gotten had they gone first in the first round of the game :

Specifics:
    For instance, in a 1v1 game on Africa, each player is dropped 15 countries but only one player is assured of being able to take advantage of this. Given the number of ways it's been shown that going first is an advantage in 1v1, this will mitigate at least one of those issues.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
    Well, obviously, it will make games more fair by eliminating one of the advantages the first player gets in a 1v1 game.

    As it stands, the deployment can set off a chain reaction. Player one gets, say 5 armies and can not only quite feasibly take 2 countries from player 2, but also fortify against an advance. Now player 2 needs to take 3 countries, starting with a smaller number of troops and likely having at least one well defended front in their way. This can create a pattern that will require some outstanding luck or a big mistake on the part of the first player to overcome.

    Keep in mind, even if this change was made, player 2 may still be fighting an uphill battle. They still need to take 3 countries to establish an early game equilibrium where both players are, say starting their turn with 14 and finishing with 15+.
to be honest this is a crap Idea.the game we all know and love which originated as a sequential game never would have allowed for this your armies are based on territories owned if you have the good luck to start with a bonus great game for you I have seen games go either way with that even in 2 player games. When playing the board game we did random drop based on cards to keep all fair o a lot of games and sometime by luck of draw you started with a bonus and it made the game that much more challenging. Just like the dice there is a random factor involved with the drop that should not be perverted by this type of change.Just my Opinion ,I would rather lose by that randomness then win because everything was kept in a balanced order on what should have been a random drop...

I mean this with all due respect. Based on your response, I don't think you understand the rule being suggested and I also think you need to embrace some of the elements used in the English language to prevent unreadable blocks of words.

The rule as it is being suggested, and as you have quoted has nothing to do with luck of the drop. There have been suggestions regarding not awarding bonuses but that is not part of the original idea which only pertains to the luck involved in going 1st. As it stands, there is far too much to be gained by simply going first.

I do most humbly suggest that you, 1) understand the issue at hand and 2) manage to produce readable text when you launch your post with, "this is a crap idea".
Logic Dictates if you were able to respond then you could read it. Your only defense is the lack of punctuation used in my original post and not a actual rebuttal involving the realities of the game. It was a crap idea and I pointed that out nothing personal, I call a turd a turd.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby Soloman on Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:44 pm

FabledIntegral wrote:Soloman, you're basically arguing that the original designers of the game had it perfect.

Fact is, there's a huge difference when you're playing with friends and when you're playing vs other random people. When you're playing with other random people, the atmosphere is a lot less friendly, despite what is said in chat. You want to win. Getting paired up against someone random and having that sort of drop is ridiculous. This game should NOT revolve around "make it that much more challenging for this person," and "because you were randomly generated to go first you get that much more of an advantage." All I've seen you argue is that whoever goes first *deserves* this advantage, simply because it's random.

That detracts from the integrity of the game, in my opinion. This is a strategy game. That's how it should be viewed. There are massive flaws in the original RISK board game - it is anything but perfect. Yeah, it still provided a fun game, but to simply think that a board game in itself was perfected by a few designers is absolute crap.


OK let me get this straight you want to take away the randomness of the game right? SO that it is more fair and balanced for all not just who goes 1st? Lets Do away with the dice then also they are not fair and balanced. We should also balance all board so everyone gets the exact same amount of territory and all is worth the same . In fact we should not allow anyone to win all games should be imaginary stalemates that way noone loses and all is fair and balanced.

All I get from your argument is random is bad and thus should not be a factor in the game because you might lose because you randomly went 2nd and the person randomly had good roles and they randomly had a good army drop. The random factors of this game lend credence to the real life strategy employed if you want a game solely reliant on strategy and not random factors play chess or from the sound of your argument checkers...
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby ctgottapee on Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:38 am

unfortunatley it seems any recomendation for change is met by the hostility of elders who just can't seem to accept any change at all, like the current way is somehow a religous order and any change is blasphemous. so instead of thoughtful discussion of merrits, name calling and over-exagerations are used....

i personally don't believe there is anything wrong with making improvements; improvements that increase fair competition. it is also true that stark advantages can be enjoyable to overcome, whereas that are often just an annoyance though.

the suggested improvement stills alows any player to keep their respective fortunate drop, but doesn't allow them to collect on that drop for a round, basically giving them an opportunity to earn and defend that drop. players who are not so fortunate will not have to be quadruple penalized for a unfortunate drop, no bonus, fortunate drop for others, bonus for others.

the point being made is not as much about the inadequacy of the random drop, but the inadequacy factored in with turn order. it is fairly obvious it exists, so why not make an improvement to lower the leverage and require any player getting the advantage to earn the right to keep it while giving the other players opporunity to play first and factor that in their moves. yes we will still give you your machine gun, but we'll let the other players know about it before you get your bullets.
OR we can just setlle on the un-wise wisdom of doing it the same way because that is the way it has always been done and tack on a few more names and exagerations to boot.

another idea would be to make such feature an option.

and dice are far from random....
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby FabledIntegral on Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:26 pm

Soloman wrote:
FabledIntegral wrote:Soloman, you're basically arguing that the original designers of the game had it perfect.

Fact is, there's a huge difference when you're playing with friends and when you're playing vs other random people. When you're playing with other random people, the atmosphere is a lot less friendly, despite what is said in chat. You want to win. Getting paired up against someone random and having that sort of drop is ridiculous. This game should NOT revolve around "make it that much more challenging for this person," and "because you were randomly generated to go first you get that much more of an advantage." All I've seen you argue is that whoever goes first *deserves* this advantage, simply because it's random.

That detracts from the integrity of the game, in my opinion. This is a strategy game. That's how it should be viewed. There are massive flaws in the original RISK board game - it is anything but perfect. Yeah, it still provided a fun game, but to simply think that a board game in itself was perfected by a few designers is absolute crap.


OK let me get this straight you want to take away the randomness of the game right? SO that it is more fair and balanced for all not just who goes 1st? Lets Do away with the dice then also they are not fair and balanced. We should also balance all board so everyone gets the exact same amount of territory and all is worth the same . In fact we should not allow anyone to win all games should be imaginary stalemates that way noone loses and all is fair and balanced.

All I get from your argument is random is bad and thus should not be a factor in the game because you might lose because you randomly went 2nd and the person randomly had good roles and they randomly had a good army drop. The random factors of this game lend credence to the real life strategy employed if you want a game solely reliant on strategy and not random factors play chess or from the sound of your argument checkers...


No - I'm saying that when teh game STARTS it should be as balanced as possible. Everyone on teh board DOES get the same amount of territories - so that point is worthless. Your situation of "imaginary stalemates" is nothing more than you advocating that someone should make a strategically stupid move - nothing more. You know what situation people are referring to, and you are being nothing more than technical on the meaning of "stalemate," which you are wrong by DEFINITION. When the game reaches a point when it is NOT beneficial to attack, thus no progress can be made, the dictionary definition refers to it as a stalemate. Simply because SOME of the definitions refer to something else does not mean that is the definition being used.
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby gdeangel on Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:03 pm

ctgottapee wrote:yeah i have been surprised that bonuses are given out in the first round.....

over on the defunct GS, each player in the first round only got 3 armies no matter what they owned or their territory count, so no player got an advantage in the first round. it also seemed to help even out any odd automated deployments as bonus laden players were targeted before they could accure them in the later rounds.


This is due to bad map making - map makers who don't care about 1v1 games in particular. There is a way they can force some territories to be divided to opposing players, or force a 1 territory bonus continent to start neutral (which I don't advocate... as long as it only carries a sensible bonus). But few maps apparently do it.

I'm mixed about this suggestion. The dice are far more important that 1 or 2 extra armies early in the game. Later in the game, as you compound those extra 1-2 armies behind a stable front, it will of course carry the game. I would much rather see a rule where if you have a continent bonus at the start, or a strong position vis a vie fronts protected by neutrals or continuous columns of fortification, you start second. Because sometimes the drop so much favors one person, that getting in a first move to cut someone from 12 to 11 (i.e., +4 to +3) is the only way to have a competitive game. Understanding that on larger maps, like Actium or 2.1, where you have the ability to knock off way more than 1-2 of your opponents starting bonus if you get the first draw, it is more important. But in reality, I or any reasonably astute player can probably look at a map and within 10-20 seconds tell you who has the better drop and in those games, who "should", in a "fair" match, have the first move.

Is it possible to have some type of analyzer that can do this automatically? Probably not, but it might be possible...??
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby Soloman on Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:16 pm

gdeangel wrote:
ctgottapee wrote:yeah i have been surprised that bonuses are given out in the first round.....

over on the defunct GS, each player in the first round only got 3 armies no matter what they owned or their territory count, so no player got an advantage in the first round. it also seemed to help even out any odd automated deployments as bonus laden players were targeted before they could accure them in the later rounds.


This is due to bad map making - map makers who don't care about 1v1 games in particular. There is a way they can force some territories to be divided to opposing players, or force a 1 territory bonus continent to start neutral (which I don't advocate... as long as it only carries a sensible bonus). But few maps apparently do it.

I'm mixed about this suggestion. The dice are far more important that 1 or 2 extra armies early in the game. Later in the game, as you compound those extra 1-2 armies behind a stable front, it will of course carry the game. I would much rather see a rule where if you have a continent bonus at the start, or a strong position vis a vie fronts protected by neutrals or continuous columns of fortification, you start second. Because sometimes the drop so much favors one person, that getting in a first move to cut someone from 12 to 11 (i.e., +4 to +3) is the only way to have a competitive game. Understanding that on larger maps, like Actium or 2.1, where you have the ability to knock off way more than 1-2 of your opponents starting bonus if you get the first draw, it is more important. But in reality, I or any reasonably astute player can probably look at a map and within 10-20 seconds tell you who has the better drop and in those games, who "should", in a "fair" match, have the first move.

Is it possible to have some type of analyzer that can do this automatically? Probably not, but it might be possible...??


I agree about the dice but in defense of the mapmakers it has nothing to to do with them.The armies are dropped at random , given that everyone knows this no one should be upset or surprised that sometimes someone get a whole bonus from the beginning...
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Re: Assured armies on first turn of games

Postby lancehoch on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:01 pm

I like this suggestion so long as it is only applied to the territory count deployment and not a continent bonus deployment.
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Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby groblerg on Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:39 pm

Concise description:
  • Where a new game is initiated and each player starts with more then 11 regions
  • Each player will receive for their first turn (and first turn only), the original troop allocation, even if they lost some regions before they got to play their first turn.

Specifics:
  • At the moment, if a game starts and for example, each player has 16 regions, then each gets 5 troops. However, the players who get the first moves (be it a 2 player game or even an 8 player game) can (and will) attack other players, as part of their strategy - which will cause other players to have less regions and therefore a smaller initial troop allocation then the players who got to play first. This is unfair, as the players who get to move last - get less troops, not because they played bad, but simply because they are not first to play.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
  • The game will start off from a much fair position for all players, as even if a player is last to take their turn in a game, they will still get the same initial troop number they would have received if they we're the first to take their turn in the game.
  • Please note, this is ONLY for the first turn and not for any turn after that... or in other words - Once the game kicks off and all players have had their fair share of troops - their on their own.

I realize that as games start a player is selected in random to take the first turn and I assume that it's randomised so that every player get's his share of being first/last/in the middle in equal measure with other players. However, I still think the above can be applied - it will only make it even fairer.
Last edited by groblerg on Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:36 am

This will not make game play any fairer. The whole idea of the random selection of turn order is that no one has a fairer chance than any others. By allowing people to obtain troops for territories they do not own, then the troops used by the other players who conquered those territories were effectively wasted. Consider a map where each player starts with a large number of territories. The player who goes first may attack a lot of his opponent's territories on the first turn so that the second player has a much more difficult time. By giving the second player the same number of troops, he now has the advantage actually, because he now only has to attack territories with 1 army each on them.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby AAFitz on Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:07 am

It really would cause more problems than its worth

the best way to adjust first player advantage is to only count bonuses after first round, or give initial deploy of 3 no matter what on turn one, but the latter is really no different than getting full amount, so just eliminating bonuses, and allowing one turn to try to break them could make some games more playable
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Halmir on Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:19 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:This will not make game play any fairer. The whole idea of the random selection of turn order is that no one has a fairer chance than any others. By allowing people to obtain troops for territories they do not own, then the troops used by the other players who conquered those territories were effectively wasted. Consider a map where each player starts with a large number of territories. The player who goes first may attack a lot of his opponent's territories on the first turn so that the second player has a much more difficult time. By giving the second player the same number of troops, he now has the advantage actually, because he now only has to attack territories with 1 army each on them.


What tosh, of course it's fairer. Probly 1 in 5 (if not more) of the 2 player games I play are decided by a combination of who goes first and the drop; most of the time it's who goes first I think. Those who would oppose this delight in trying to hit their opponent first.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby jrh_cardinal on Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:27 pm

Halmir wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:This will not make game play any fairer. The whole idea of the random selection of turn order is that no one has a fairer chance than any others. By allowing people to obtain troops for territories they do not own, then the troops used by the other players who conquered those territories were effectively wasted. Consider a map where each player starts with a large number of territories. The player who goes first may attack a lot of his opponent's territories on the first turn so that the second player has a much more difficult time. By giving the second player the same number of troops, he now has the advantage actually, because he now only has to attack territories with 1 army each on them.


What tosh, of course it's fairer. Probly 1 in 5 (if not more) of the 2 player games I play are decided by a combination of who goes first and the drop; most of the time it's who goes first I think. Those who would oppose this delight in trying to hit their opponent first.

this would not make it fairer. Your games are obviously on smaller maps, where both people only get 3 troops whether they go first or second, so this wouldn't make a difference (this rule change doesn't cover people dropping continents, so I'm not talking about that either). On bigger maps, if the second person got just as many troops, they would win every time because they could just run right through all of the first persons 1's
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First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby gho on Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:52 am

Concise description:
On the first turn the troops everybody should receive should be calculated when the game is intialised

Specifics/Details:
On larger maps where the bonus is larger than the normal 3, if you go last the troops you receive can be significantly different to what the first player receives, especially when the game settings is manual troop deployment, leaving you chasing the game from behind. I don't think the turn you take should have significance on how you have to play the game. The first player already gets the advantage when it comes to trading cards, they shouldn't also get this advantage.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
The game results will be fairer for all and will stop people from avoiding manual games.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:56 am

Not a bad idea, especially for those maps where players start w/ 12 or 15 territories in 1v1 games.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby edwinissweet on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:53 pm

This would create problems when a person starts with a bonus and the other person goes first. Even if he breaks it, it would be useless
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:03 pm

edwinissweet wrote:This would create problems when a person starts with a bonus and the other person goes first. Even if he breaks it, it would be useless


I knew there was something I was overlooking. I think I posted a suggestion once to eliminate first-turn bonuses, but it was blown off. Oh well.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:36 pm

edwinissweet wrote:This would create problems when a person starts with a bonus and the other person goes first. Even if he breaks it, it would be useless


This seems to me like further justification FOR this idea. First-turn bonuses are an abomination (ok, that's overstating, but you get the idea) to fairness in the game. I think this is a great suggestion and, as someone earlier mentioned, particularly on those maps where starting armies are evenly divisible by three.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:15 am

Woodruff wrote:First-turn bonuses are an abomination (ok, that's overstating, but you get the idea) to fairness in the game.


When I suggested a method to eliminate first-turn bonuses, I was told that they were "part of the game", and eliminating them would be equivalent to eliminating the dice. I wish I was making this up.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby TheForgivenOne on Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:53 am

The drop is as random as the dice. So i think that's why eliminating the randomness of the drop is like eliminating the randomness of the dice. Plus some known mapmakers have said that they don't want to rewrite their XML on certain maps. From what I remember, cairns did not want to redo Madness! because of the +1 the Dog house gives. Some people wanted to make the Dog House neutral.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:02 pm

One dice roll doesn't have as great an effect on the game as dropping a bonus. You're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they're both random. So is who goes first in an 8-player game. That doesn't mean they all have the same effect. My suggestion didn't require an XML change to the maps. If someone drops a +1, you can recover. +2 is tougher. +3 and up is near impossible.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:19 pm

It's true that there are significant advantages to starting with a bonus, but that's inherent in the luck-based nature of the game. You take away a significant part of the game if you take away that luck.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby TheForgivenOne on Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:59 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:One dice roll doesn't have as great an effect on the game as dropping a bonus. You're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they're both random. So is who goes first in an 8-player game. That doesn't mean they all have the same effect. My suggestion didn't require an XML change to the maps. If someone drops a +1, you can recover. +2 is tougher. +3 and up is near impossible.


Really? Dice rolls don't change the game that much? Then i wonder why so many people want to punch a hole in their screen when they see a string of terrible dice.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Woodruff on Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:16 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:The drop is as random as the dice. So i think that's why eliminating the randomness of the drop is like eliminating the randomness of the dice.


See, I'm ok with leaving the random drop as it is, even as that means some folks will drop a "bonus area". It just seems to me that the player shouldn't actually get that bonus until the 2nd turn, so that the other player has at least had SOME opportunity to break it.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:06 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
drunkmonkey wrote:One dice roll doesn't have as great an effect on the game as dropping a bonus. You're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they're both random. So is who goes first in an 8-player game. That doesn't mean they all have the same effect. My suggestion didn't require an XML change to the maps. If someone drops a +1, you can recover. +2 is tougher. +3 and up is near impossible.


Really? Dice rolls don't change the game that much? Then i wonder why so many people want to punch a hole in their screen when they see a string of terrible dice.


Yes - dice don't change the game. That's exactly what I said.

Never mind. I give up.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Queen_Herpes on Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:03 am

I see both sides here. It certainly is frustrating to drop a bonus or drop 15 armies and then end up with fewer troops when your turn begins and come to find my opponent now has a bonus. I could go either way here, but I lean towards giving every player the same number of starting troops...of course, that is what happens in freestyle...but if that timer thing goes through with freestyle where the game doesn't start for 30 seconds or something....
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