Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

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First turn equal deployment

Postby reptile on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:02 pm

There is not really a lot to this suggestion so i will just post it. In many games (especially bigger maps OR fewer players on maps) there is a definite advantage to going first (and i am not talking about the courtesy fog rule). I am also not talking about someone dropping a bonus as this is due to the luck of the drop. However lets pretend that the players each start at 15 regions. Whoever goes first gets an initial deploy of 5 where as once he attacks player B, then player B will only get to start with 4. This is an obvious advantage that normally leads to an almost automatic victory when they take a territory lead and next to impossible for it to be turned around as the territory count gets more and more out of hand.

My proposal is a "house rule" that i play with in real life and it works. Whoever goes first (other than any held bonuses) sets the deploy for every other player in the game for their first turn. Meaning even if Player B is below the 15 regions he started with, then for the first turn only he will still get the 5 deploy as player A did.

This keeps things more fair for a turn at least, and keeps player B both in the game and interested in completing the game especially if Player A ends up somehow killing off 4 regions on his turn (there is no way to come back if you are Player B and player A has 19 regions before your first turn when you have 11).

If you really think about it, this would be a great rule to incorporate in every game style on Conquer Club, and i dont see any real reason to oppose it. It works and most if not all should support it.
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby darth emperor on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:20 pm

And what would happen in Player A starts with a bonus and B no? Or on the other way around? If B has a bonus that A wasn't able to break?
Would they get equal deployment in both cases? If yes, which quantity? the ones B was going to have or A?
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby Lord_Bremen on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:44 pm

You could just make first turn income 3+bonus (e.g. everyone is assumed to have minimum territories).
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby reptile on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:54 pm

darth emperor wrote:And what would happen in Player A starts with a bonus and B no? Or on the other way around? If B has a bonus that A wasn't able to break?
Would they get equal deployment in both cases? If yes, which quantity? the ones B was going to have or A?


The bonuses would play as normal, as that is more of the luck of the draw. I am only trying to fix the territory drops equal. So if player A or player B dropped a bonus then that player would start off with a greater deployment.

If player A dropped a 3 bonus in addition to 15 starting territories. Then player A would get to start with (3+5=8) an 8 deployment. Under normal circumstances if player A took 1-3 regions from player B, then Player B would start with a 4 deployment (if he took 4 regions with the 8 deployment it would be a 3 deployment), However with the incorporation of this it would still be a 5 deployment for player B.

Short answer the bonuses other than region count still play as normal. Just the region count is the same. In a 4 player game if everyone started with 12 regions, then the last person to play would still get a drop of 4 like everyone else no matter who attacked who up to his turn.

Lord_Bremen wrote:You could just make first turn income 3+bonus (e.g. everyone is assumed to have minimum territories).
Yes that is along the same lines of what i am proposing, and in the smaller maps or more player case would be the same as what i am proposing. However with larger maps or conquest maps, it would probably not be as effective if everyone starts with 3 rather than 8 or whatever the map calls for (hive for example).
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:26 pm

Already been suggested, in the following threads:

viewtopic.php?f=471&t=123130

viewtopic.php?f=471&t=113837
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby alvinchek99 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Whats the point of changing the house rule (troops receive) when the dice is the one that decides the outcome of games?

The dice (luck) should not decide any player abilities the play the game, be it good or poor. If one is good..he wins, he is a noob ..he loses.

If cc need to have an element of luck...make it 30% maximum (since 3 dices vs 2 dices), for every attack and defend..separately. Meaning...there is no "brought forward" good dice nor bad dice. Every turns count as it own. For example...100 vs 100 ..the most troops that will survive for the winner is 30 (max), and after that turn...there is no "brought forward" bad dice nor good dice for either player. (which happened and happening to many players, including me, over and over again)

With that...player will not be "piss" by the dice, and eventually there will not be anymore "major" problem.
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby reptile on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:42 am

what i am suggesting really has nothing to do with the dice ... alvin
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby reptile on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:43 am

this needs to happen, i have done this at my house and it works great!!!
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby alvinchek99 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:03 am

What i suggested..if fulfilled, then ur suggestion will not be valid. :D
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Re: First turn equal deployment

Postby waltero on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:11 pm

The fact that CC allows the "first turn advantage '' Would suggest to me that they did not put a whole lot of thought into this matter.
Why they would allow this to be, is beyond me.
Anything would be better!

I would not expect anything to Change.
Best suggestion is not to play two player game on boards like this.

If you play one game as the second player...not much of a chance you will ever play again.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby agentcom on Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:43 pm

MERGED topics that metsfanmax found. They all look the same to me. Reptile's post does deal with the situation of bonuses.

Not sure how I feel about this one. I wonder if it would really equalize the game much. Let's say two players start with 15 regions. Player 2 has a certain percentage chance of being dropped to 14 regions by the start of his first turn. I don't know how much (if any) you decrease that chance under the new system by the start of the second turn. Seems like it would just delay that first turn advantage.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:07 pm

I don't think it would make a huge difference, but it would be an incremental improvement.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Vid_FISO on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:20 pm

Not followed the links but wouldn't an alternative idea be that no map is set to exactly 12/15/18/21/ etc. starting terits giving the advantage of fitst to go only needing to take one terit to cut the 2nd player's deploy? Start numbers of 14/17/20 require 3 terits to be taken to cut the deploy.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby spiesr on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:35 pm

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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby skychaser on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:03 pm

While i would never play 1x1, 2x2 or 3x3. This seems to be a good idea.


However, I would not play these kind of games cause I'm not a luck/bruteforce kind of player and I value control over the madness of these luck based and no strategy games.


I think the 1x1 is a game of madness and not a game of fairness, isn't it that people join these games are searching only for this kind of madness?

If people join these games in search of fairness then it's a good idea. But if the people join these games while in search for madness then it would be a loss.

But it can be easily decided by voting I guess.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby spiesr on Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:45 am

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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue May 07, 2013 10:42 am

Reading through all 6 pages I've had a few thoughts:

Having each player start their first turn with a lower number would be more "fair" than each player start with a higher number. This is due to the fact that in the beginning stages of a game, the relative size of a deploy makes all the difference. If you get a 5 deploy you can do much more damage to your opponent than 3 or none and the amount of damage/reach/forethought can only increase depending on the map. That being said, if any "fix" were to be added to the first turn deploy it ought to be that each player need get the same low number as opposed to high.

This suggestion, if it were to be enacted, would have to be optional. This change could affect too many maps/settings in too many different ways for it to be automatic for all games since doing so would eliminate a lot of fun options that people are used to and might actually enjoy.

1v1 games will always appear "unfair" since all of the factors of luck are amplified in these games by nature, including dice rolls. So basically if you're hoping for some kind of fix to make a 1v1 game more even, it will most likely have a nominal affect on the overall outcome of the game. The very beginning may be more even but the middle and end will generally progress to uneven, that's just how it goes with the dynamics of 1v1.

Overall I'm in favor of this suggestion being an option since it would obviously be beneficial on at least some maps/settings(the example provided where the first players got the full 6 troops and the last players got 3 springs to mind). However, I don't think it should be viewed as a cure-all for unbalanced play in a game comprised partially of luck. After all, even in chess white goes first. ;)
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby reptile on Tue May 07, 2013 10:32 pm

its not a cure all... dice will always take center stage in the 1v1's and will take a big part in the rest as well. its not intended to be a cure all and there is no such thing as a cure all...

however it is unfair for anyone to start with a disadvantage in any game. this is just one small step (one that i have no clue why it hasnt been enforced yet as it is obviously a great suggestion and just dumb that it hasnt been implimented yet) towards making things more fair for EVERYONE. if someone really leans on "who goes first"then they have wondered into the wrong site and should go play checkers or tic tac toe.

i still cant believe this has not been implemented yet. what are we waiting on?
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed May 08, 2013 10:11 am

reptile wrote:its not a cure all... dice will always take center stage in the 1v1's and will take a big part in the rest as well. its not intended to be a cure all and there is no such thing as a cure all...

Right, I'm agreeing with you. My point was that some people might expect this change to affect games more than it actually will.
A good way to know if this suggestion will actually be helpful would be to do a study of games in which the initial deploys actually made a difference in the outcome. If you bring actual numbers into the picture you will convince a lot more people that this change needs to be made.
reptile wrote:however it is unfair for anyone to start with a disadvantage in any game. this is just one small step (one that i have no clue why it hasnt been enforced yet as it is obviously a great suggestion and just dumb that it hasnt been implimented yet) towards making things more fair for EVERYONE. if someone really leans on "who goes first"then they have wondered into the wrong site and should go play checkers or tic tac toe.

Some people actually like the imbalance of these games in that they give them up to a 50/50 chance of having an advantage off the bat, which is good odds depending on your rank. ;)
reptile wrote:i still cant believe this has not been implemented yet. what are we waiting on?

The key is support. I'm sure there have been a lot of great suggestions in the past but if they don't draw the right amount of support(I'm not sure what the "right" amount is to be perfectly honest), they don't get enacted.

A lot of players have just chosen to avoid those games where going first dramatically affects first deploy. The reason being this site has so many options that you can easily find other options for games that are perfectly fair. Could there be even more fun options if this were enacted? Probably, but it may not be a big issue for a lot of people since they can just play something else.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Lord_Bremen on Sun May 12, 2013 9:34 pm

Everyone should just get 3 (or the map minimum) in the first round. This would be especially helpful in 1v1 when going first is a massive advantage.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby agentcom on Wed May 15, 2013 1:52 am

reptile wrote:
however it is unfair for anyone to start with a disadvantage in any game. this is just one small step (one that i have no clue why it hasnt been enforced yet as it is obviously a great suggestion and just dumb that it hasnt been implimented yet) towards making things more fair for EVERYONE.


You are just as likely to benefit from the advantage as to suffer. In that way it is fair. Using your line of reasoning, it is "unfair" that anyone should get bad dice. However, it is completely fair in another way since the dice are random.

I'm not necessarily opposed to this as an option (as FT suggests) or as something that could be coded into a particular map (a set deploy based on whether it's your first, second, etc. turn), but I don't think that it should be the default.

Keep in mind that we are all playing a game that is based on rolling dice. Some people may disagree on how much luck should be involved, but it will always be part of the game.
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equal initial deployments

Postby marius on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:30 am

Baltic Peninsula is a perfect example
if you play one on one, the player who goes first has a 98% chance of winning
change the rules so that in round 1 both players get equal deployments. right now the player who goes first wipes out the other and so the player who goes second doesn't get equal deployment in round one
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:36 am

MERGED
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Donelladan on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:38 am

I suggest, quit playing 1vs1 game, it sucks anyway, or play it only on map where who goes first almost doesnt matter :)
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby reptile on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:51 pm

*editing my book i just wrote to simply:

HOW is this not being submitted yet?

(also so many of these similar suggestions are merged its like a big circle, can we take it as a more serious suggestion?)
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Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (5) Clan Achievement (13) Tournament Contribution (5)

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