Make blue army numbers lighter

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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:49 pm

DiM wrote:
Gilligan wrote:Where's the option for "keep it as is"?


+1

colours are fine. and for those that don't think they're fine we have colour codes.


Again... this is not about being able to distinguish colours from each other - we indeed have colour codes for that.

But just try being the blue player on Ancient Greece. Or go to game finder and look at any ongoing game with 3 or more players on Ancient Greece - the blue numbers are damn near illegible.

So, if we make the blue numbers lighter, we no longer need to worry about the background for numbers being too dark. We can use black or dark army circles, things like that, we get more artistic freedom for the visual design for our new maps. I would have thought you of all people would be all for that.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby DiM on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:26 pm

natty dread wrote:
DiM wrote:
Gilligan wrote:Where's the option for "keep it as is"?


+1

colours are fine. and for those that don't think they're fine we have colour codes.


Again... this is not about being able to distinguish colours from each other - we indeed have colour codes for that.

But just try being the blue player on Ancient Greece. Or go to game finder and look at any ongoing game with 3 or more players on Ancient Greece - the blue numbers are damn near illegible.

So, if we make the blue numbers lighter, we no longer need to worry about the background for numbers being too dark. We can use black or dark army circles, things like that, we get more artistic freedom for the visual design for our new maps. I would have thought you of all people would be all for that.



i've played ancient greece and i've even been blue on that map and i didn't have any sort of problem seeing my armies.
if somebody can't see blue armies on ancient greece then playing CC should be the least of their worries. seeing an optician should be their top priority.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby Gilligan on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:51 pm

I agree...I've never had any issues reading any numbers on any map.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:15 pm

DiM wrote:i've played ancient greece and i've even been blue on that map and i didn't have any sort of problem seeing my armies.
if somebody can't see blue armies on ancient greece then playing CC should be the least of their worries. seeing an optician should be their top priority.


Come on now Dim. Try to make a map with black army circles today, and the graphics CA:s will tell you it's not acceptable because the blue numbers are hard to see on it. As they should, with the current blue colour.

Sure, they're not exactly invisible or impossible to see, but they're still harder to see than other numbers, and for someone who's unfamiliar with the map, or plays a speed game, or both, it may mean missing a territory, or things like that.

None of the other numbers are problematic on dark background. If the blue numbers are made lighter, then we can have more options in the visual design of maps.


Can you seriously tell me that you think the top blue number on this image is easy to read:
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby Bones2484 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:25 pm

I do not see a downside to this. Making things better and easier should be a priority... especially until I hear a reason why this shouldn't happen other than "it doesn't affect me, so no".

As a side note to recent posts, I want to point out what DiM said earlier in this thread:
DiM wrote:i agree to making blue lighter but more importantly i would like the grey/slate to be changed. it's a horribly difficult colour.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby DiM on Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:15 pm

natty dread wrote:Can you seriously tell me that you think the top blue number on this image is easy to read:
Image


yes it easy to read. for me at least. reading the actual numbers is really easy regardless of how light or dark the background is.

the only problem i have is with slate which i sometimes confuse with neutral. but that's a matter of differentiating the colours not the numbers so i can simply turn on colour codes and it's fixed.

anyway, i'm not necessarily opposed to blue being changed but rather to the idea of not having an option to "keep it as it is" in the poll.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:59 pm

DiM wrote:yes it easy to read. for me at least.


I can read it too. But not as easily as the other numbers. If you compare the other numbers on the top row to the blue, every other number is easier to read.

Anyway, even if you can read the numbers easily, there are lots of people in this thread alone who have problems reading the blue numbers on dark backgrounds, and this places limitations to the graphics we can currently do on our maps. I want the freedom to use black or almost black troop circles for my maps if I so choose. I want to have the option, if I some day decide I want to create a dark & sinister sci-fi/cyberpunk map or something like that...

DiM wrote:anyway, i'm not necessarily opposed to blue being changed but rather to the idea of not having an option to "keep it as it is" in the poll.


I didn't make the poll, if the mods want to change it it's fine with me.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter

Postby cairnswk on Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:01 pm

DiM wrote:i agree to making blue lighter but more importantly i would like the grey/slate to be changed. it's a horribly difficult colour.

Yes, i have to agree. Looking for the grey is horrifying. :roll:
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby agentcom on Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:46 pm

I don't see how this idea has been stickied. I assume that means that it's being implemented in some way. Making blue lighter will make it harder to distinguish from cyan. Someone pointed this out earlier, and I figured that would be the end of the conversation. If this is implemented, you'll get a bunch of people making the same complaints about how blue/cyan are hard to tell apart. And you'll have everyone responding "just use color codes." So you'll have the same debate as is happening now, but after you've gone and changed the army color for all the games on this site.

If you really want to make blue easier to see on darker maps, it's actually a lot more simple than this: make the outline white instead of black. That would solve any "problem" that people have without adding a different problem. It's really ridiculous that blue has a black outline anyway. Defeats the purpose of even having an outline. Can you imagine if yellow or neutrals had a white outline? That would be horrible.

Also, since someone is obviously messing with OP's post and adding a poll, it's not fair to only give the options for change but not give an option for leave it as it is. What good are your results going to be? All they'll tell you is that IF you make the change, then you should change it to that color. It does not tell you whether you should make the change in the first place. But considering that this topic has somehow been stickied and some (Mod?) is messing with OP's post and adding polls, I guess someone is trying to fast track this through. And make it look like it's getting a bunch of support.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:50 pm

agentcom wrote:Making blue lighter will make it harder to distinguish from cyan.


And we have colour codes for that. There's always someone who has trouble telling some colours apart, no matter what colour they are.

The point is, blue numbers are the only ones that are hard to see on dark background.

agentcom wrote: I guess someone is trying to fast track this through. And make it look like it's getting a bunch of support.


It is getting a bunch of support though. There's several pages of support for this.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby agentcom on Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:04 pm

natty dread wrote:
It is getting a bunch of support though. There's several pages of support for this.


And I am here to voice my opposition. If you want to make blue more obvious do the same thing to it that is done with all the other colors: have an outline that is significantly different from the color itself. That is the reason for number outlines. The problem here isn't with what color they chose for blue. It's that unlike all the other colors, they outlined it with a very similar color.

On any given territory you can see the numbers by distinguishing between the color of the territory and either the color of the number and the color of the outline. With blue, those latter 2 are simply too close to each other.

Now, there are a couple fixes for this problem: 1) Not allow mapmakers to use dark colors; 2) Change the number color; or 3) change the outline color. Obviously 1 is a bad idea. #2, which is suggested here, isn't necessarily a bad idea. It's just that we've already used up several colors and we want to keep them as distinguishable as possible. The existing color scheme seems to work for most people. Or maybe I should say that there doesn't appear to be much agreement on what the worst part of the existing color scheme is. So I don't think we should try to tweak those colors. #3 is so much better because you can change the outline color from black to white and not have to worry about it.

.... This seems like such an obviously better solution to me, that I'm having trouble seeing why people wouldn't jump behind this rather than the color change. As this thread amply demonstrates though, human color perception can be a weird thing.


Oh and one more note to natty: I realize that color codes are an option. But I don't think that we should potentially add to the color confusion just because someone can use color codes to fix it. Well that's my .02
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:36 pm

Well, thanks for sharing your opinion. Personally I don't see much downside in making blue lighter - it would still be distinguishable from cyan, since blue and cyan are totally different colours.

Ultimately, even if this suggestion is submitted, it doesn't matter - lackattack makes the final decision, if he thinks there's a better solution than changing the colour, then that's what's going to happen, or if he thinks this is a non-issue, then nothing is going to happen - and the latter option is the most likely... we all know these suggestions rarely affect anything.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby chapcrap on Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:41 pm

natty dread wrote:Well, thanks for sharing your opinion. Personally I don't see much downside in making blue lighter - it would still be distinguishable from cyan, since blue and cyan are totally different colours.

With that argument, you can make the background any dark color except blue. Because they're totally different colors.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:47 am

chapcrap wrote:With that argument, you can make the background any dark color except blue. Because they're totally different colors.


No, it's not really comparable. Blue numbers don't have to go on top of cyan numbers.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter

Postby zimmah on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:50 am

ndrs wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:Does anyone else have any other suggestions for colors? Or do they like the two presented? If so, we could put up a poll to find out which one people like most.


TheForgivenOne wrote:Does anyone else have any other suggestions for colors? Or do they like the two presented? If so, we could put up a poll to find out which one people like most.


Current:

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Suggestion:

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blue: #3494ff
grey: #9a9a9a (a bit brighter)


Or, if I could change them all: (:lol:)

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red: #ff464a
pink: #ffb0f9
teal: #70f0e9
blue: #5d9aff
yellow #f8ef5b
grey: #a6a6a6
orange: #ff8c4c
green: #6ee069

teal vs. green would need some tweaking, probably others as well, but...


i think chance them all would be nice.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:18 am

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See, blue and cyan are totally easy to tell apart even if blue is lighter.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby Jippd on Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:35 pm

I find no problem with blue. Looked up ancient greece maps and can see blue clear as day (I use color codes). So I see no confusion with color codes on. Checked conquer man as well.

I think there are better suggestions that deserve the extremely limited time CC has. IMO.

So maybe give another map as an example, but I have no problem seeing blue or any other colors with color codes on.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:46 am

I would support letting the foundry ppl decide which colors to use. I personally don't see a problem with the colors, but if those graphical folks say there is one, I believe it.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby chapcrap on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:42 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:I would support letting the foundry ppl decide which colors to use. I personally don't see a problem with the colors, but if those graphical folks say there is one, I believe it.

The problem with that is that there are people in the foundry who don't agree. DiM has said he didn't see a problem.
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby HighlanderAttack on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:00 pm

if you change it to the first one then it will look too much like cyan --just my two cents
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:56 pm

HighlanderAttack wrote:if you change it to the first one then it will look too much like cyan --just my two cents


No it won't, see the image a few posts upwards...

chapcrap wrote:DiM has said he didn't see a problem.


Dim says lots of things...
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby agentcom on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:24 pm

natty dread wrote:
HighlanderAttack wrote:if you change it to the first one then it will look too much like cyan --just my two cents


No it won't, see the image a few posts upwards...



More than one person is saying this (including me). A simple "No it won't" doesn't mean that some people don't think this is a problem. In the case of how colors are seen, perception really is reality. If someone thinks it looks similar, then it does. At least to them.

I'll once again say that the easier solution would to have a more contrasting color used for outline. White seems to be the obvious choice. All dark colors (especially blue) should be outlined with white. All light colors should stay outlined with black. I suppose there might be some argument about which colors are light or dark, but for now, we're talking about blue. Just leave it the same and outline it with a different color. I think that this would solve most (all?) people's problems with the coloring and avoid creating new ones.

I don't know why this idea isn't gaining traction and instead we're talking about the color change. ](*,)
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby natty dread on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:22 pm

agentcom wrote:In the case of how colors are seen, perception really is reality.


Actually, it's still perception.

There are plenty of colourblind people who can't tell lots of those colours apart. Should we figure out a way to make all the colours distinguishable for them - oh wait...
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:45 pm

chapcrap wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:I would support letting the foundry ppl decide which colors to use. I personally don't see a problem with the colors, but if those graphical folks say there is one, I believe it.

The problem with that is that there are people in the foundry who don't agree. DiM has said he didn't see a problem.


Don't forget his post on the second page of this thread.

DiM wrote:i agree to making blue lighter
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Re: Make blue army numbers lighter[Poll Added]

Postby chapcrap on Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:45 am

Bones2484 wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:I would support letting the foundry ppl decide which colors to use. I personally don't see a problem with the colors, but if those graphical folks say there is one, I believe it.

The problem with that is that there are people in the foundry who don't agree. DiM has said he didn't see a problem.


Don't forget his post on the second page of this thread.

DiM wrote:i agree to making blue lighter

:lol: He can't make up his own mind. I did not go back through the whole thread to re-read everything again, so I didn't remember him saying that.
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