Redefinition of the farming rule

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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby rockfist on Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:37 pm

I hope to win somewhat more than 50% (although realistically not more than 60). I am just cocky (stupid) enough to think I can.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Woodruff on Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:46 pm

rockfist wrote:I hope to win somewhat more than 50% (although realistically not more than 60). I am just cocky (stupid) enough to think I can.


Ok, but you surely understand the point I'm making. <smile>
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:42 am

Why should it be illegal to play games you know you'll likely win?

I still haven't heard a good answer to this question.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Jippd on Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:11 am

natty_dread wrote:Why should it be illegal to play games you know you'll likely win?

I still haven't heard a good answer to this question.


Another good question is who would join or create a game that they don't think they will win?
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby MichelSableheart on Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:55 am

natty_dread wrote:So you want to give more power in the hands of the moderators to arbitrarily decide who gets punished and who doesn't?
No more power or arbitrariness then they already have. In the current farming rules, they have to determine the difference between occasional and systematic. They already have to determine what use of language is acceptable or unacceptable behaviour. Determining intent is of a similar magnitude, and can be expected from good, fair moderators. Whether or not we have those is another issue, that should not influence this discussion IMO.

rockfist wrote:I have gone on medal hunts often...when I want to get some points and I've been on a medal hunt I will "target" higher ranked players in speed games because I figure I am somewhere around 50% to win and the points differential is such that by winning 50% of those games I will win a lot more points than I lose. Would this constitute picking on a specific group of players and thus be farming?
Picking on a specific group of players isn't the only part of the proposed farming rule. There's also the "intent to take advantage" part. What you describe would probably be picking on a specific group of players, but without intent to take advantage, there's no problem.

natty_dread wrote:Why should it be illegal to play games you know you'll likely win?
Following the rules proposed, you're free to play whatever maps and settings you want, as long as you play all comers. It's not illegal to play games you know you'll likely win, it's illegal to systematically play opponents you'll likely win against. Why should it be? Because that behaviour creates a poor playing experience for those players.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Woodruff on Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:38 pm

Jippd wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Why should it be illegal to play games you know you'll likely win?

I still haven't heard a good answer to this question.


Another good question is who would join or create a game that they don't think they will win?


I would. I don't want an easy win, I want the fun of actual competition.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby chapcrap on Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:52 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Jippd wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Why should it be illegal to play games you know you'll likely win?

I still haven't heard a good answer to this question.


Another good question is who would join or create a game that they don't think they will win?


I would. I don't want an easy win, I want the fun of actual competition.

I would too. For medals or to learn new maps.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Jippd on Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:29 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Jippd wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Why should it be illegal to play games you know you'll likely win?

I still haven't heard a good answer to this question.


Another good question is who would join or create a game that they don't think they will win?


I would. I don't want an easy win, I want the fun of actual competition.

I would too. For medals or to learn new maps.


My point is that every map I play (whether I know it or not), I go into the game planning on winning whether I will or not is a different question.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby chapcrap on Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:16 pm

Jippd wrote:My point is that every map I play (whether I know it or not), I go into the game planning on winning whether I will or not is a different question.

Fair enough.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Woodruff on Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:42 pm

Jippd wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Jippd wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Why should it be illegal to play games you know you'll likely win?

I still haven't heard a good answer to this question.


Another good question is who would join or create a game that they don't think they will win?


I would. I don't want an easy win, I want the fun of actual competition.

I would too. For medals or to learn new maps.


My point is that every map I play (whether I know it or not), I go into the game planning on winning whether I will or not is a different question.


Well, of course. But that's really not the sort of thing that's the problem...that's just simple competitiveness. That's a far different thing from knowing you're getting an almost certain victory.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:49 pm

MichelSableheart wrote:Why should it be? Because that behaviour creates a poor playing experience for those players.


How do you know that? Why can't those players make up their own minds about that? Maybe they also like the challenge.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Woodruff on Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:37 pm

natty dread wrote:
MichelSableheart wrote:Why should it be? Because that behaviour creates a poor playing experience for those players.


How do you know that? Why can't those players make up their own minds about that? Maybe they also like the challenge.


We have a current situation where a very high-ranking player who has made a serious habit (19% of his games, I believe) of playing against ?s AND has joined games even at the explicit request of these players that he not join them. Of course, these players are so new that they don't know about or understand the function of the FOE list and how that could help them. At least one of these players (that I am personally aware of) has not returned to the site since this very high-ranking player joined his fourth or fifth game against him, which followed that request by one or two games. So the site is actually losing customers by supporting this sort of gameplay, but they don't seem to care.

Of course, when the multi-hunters are allowed to serially multi-ban newbies that they're playing against in games and nothing is done about it...well, what can you really expect, I suppose.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby MichelSableheart on Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:17 am

Natty_Dread wrote:How do you know that? Why can't those players make up their own minds about that? Maybe they also like the challenge.
If it didn't create a poor playing experience for those players, we wouldn't have a sergeant complaining in the C&A forum just a week ago, nor would we have player's requesting other players not to join their games. I don't have the time to do thorough research, but the complaints come up in the C&A forum when it's not against the rules and when only a small percentage of users uses the forums. That indicates that there is a problem.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby chapcrap on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:33 am

Woodruff wrote:At least one of these players (that I am personally aware of) has not returned to the site since this very high-ranking player joined his fourth or fifth game against him, which followed that request by one or two games. So the site is actually losing customers by supporting this sort of gameplay, but they don't seem to care.

If the site (which actually has no feelings of its own) doesn't care, then why did they just implement new rules to ban farmers from joining games against NRs? It seems like the site explicitly cared about this situation, because the new punishment takes into account this exact type of thing.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Woodruff on Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:34 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:At least one of these players (that I am personally aware of) has not returned to the site since this very high-ranking player joined his fourth or fifth game against him, which followed that request by one or two games. So the site is actually losing customers by supporting this sort of gameplay, but they don't seem to care.


If the site (which actually has no feelings of its own) doesn't care, then why did they just implement new rules to ban farmers from joining games against NRs? It seems like the site explicitly cared about this situation, because the new punishment takes into account this exact type of thing.


Those rules have no actual teeth. There is no actual punishment for wrongdoing. It's akin to a bankrobber being caught and having the punishment be "you can no longer enter banks". Big flipping deal.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby chapcrap on Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:43 pm

Woodruff wrote:Those rules have no actual teeth. There is no actual punishment for wrongdoing. It's akin to a bankrobber being caught and having the punishment be "you can no longer enter banks". Big flipping deal.

It can be more liberally used. And it already was used in the case that you spoke of earlier.

How many people are actually farming? Not a lot. There's a lot of people bogrolling and go after lower ranks. But not many actually farming.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Woodruff on Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:28 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Those rules have no actual teeth. There is no actual punishment for wrongdoing. It's akin to a bankrobber being caught and having the punishment be "you can no longer enter banks". Big flipping deal.


It can be more liberally used. And it already was used in the case that you spoke of earlier.
How many people are actually farming? Not a lot. There's a lot of people bogrolling and go after lower ranks. But not many actually farming.


I agree with what you say here, but I still maintain that it is irrelevant. If the rule has no teeth, no actual punishment, it is irrelevant. So someone is forced not to play newbies...does the player have any actual incentive NOT to play newbies? No...not that I can tell. As far as I can tell, this rule ENCOURAGES people to play newbies, because it formalizes that there is no actual punishment to the action. Yes, I am serious.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby chapcrap on Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:59 pm

Woodruff wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Those rules have no actual teeth. There is no actual punishment for wrongdoing. It's akin to a bankrobber being caught and having the punishment be "you can no longer enter banks". Big flipping deal.


It can be more liberally used. And it already was used in the case that you spoke of earlier.
How many people are actually farming? Not a lot. There's a lot of people bogrolling and go after lower ranks. But not many actually farming.


I agree with what you say here, but I still maintain that it is irrelevant. If the rule has no teeth, no actual punishment, it is irrelevant. So someone is forced not to play newbies...does the player have any actual incentive NOT to play newbies? No...not that I can tell. As far as I can tell, this rule ENCOURAGES people to play newbies, because it formalizes that there is no actual punishment to the action. Yes, I am serious.

I can't say that I fully disagree with the sentiment. If I decided to start farming, then I would get a warning and a subsequent NR ban for the second time. It stops the farming, but I could have a real nice go of it first.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby jgordon1111 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:41 pm

Oh ok 8-)
Last edited by jgordon1111 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby QoH on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:50 pm

jgordon1111 wrote:Lmaof

:?

lmfao?
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Woodruff on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:52 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Those rules have no actual teeth. There is no actual punishment for wrongdoing. It's akin to a bankrobber being caught and having the punishment be "you can no longer enter banks". Big flipping deal.


It can be more liberally used. And it already was used in the case that you spoke of earlier.
How many people are actually farming? Not a lot. There's a lot of people bogrolling and go after lower ranks. But not many actually farming.


I agree with what you say here, but I still maintain that it is irrelevant. If the rule has no teeth, no actual punishment, it is irrelevant. So someone is forced not to play newbies...does the player have any actual incentive NOT to play newbies? No...not that I can tell. As far as I can tell, this rule ENCOURAGES people to play newbies, because it formalizes that there is no actual punishment to the action. Yes, I am serious.


I can't say that I fully disagree with the sentiment. If I decided to start farming, then I would get a warning and a subsequent NR ban for the second time. It stops the farming, but I could have a real nice go of it first.


Exactly. You understand my point perfectly, I believe.
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:52 am

Woodruff wrote:We have a current situation where a very high-ranking player who has made a serious habit (19% of his games, I believe) of playing against ?s AND has joined games even at the explicit request of these players that he not join them.


We already have a foe function. If the new players don't know how to use it, then maybe the easiest, least restrictive solution would be to inform the new players on how to use the foe function?
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:57 am

Woodruff wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Those rules have no actual teeth. There is no actual punishment for wrongdoing. It's akin to a bankrobber being caught and having the punishment be "you can no longer enter banks". Big flipping deal.


It can be more liberally used. And it already was used in the case that you spoke of earlier.
How many people are actually farming? Not a lot. There's a lot of people bogrolling and go after lower ranks. But not many actually farming.


I agree with what you say here, but I still maintain that it is irrelevant. If the rule has no teeth, no actual punishment, it is irrelevant. So someone is forced not to play newbies...does the player have any actual incentive NOT to play newbies? No...not that I can tell. As far as I can tell, this rule ENCOURAGES people to play newbies, because it formalizes that there is no actual punishment to the action. Yes, I am serious.


The problem is, that it's not always easy to determine whether someone is "farming" or just playing games that happen to have lots of NR:s. Since there's no clear treshold for how many NR:s you can play, nor is it really feasible to determine such a treshold; if there was a strict punishment for farming NR:s, this would result in more unfair judgements of those who may not necessarily be intentionally "farming".
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby Woodruff on Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:41 pm

natty dread wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Those rules have no actual teeth. There is no actual punishment for wrongdoing. It's akin to a bankrobber being caught and having the punishment be "you can no longer enter banks". Big flipping deal.


It can be more liberally used. And it already was used in the case that you spoke of earlier.
How many people are actually farming? Not a lot. There's a lot of people bogrolling and go after lower ranks. But not many actually farming.


I agree with what you say here, but I still maintain that it is irrelevant. If the rule has no teeth, no actual punishment, it is irrelevant. So someone is forced not to play newbies...does the player have any actual incentive NOT to play newbies? No...not that I can tell. As far as I can tell, this rule ENCOURAGES people to play newbies, because it formalizes that there is no actual punishment to the action. Yes, I am serious.


The problem is, that it's not always easy to determine whether someone is "farming" or just playing games that happen to have lots of NR:s.


Yet sometimes it absolutely is, particularly when invitations to NRs is happening. As Michael pointed out, sometimes intent really IS obvious. I believe I can speak for most when I say that we're primarily concerned about the plainly obvious cases...which there are enough of to make a point of it.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
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Re: Redefinition of the farming rule

Postby BadgerJelly on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:44 am

How about changing the "Scoring" system?
Seems to mean absolutely nothing so people cheating this system are doubly stupid :P

Also I do not understand why so many games start with Flatrate placement of 3 units on each territory? This generally causes luck to factor into the game play too much. Don't get me wrong Flatrate Placement is great sometimes but only in specific set ups.
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