Amount of starting territories in 1vs1

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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:57 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
jakewilliams wrote:I tried to look up this info, but because of starting positions in XML, I couldn't do quick math based on the number of territories. I'm game to do this research if someone can show me a quick way to look through the XML and figure it out. I may even be game for the long way, but I'm certainly not excited to do it.


Have you looked into seeing if Chipv's Map Database can be of any assistance?

http://chipv.freehostia.com/


--Andy


It doesn't have the right information in it. The new map information database will hopefully have it, if that ever gets done. I forget if it was you or MrBenn that was soliciting feedback.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:00 pm

jakewilliams,
Could you please provide a single example to explain what it is you are talking about? I have a guess, actually two guesses, but I don't want to muddy the waters with the wrong guess.

Once you post the example, in detail, I will have a lot to say.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:27 pm

Draknor: level 1. In 1v1 you each start with 12 terits. If you take a single terit from the next player, they start with 11 (while you have 13) and it's very hard to take back two territories with a drop of 3 troops. First turn is a major advantage in a sequential game, or non-speed freestyle game.

Solar System 4 players (so either 2v2 dubs or 4p) you each start with 15 terits. With normal rolls the first turn, you can get the next player to 14 terits and at a disadvantage to start (they get 4 to drop opposed to the 5 the first player started with). With great dice you take 4 terits and they drop 3 (while you dropped 5).

This would be of lesser importance in multiplayer or manual games - but as I play mostly team or 1v1 games this affects me greatly.

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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:56 pm

This is an excellent idea and would receive my full support. It's an advantage going first in itself - this will always be the case - but when that is further enhanced by receiving a deploy which is a multiple of 3 or a bonus on the drop then the player going 2nd can only pray for lucky dice to recover his position. In a strategy game such prayers shouldn't be necessary - at least not from Turn #1.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:01 pm

jakewilliams wrote:Draknor: level 1. In 1v1 you each start with 12 terits. If you take a single terit from the next player, they start with 11 (while you have 13) and it's very hard to take back two territories with a drop of 3 troops. First turn is a major advantage in a sequential game, or non-speed freestyle game.

Solar System 4 players (so either 2v2 dubs or 4p) you each start with 15 terits. With normal rolls the first turn, you can get the next player to 14 terits and at a disadvantage to start (they get 4 to drop opposed to the 5 the first player started with). With great dice you take 4 terits and they drop 3 (while you dropped 5).

This would be of lesser importance in multiplayer or manual games - but as I play mostly team or 1v1 games this affects me greatly.

Jake



I have three perspectives on this:

First, yes, you are right it is unfair to the player-who-goes-first.

Second, the dice aren't that predictable. On maps like Solar System and Draknor, I've gone first my fair share of the time. Some of those first turns result in winning 2 or even 3 territories from my opponent. Other first turns result in winning 0 territories. I play my fair share of 1v1 as well. I like the challenge that it brings to go second and have the opponent take one or more territories from me. I win a fair share of those, but, yes, ultimately the player who goes first wins - no matter which map it is. Typically an inexperienced player or a player new to a map will be the one to lose when going first - on any map.

Third, If you reduce the number of territories owned by players, you end up increasing the number of neutral territories resulting in more player territories getting locked in by neutrals. The benefit, then, goes to the player who goes first AND has an enemy on his/her border as opposed to a neutral. (assuming as you have that firstplayer's dice will be successful. I think increaing the number of neutral territories on a map like draknor will make those games last longer...taking them out of the realm of being played in speed...and possibly taking them out of the realm of being played in 1v1.

There are maps that should see a reduction. Ridiculously large maps like Stalingrad, WWII Europe, etc. On those maps, there are simply too many armies awarded tot he player who goes first.

What I would like to see is some kind of coding that prevents multi-territory continent bonuses to be handed out on the drop. One example would be any continental bonus on the Classic map. Another example would be any continental bonus or capitals bonus on BeNeLux.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby TheForgivenOne on Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:23 am

The stop of landing a bonus has been discussed before. That's the luck part of Ri.. i mean CC. That sort of thing can happens on the board game. If you remove people accidentally dropping Aussie on Classic, then people will start complaining if someone drops 3 on Aussie, and you only got 1.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:18 am

If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.

What would be useful is to get a complete list of maps that are impacted by this, and the location of any proposed starting neutrals (remember that these will have to be in the same place in every single game on the map).
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:18 am

jakewilliams wrote:I tried to look up this info, but because of starting positions in XML, I couldn't do quick math based on the number of territories. I'm game to do this research if someone can show me a quick way to look through the XML and figure it out. I may even be game for the long way, but I'm certainly not excited to do it.


Jake, as MrBenn said, the first step is to have a complete list of those maps, if you want i can help you to find them during this weekend. Grab me if you see me online ;)

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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Dako on Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:58 am

It is good that foundry people are participating in this. I would so love to see unbalanced starting positions to be fixed.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:24 am

I've seen Draknor and Solar System mentioned already. Any others?
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby #1_stunna on Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:31 am

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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:47 am

Queen_Herpes wrote:Second, the dice aren't that predictable. On maps like Solar System and Draknor, I've gone first my fair share of the time. Some of those first turns result in winning 2 or even 3 territories from my opponent. Other first turns result in winning 0 territories. I play my fair share of 1v1 as well. I like the challenge that it brings to go second and have the opponent take one or more territories from me. I win a fair share of those, but, yes, ultimately the player who goes first wins - no matter which map it is. Typically an inexperienced player or a player new to a map will be the one to lose when going first - on any map.


I agree the dice are not predictable, but I would say that on average, this makes it more unfair. I disagree with your statement that regardless of the map, the first player wins. Sure if you are playing an experienced player, but if you put two experienced players together on an unfair map, I feel it's more likely that the player who gets the first turn wins, which is unfair. On a fair map, I think the second player has an equal shot at winning (depending on dice/drop of course).

Queen_Herpes wrote:There are maps that should see a reduction. Ridiculously large maps like Stalingrad, WWII Europe, etc. On those maps, there are simply too many armies awarded tot he player who goes first.


I don't play those large maps enough to have enough insight. I'd love to get other opinions from players who play those maps.

Queen_Herpes wrote:What I would like to see is some kind of coding that prevents multi-territory continent bonuses to be handed out on the drop. One example would be any continental bonus on the Classic map. Another example would be any continental bonus or capitals bonus on BeNeLux.


Me too, but that would be a separate suggestion, or tangential to what I'm doing here.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:51 am

MrBenn wrote:If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.

What would be useful is to get a complete list of maps that are impacted by this, and the location of any proposed starting neutrals (remember that these will have to be in the same place in every single game on the map).


I'm working on this. I'll probably have a list up early next week.

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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby trapyoung on Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:21 am

MrBenn wrote:If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.


Is there anyway to code that the first round deployments for every player are equal to their initial territory drop. So if every player is dropped 15 territories and then Player 1 takes 1 territory from Player 3 and drops them to 14, Player 3's deployment for the turn will still be 5 armies? That would be a simple XML fix and not require neutrals to be inserted in various maps nor require selecting a permanent neutral territory for each map.
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Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:45 am

trapyoung wrote:
MrBenn wrote:If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.


Is there anyway to code that the first round deployments for every player are equal to their initial territory drop. So if every player is dropped 15 territories and then Player 1 takes 1 territory from Player 3 and drops them to 14, Player 3's deployment for the turn will still be 5 armies? That would be a simple XML fix and not require neutrals to be inserted in various maps nor require selecting a permanent neutral territory for each map.


I agree with this perspective from trapyoung. If I understand it correctly, he wants everyone to be given the same number of armies in round one, regardless of whether they go first, second, or third. This would prevent, IMO, completely redoing every map out there that has a perceived imbalance of territories.

I say "perceived imbalance of territories" because I don't think we will ever come up with the right number of territories to start with on any given map. Understanding that in 1v1 a player-who-goes-first starts with 15 territories then reduces his enemy to 14 territories has then subjected his enemy to a loss of one army. However, what about the imbalance in a game where both players start with 14 territories? The benefit still leans towards the player-who-goes-first. Assuming victorious round one dice (which we are assuming throughout this discussion...and I believe that is a huge-leap-assumption), the player-who-goes-first now has 15 territories and player2 (with either 13 or 14 territories) is put in the difficult position of necessity to knock player-who-goes-first down from 15 to 14 (and increase his own territories up to 14 or 15). Similarly, if player-who-goes-first gains two territories in round one (up to 16 from 14), player2 is at an even greater disadvantage.

All that being said, I believe that trapyoung has a better solution. Give all players the same number of round1 armies. I might even go so far as to suggest that in round one no bonuses are awarded to any player who is dropped a bonus, but, I think trapyoung's suggestion is good enough for now.
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