Amount of starting territories in 1vs1

Suggestions that have been inactive for a long period of time.

Moderators: Suggestions Team, Global Moderators

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:57 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
jakewilliams wrote:I tried to look up this info, but because of starting positions in XML, I couldn't do quick math based on the number of territories. I'm game to do this research if someone can show me a quick way to look through the XML and figure it out. I may even be game for the long way, but I'm certainly not excited to do it.


Have you looked into seeing if Chipv's Map Database can be of any assistance?

http://chipv.freehostia.com/


--Andy


It doesn't have the right information in it. The new map information database will hopefully have it, if that ever gets done. I forget if it was you or MrBenn that was soliciting feedback.
User avatar
Captain Ace Rimmer
 
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:22 pm
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (9) Map Contribution (1)
Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (4)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:00 pm

jakewilliams,
Could you please provide a single example to explain what it is you are talking about? I have a guess, actually two guesses, but I don't want to muddy the waters with the wrong guess.

Once you post the example, in detail, I will have a lot to say.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006

This link is the best way to make new players feel welcome...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006
User avatar
Lieutenant Queen_Herpes
 
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Right Here. Look into my eyes.
Medals: 29
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (1)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:27 pm

Draknor: level 1. In 1v1 you each start with 12 terits. If you take a single terit from the next player, they start with 11 (while you have 13) and it's very hard to take back two territories with a drop of 3 troops. First turn is a major advantage in a sequential game, or non-speed freestyle game.

Solar System 4 players (so either 2v2 dubs or 4p) you each start with 15 terits. With normal rolls the first turn, you can get the next player to 14 terits and at a disadvantage to start (they get 4 to drop opposed to the 5 the first player started with). With great dice you take 4 terits and they drop 3 (while you dropped 5).

This would be of lesser importance in multiplayer or manual games - but as I play mostly team or 1v1 games this affects me greatly.

Jake
User avatar
Captain Ace Rimmer
 
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:22 pm
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (9) Map Contribution (1)
Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (4)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:56 pm

This is an excellent idea and would receive my full support. It's an advantage going first in itself - this will always be the case - but when that is further enhanced by receiving a deploy which is a multiple of 3 or a bonus on the drop then the player going 2nd can only pray for lucky dice to recover his position. In a strategy game such prayers shouldn't be necessary - at least not from Turn #1.
User avatar
General Chariot of Fire
 
Posts: 3116
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:13 am
Location: Hong Kong
Medals: 90
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (21) General Achievement (9) Clan Achievement (26)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:01 pm

jakewilliams wrote:Draknor: level 1. In 1v1 you each start with 12 terits. If you take a single terit from the next player, they start with 11 (while you have 13) and it's very hard to take back two territories with a drop of 3 troops. First turn is a major advantage in a sequential game, or non-speed freestyle game.

Solar System 4 players (so either 2v2 dubs or 4p) you each start with 15 terits. With normal rolls the first turn, you can get the next player to 14 terits and at a disadvantage to start (they get 4 to drop opposed to the 5 the first player started with). With great dice you take 4 terits and they drop 3 (while you dropped 5).

This would be of lesser importance in multiplayer or manual games - but as I play mostly team or 1v1 games this affects me greatly.

Jake



I have three perspectives on this:

First, yes, you are right it is unfair to the player-who-goes-first.

Second, the dice aren't that predictable. On maps like Solar System and Draknor, I've gone first my fair share of the time. Some of those first turns result in winning 2 or even 3 territories from my opponent. Other first turns result in winning 0 territories. I play my fair share of 1v1 as well. I like the challenge that it brings to go second and have the opponent take one or more territories from me. I win a fair share of those, but, yes, ultimately the player who goes first wins - no matter which map it is. Typically an inexperienced player or a player new to a map will be the one to lose when going first - on any map.

Third, If you reduce the number of territories owned by players, you end up increasing the number of neutral territories resulting in more player territories getting locked in by neutrals. The benefit, then, goes to the player who goes first AND has an enemy on his/her border as opposed to a neutral. (assuming as you have that firstplayer's dice will be successful. I think increaing the number of neutral territories on a map like draknor will make those games last longer...taking them out of the realm of being played in speed...and possibly taking them out of the realm of being played in 1v1.

There are maps that should see a reduction. Ridiculously large maps like Stalingrad, WWII Europe, etc. On those maps, there are simply too many armies awarded tot he player who goes first.

What I would like to see is some kind of coding that prevents multi-territory continent bonuses to be handed out on the drop. One example would be any continental bonus on the Classic map. Another example would be any continental bonus or capitals bonus on BeNeLux.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006

This link is the best way to make new players feel welcome...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006
User avatar
Lieutenant Queen_Herpes
 
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Right Here. Look into my eyes.
Medals: 29
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (1)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby TheForgivenOne on Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:23 am

The stop of landing a bonus has been discussed before. That's the luck part of Ri.. i mean CC. That sort of thing can happens on the board game. If you remove people accidentally dropping Aussie on Classic, then people will start complaining if someone drops 3 on Aussie, and you only got 1.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant TheForgivenOne
 
Posts: 5154
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:27 pm
Location: Lost somewhere in the snow. HELP ME
Medals: 83
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (4) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (14) Clan Achievement (7)
General Contribution (11)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:18 am

If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.

What would be useful is to get a complete list of maps that are impacted by this, and the location of any proposed starting neutrals (remember that these will have to be in the same place in every single game on the map).
Image
PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
User avatar
Lieutenant MrBenn
Retired Team Member
 
Posts: 7050
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:32 am
Location: Off Duty
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (1) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (15)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:18 am

jakewilliams wrote:I tried to look up this info, but because of starting positions in XML, I couldn't do quick math based on the number of territories. I'm game to do this research if someone can show me a quick way to look through the XML and figure it out. I may even be game for the long way, but I'm certainly not excited to do it.


Jake, as MrBenn said, the first step is to have a complete list of those maps, if you want i can help you to find them during this weekend. Grab me if you see me online ;)

Nobodies - Joe :mrgreen:

Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
show
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class thenobodies80
 
Posts: 5558
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:30 am
Medals: 70
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Bot Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
General Achievement (8) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (17)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Dako on Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:58 am

It is good that foundry people are participating in this. I would so love to see unbalanced starting positions to be fixed.
Image
User avatar
Brigadier Dako
 
Posts: 3948
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:07 am
Location: St. Petersburg, Russia
Medals: 117
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (14) General Achievement (24)
Clan Achievement (21) General Contribution (20)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:24 am

I've seen Draknor and Solar System mentioned already. Any others?
Sketchblog [Update 07/25/11]: http://indyhelixsketch.blogspot.com/
Living in Japan [Update 07/17/11]: http://mirrorcountryih.blogspot.com/
Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: viewtopic.php?f=241&t=116575
User avatar
Cook Industrial Helix
 
Posts: 3469
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:49 pm
Location: California
Medals: 36
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (3)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)
Training Achievement (1) Map Contribution (5) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (3)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby #1_stunna on Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:31 am

Cairns Coral Coast
12:17:31 ‹Pixar› im gonna be fappin to that all night long
10:59:12 ‹rhp 1› holy hell... that did it.. I pissed myself
15:15:52 ‹Ace Rimmer› Sackett58, I think I may get some action this weekend
15:16:05 ‹Sackett58› Right hand or left Ace?
User avatar
Major #1_stunna
 
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:31 pm
Location: Muleshoe
Medals: 55
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (4) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (5) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (2)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:47 am

Queen_Herpes wrote:Second, the dice aren't that predictable. On maps like Solar System and Draknor, I've gone first my fair share of the time. Some of those first turns result in winning 2 or even 3 territories from my opponent. Other first turns result in winning 0 territories. I play my fair share of 1v1 as well. I like the challenge that it brings to go second and have the opponent take one or more territories from me. I win a fair share of those, but, yes, ultimately the player who goes first wins - no matter which map it is. Typically an inexperienced player or a player new to a map will be the one to lose when going first - on any map.


I agree the dice are not predictable, but I would say that on average, this makes it more unfair. I disagree with your statement that regardless of the map, the first player wins. Sure if you are playing an experienced player, but if you put two experienced players together on an unfair map, I feel it's more likely that the player who gets the first turn wins, which is unfair. On a fair map, I think the second player has an equal shot at winning (depending on dice/drop of course).

Queen_Herpes wrote:There are maps that should see a reduction. Ridiculously large maps like Stalingrad, WWII Europe, etc. On those maps, there are simply too many armies awarded tot he player who goes first.


I don't play those large maps enough to have enough insight. I'd love to get other opinions from players who play those maps.

Queen_Herpes wrote:What I would like to see is some kind of coding that prevents multi-territory continent bonuses to be handed out on the drop. One example would be any continental bonus on the Classic map. Another example would be any continental bonus or capitals bonus on BeNeLux.


Me too, but that would be a separate suggestion, or tangential to what I'm doing here.
User avatar
Captain Ace Rimmer
 
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:22 pm
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (9) Map Contribution (1)
Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (4)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:51 am

MrBenn wrote:If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.

What would be useful is to get a complete list of maps that are impacted by this, and the location of any proposed starting neutrals (remember that these will have to be in the same place in every single game on the map).


I'm working on this. I'll probably have a list up early next week.

Jake
User avatar
Captain Ace Rimmer
 
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:22 pm
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (9) Map Contribution (1)
Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (4)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby trapyoung on Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:21 am

MrBenn wrote:If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.


Is there anyway to code that the first round deployments for every player are equal to their initial territory drop. So if every player is dropped 15 territories and then Player 1 takes 1 territory from Player 3 and drops them to 14, Player 3's deployment for the turn will still be 5 armies? That would be a simple XML fix and not require neutrals to be inserted in various maps nor require selecting a permanent neutral territory for each map.
Colonel trapyoung
 
Posts: 1061
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:25 pm
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (9)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:45 am

trapyoung wrote:
MrBenn wrote:If I'm right, you're suggesting that starting neutrals be added to maps which currently have a "non-golden" number of starting territories. The other thing to consider is that on some maps, two or three starting neutrals will need to be added to mitigate an unfair drop.


Is there anyway to code that the first round deployments for every player are equal to their initial territory drop. So if every player is dropped 15 territories and then Player 1 takes 1 territory from Player 3 and drops them to 14, Player 3's deployment for the turn will still be 5 armies? That would be a simple XML fix and not require neutrals to be inserted in various maps nor require selecting a permanent neutral territory for each map.


I agree with this perspective from trapyoung. If I understand it correctly, he wants everyone to be given the same number of armies in round one, regardless of whether they go first, second, or third. This would prevent, IMO, completely redoing every map out there that has a perceived imbalance of territories.

I say "perceived imbalance of territories" because I don't think we will ever come up with the right number of territories to start with on any given map. Understanding that in 1v1 a player-who-goes-first starts with 15 territories then reduces his enemy to 14 territories has then subjected his enemy to a loss of one army. However, what about the imbalance in a game where both players start with 14 territories? The benefit still leans towards the player-who-goes-first. Assuming victorious round one dice (which we are assuming throughout this discussion...and I believe that is a huge-leap-assumption), the player-who-goes-first now has 15 territories and player2 (with either 13 or 14 territories) is put in the difficult position of necessity to knock player-who-goes-first down from 15 to 14 (and increase his own territories up to 14 or 15). Similarly, if player-who-goes-first gains two territories in round one (up to 16 from 14), player2 is at an even greater disadvantage.

All that being said, I believe that trapyoung has a better solution. Give all players the same number of round1 armies. I might even go so far as to suggest that in round one no bonuses are awarded to any player who is dropped a bonus, but, I think trapyoung's suggestion is good enough for now.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006

This link is the best way to make new players feel welcome...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006
User avatar
Lieutenant Queen_Herpes
 
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Right Here. Look into my eyes.
Medals: 29
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (1)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:46 am

Trap's suggestion is something I think that is outside of this suggestion, and something more complicated than revisiting and updating older XMLs. However, it might find a home in a new topic.


--Andy
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class AndyDufresne
Retired Administrator
 
Posts: 25539
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo
Medals: 20
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) General Achievement (4) General Contribution (2)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby trapyoung on Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:55 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Trap's suggestion is something I think that is outside of this suggestion, and something more complicated than revisiting and updating older XMLs. However, it might find a home in a new topic.


--Andy


I was just trying to determine whether there were multiple ways to address this problem that Jake and others have noted. So I'm just spitballing at the moment. I think this would be particularly useful in games like Waterloo where a 1v1 gives a deploy of around 10 (ignoring bonuses that might be dropped) and with the use of bombardments and hot dice, the second players deploy could be decreased to something like 6 before their first move.

I really viewed this topic as indicating a problem prevalent on certain maps and then if there is enough interest that warrants inquiry then a solution can be negotiated and implemented so I can start another topic if necessary but my first post was really regarding the viability of such a resolution
Colonel trapyoung
 
Posts: 1061
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:25 pm
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (9)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:23 am

trapyoung wrote:I was just trying to determine whether there were multiple ways to address this problem that Jake and others have noted. So I'm just spitballing at the moment. I think this would be particularly useful in games like Waterloo where a 1v1 gives a deploy of around 10 (ignoring bonuses that might be dropped) and with the use of bombardments and hot dice, the second players deploy could be decreased to something like 6 before their first move.

I really viewed this topic as indicating a problem prevalent on certain maps and then if there is enough interest that warrants inquiry then a solution can be negotiated and implemented so I can start another topic if necessary but my first post was really regarding the viability of such a resolution


You sound like a f*cking lawyer with all that talk. :lol:

Queen_Herpes wrote:All that being said, I believe that trapyoung has a better solution. Give all players the same number of round1 armies. I might even go so far as to suggest that in round one no bonuses are awarded to any player who is dropped a bonus, but, I think trapyoung's suggestion is good enough for now.


This may be a better option for 1v1, especially on larger maps. I don't typically play large maps on 1v1, so I don't have any experience on them to draw from. However, we still have problems on certain maps where you drop 12 or 15 territories on 4p. The rule would have to apply to all players' first turn in games that are not 1v1.

AndyDufresne wrote:Trap's suggestion is something I think that is outside of this suggestion, and something more complicated than revisiting and updating older XMLs. However, it might find a home in a new topic.


If there is a consensus that this is a better idea, it will potentially take longer to implement, as this would require an XML engine change via lack, not a simple change to XML via the Foundry. That's why I approached it this way.
User avatar
Captain Ace Rimmer
 
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:22 pm
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (9) Map Contribution (1)
Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (4)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Queen_Herpes on Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:08 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Trap's suggestion is something I think that is outside of this suggestion, and something more complicated than revisiting and updating older XMLs. However, it might find a home in a new topic.


--Andy


I'm all about an easy solution, but I'm not necessarily on board with the original suggestion by Jakewilliams based on reasons already mentioned. It would fundamentally change gameplay on a number of maps. In the end, will it improve gameplay on those maps? If this is to be investigated I think one map should be attempted on a beta-basis. This would need to be a map played by a lot of players and chosen frequently to be played. The original version, if kept open at the same time the beta version is being trialed, could also be played for comparison.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006

This link is the best way to make new players feel welcome...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006
User avatar
Lieutenant Queen_Herpes
 
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Right Here. Look into my eyes.
Medals: 29
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (1)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:12 am

Alright, due to that nice... Hm, "vent" by trap in GD, i feel like pulling this up again. I really don't see a downside to older maps being updated to make them more "fair" on round 1.

Has any list of maps come up that the drop is set on 12/15/18?
Image
User avatar
Sergeant TheForgivenOne
 
Posts: 5154
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:27 pm
Location: Lost somewhere in the snow. HELP ME
Medals: 83
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (4) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (14) Clan Achievement (7)
General Contribution (11)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:26 am

Still working on the list, I'll try to finish it this coming week.
User avatar
Captain Ace Rimmer
 
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:22 pm
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (9) Map Contribution (1)
Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (4)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby Ace Rimmer on Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:56 pm

OK, so I have my spreadsheet made with all the information (hopefully all correct).

Questions to pose:

1. Is a 12/15 terit drop an advantage in a multiplayer (3+) non-team game? I would say no as the first player can't take the bonus from all the other players, so it is not a large advantage like it is in 1v1 or team games
2. Is there an upper limit where it no longer makes a difference? For example, in a 4p Battle of Actium game, you start with 24 territories each. Would moving this down to 23 (causing you to drop 7 instead of 8) make a large difference?
3. What about games where you get 12 for a quads game? Is that considered a problem?

Link to my spreadsheet (probably requires a google docs account): http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

red & bold = non-magic number
blue & bold = deviates from the estimated math due to coded starting positions
x/y in cell = different starting number for 2/3 players due to coded starting positions
User avatar
Captain Ace Rimmer
 
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:22 pm
Medals: 72
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (9) Map Contribution (1)
Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (4)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby natty dread on Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:15 pm

1. I'd say it can be... the current foundry guidelines are to optimize drops for all player numbers.

2. Well if it's something like 9 vs 10 troops then it probably won't make a difference

3. yes, I'd say so.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class natty dread
 
Posts: 13324
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: just plain fucked
Medals: 49
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:48 am

Great work Jake!

In a multiplayer non team game an unfair starts is less important because, if a player is in the lead, then the others tend to attack the leader. So, with a 12/15 territories the first player could take an advantage, but it won't be kept for so long. ;)
Usually maps with 72+ territories give an advantage to the player who goes first in any case (specially in a 1vs1). For example if you start first and you deploy 9 or more troops in a single territory there's no way , except horrible dice, that your oppponent will start the game with the same number of troops to deploy. In any case, if i remember correctly, the old limit was Waterloo (104).

Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
show
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class thenobodies80
 
Posts: 5558
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:30 am
Medals: 70
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Bot Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
General Achievement (8) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (17)

Re: Revamp older map XML for fair drops

Postby lord voldemort on Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:55 am

quads drops of 12 are well unfair...waterloo comes to mind off the top of my head
Image
User avatar
Lieutenant lord voldemort
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:39 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Medals: 66
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (4) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (13) Tournament Contribution (8) General Contribution (3)

Next

Return to Archived Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Login