Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

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Want "Fog of War" to really "Fog up" ("?")?

Yes, please "Fog up" (place a "?") in the number of regions category.
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No, keep "Fog of War" as it is.
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Total votes : 22

Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby Queen_Herpes on Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:55 pm

The new integrated system which displays game player's number of regions, number of armies, and number of spoils has a flaw. When the game is foggy (Fog-of-War has been chosen) the number of territories is sunny (not foggy) and visible to opponents.
Concise description:
  • Fog-up the number of regions when Fog-of-War is chosen as a game setting.

Specifics:
  • Make Fog of War how it should be, and used to be for non-script users
  • Prevent opponents from knowing how many regions you have
  • Put the work in the hands of the opponent to scroll the Game Log for your number of regions

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
  • This will make the game truly fog-of-war as it was before the new integration was added to the game board. While certain scripts might allow players to know how many regions an opponent has in fog-of-war, it would be vastly more interesting and challenging to have the number of regions fogged up by the actual game interface.
  • Keeps Fog-Of-War truly foggy. By allowing us to see our opponents number of regions, we can intuitively determine how many armies they will receive on their turn. Certainly some players may start a game with a bonus, but we can see that in the game log. If we're required to look to the game log for data about bonuses, then put us in the position of determining the number of teritories by looking at the Game Log as well.
  • xxxxxxx
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby yeti_c on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:09 pm

No - you probably only want this so you can farm people who aren't as experienced as you.

C.
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby Choco on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:10 pm

Either fog the log, or let it be as it already is.
There should be no disadvantages for not knowing about the scripts, for that just gives you a really cheap advantage.
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby Queen_Herpes on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:16 pm

yeti_c wrote:No - you probably only want this so you can farm people who aren't as experienced as you.

C.


Fail on your part. This has nothing to do with farming. I want the honus put on the player to count or check the log. That's what I had to do before this interface was added and I think it is good to require players to be more actively involved in the game in this manner.
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby Queen_Herpes on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:18 pm

Choco wrote:Either fog the log, or let it be as it already is.
There should be no disadvantages for not knowing about the scripts, for that just gives you a really cheap advantage.


IT isn't about NOT KNOWING ABOUT SCRIPTS. Some players, like me, cannot use scripts.

This suggestion is about making players do the work to determine the number of territories in a fog game.

Fogging the log is a separate suggestion and I support it.
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby karelpietertje on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:37 pm

Queen_Herpes, both the replyers in this thread are right.
This change would only make that there is an advantage for those who use BOB over those who cannot use BOB, like you.
Imagine a freestyle terminator fogged game, where the player with BOB knows in 2 seconds if his target has another territory elsewhere, and can start moving immediately, where a player without BOB has to check the log of last round to decide if he can go for it.

So as a matter of fact, this wíll be about some people knowing about scripts and other not knowing, or not being able to use, them.
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby Queen_Herpes on Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:40 pm

karelpietertje wrote:Queen_Herpes, both the replyers in this thread are right.
This change would only make that there is an advantage for those who use BOB over those who cannot use BOB, like you.
Imagine a freestyle terminator fogged game, where the player with BOB knows in 2 seconds if his target has another territory elsewhere, and can start moving immediately, where a player without BOB has to check the log of last round to decide if he can go for it.

So as a matter of fact, this wíll be about some people knowing about scripts and other not knowing, or not being able to use, them.


And again, NO, that is not what this is about. If there is an issue with speed freestyle being problematic to have to scroll, then why aren't you watching the game when it happens? You wouldn't need to scroll to the game log as you watch your enemies region count increase. Your point is moot anyways. This takes one aspect of the challenge and one aspect of the fun out of the game. When you play the board game you have to finger count your opponents territories. In this version, you can finger count with the log and track it with a post to yourself in the game chat (if need be.)

And if speed freestyle fog is the only problem, then there should be a separate option to fog the region count OR speed freestyle fog should keep the count on there.
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby karelpietertje on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:02 am

Of course there is an issue in speed freestyle games!
In those, it happens that 2 players are rushing to kill a third one, and you are waiting with another player to be the one who takes the last territory.
So as the targetted player is getting killed at about 2 territories per second, I will have a great advantage with my BOB, who tells me exactly what the target is at.
My competitor, who is also waiting, has no BOB, so he has no way of keeping up with the kill.
I have an unfair advantage.

And in the other gametypes, taking away the stats still means some need less time to decide what to do, and others have to take more time for it.
This is just unfair.

I know it wasn't about these scripts when you thought of this suggestion, but you just can't ignore the fact that the scripts will be there.

Well, I guess we can't agree about this. We can just let the topic die like 90% of the sugs in this forum. :roll:
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby Queen_Herpes on Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:07 am

karelpietertje wrote:Of course there is an issue in speed freestyle games!
In those, it happens that 2 players are rushing to kill a third one, and you are waiting with another player to be the one who takes the last territory.
So as the targetted player is getting killed at about 2 territories per second, I will have a great advantage with my BOB, who tells me exactly what the target is at.
My competitor, who is also waiting, has no BOB, so he has no way of keeping up with the kill.
I have an unfair advantage.

And in the other gametypes, taking away the stats still means some need less time to decide what to do, and others have to take more time for it.
This is just unfair.

I know it wasn't about these scripts when you thought of this suggestion, but you just can't ignore the fact that the scripts will be there.

Well, I guess we can't agree about this. We can just let the topic die like 90% of the sugs in this forum. :roll:


But its been played that way for so LONG. I don't have scripts and I play and win freestyle games. Even Freestyle fog games...so why now should everyone have a "pointer" that relatively few players held in the past? I get it that it is an unfair advantage, but that unfair advantage has been around for a while and there are still others in the scripts that make the game "unfair" as you might say. To me...it makes the game more challenging. I like playing a speed game against a player who has clickable maps. I feel like a stronger player for having beaten them. I also like to NOT KNOW how many regions my opponents hold because I believe that challenge is a GOOD ONE. I feel better after having won a game where I didn't know how many regions my opponents held. Now, it is boringly easy and I know exactly when I need to attack my opponent to knock them down below an army threshold. The same goes for them...I'm just wondering why bonuses are fogged because that is still comething you can intuitively determine from the game log.
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Unknown number of regions in fog-game stats

Postby nietzsche on Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:31 am

In games with fog, you can easily see how many regions a player has by looking at the stats, even though you don't actually 'see' his regions.

In the past, you couldn't know, you had to read the log and count or guess how many regions any player had. This was more interesting because players who were actually paying attention to a game had and advantage. Now in an escalating game, a player could just mindlessly getting a card every turn, and by round 7-8 if he starts to pay attention at the stats and just looks at a player with few regions to target for the cards.

It was way more interesting when you had to count from reading the log.
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Re: Unknown number of regions in fog-game stats

Postby maxfaraday on Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:51 am

I voted no.

But;
on a sidenote, fow would make more sense if the log didn't show when other players conquer territories when you can't see it.
That plus your suggestion could be interresting, even though I like the way it works now.
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Re: Unknown number of regions in fog-game stats

Postby TheForgivenOne on Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:26 am

From my knowledge, this was actually discussed when the feature came out (I think you may know this, but just pointing this out to those who weren't around).
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Re: Unknown number of regions in fog-game stats

Postby agentcom on Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:58 pm

maxfaraday wrote:I voted no.

But;
on a sidenote, fow would make more sense if the log didn't show when other players conquer territories when you can't see it.
That plus your suggestion could be interresting, even though I like the way it works now.


I agree. If you're going to hide the number of territories, then hide them completely. Don't show conquered territs in game log. I would support it if this was what you were suggesting.

Of course, the next question is whether you should also hide in Game log how many reinforcements a person is getting.

You could even go one step farther and add an option where you can't even see how many armies are on the territory next to you. I would maybe call these "BLACKOUT" games or something. So the Start A Game options would be Fog of War: No Yes Blackout.

So, I support limiting the information available but only if you go beyond your current suggestion. I would hate to play fog games where I had to go back through and manually count up territories. Also, how long would it take until someone just wrote a script that puts the information that you want to hide back onto the page. I would bet it would happen within weeks of this change. People shouldn't get that kind of advantage just for being able to count or download a plug-in.
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Re: Unknown number of regions in fog-game stats

Postby chapcrap on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:53 pm

Seems like a lot of this might be covered here: viewtopic.php?f=535&t=138522
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Re: Unknown number of regions in fog-game stats

Postby agentcom on Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:00 pm

chapcrap wrote:Seems like a lot of this might be covered here: viewtopic.php?f=535&t=138522


That suggestion talks about adding MORE information to game log. We are proposing having LESS information available. Also, that forum has Lack saying that he's considering doing something about it way back in 2006. Considering that it hasn't happened and considering that this suggestion is almost the opposite of that one, I would say that we should continue discussion on it here.

As I said before, would support this suggestion if it went farther, but don't like it as it is.
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Re: Unknown number of regions in fog-game stats

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:41 am

So basically you want to give players with BOB another advantage and make the game harder for n00bs?

Has it ever occurred to you that the majority of players might not want to sit and count the log? I would support this if it kept a blank log completely. Hide all information:

1) make all turns last exactly 24 hours so you don't even know whether someone took their turn or not
2) stop reporting whether or not someone attacked or reinforced

Obviously 2 is the better suggestion than 1, but forcing players to count the log is lame.
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Re: Unknown number of regions in fog-game stats

Postby agentcom on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:39 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:So basically you want to give players with BOB another advantage and make the game harder for n00bs?

Has it ever occurred to you that the majority of players might not want to sit and count the log? I would support this if it kept a blank log completely. Hide all information:

1) make all turns last exactly 24 hours so you don't even know whether someone took their turn or not
2) stop reporting whether or not someone attacked or reinforced

Obviously 2 is the better suggestion than 1, but forcing players to count the log is lame.


Ooohhh, I didn't think of those ideas. That would be another cool addition to the Blackout settings or whatever I called it before.
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Re: Fog up # of regions in "Fog of War"

Postby JamesKer1 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:56 am

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