Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

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Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby L M S on Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:54 am

How about this for deferred troops....

Keep them in place (allow players to collect deferred troops) but let the computer randomly place them on the board one at a time at the end of the turn, so the player that missed cant decide where to use them. They still get their 'missed' troops but not where they necessarily wanted them making it less an incentive to miss intentionally.

and/or

Take it one step further if you like and open those troops up so the computer could give them to ANY player in the game....that'll discourage any intentional misses for sure.


tm 2012, L M S


Too out of the box?
Discuss.
Last edited by L M S on Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:40 pm

I don't think it will discourage misses at all.

I have NEVER EVER EVER decided: "it doesn't matter if I miss a turn, I still get deferred troops".

I have missed turns, but usually it's because I am trapped in the middle of Algonquin for a week and forgot to ask somebody to take over. All you are doing is punishing players for having a life, and that is a stupid option, no matter how it is implemented.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss

Postby L M S on Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Unfortunately there will be unintended consequences with any system DY. Problem is the current one is too easily manipulated by those who choose to miss, so a comprehensive solution needs to be invented. Not only that, it doesn't matter the reason for the miss, there should never be an advantage nor should there ever be the potential for an advantage due to a missed turn, which is why losing the troops altogether is a bad idea; therefore this idea.

Argue the merits of real life v CC life and all that all you want somewhere else....this thread is not about that, I agree real life happens; which is why I think the troops should still be deployed. My issue is being able to use two turns worth of troops in a single turn, you MUST concede that this can be a game changer.

My idea amounts to an "auto-pilot" troop deployment remedy in case the turn is missed for whatever reason...I'm not saying its the only way or even the right way but it is a NEW idea, the older ones seem to have no traction so I proposed this.
It might be a stupid idea and not thoroughly thought out yet, hence the thread to discuss it.

Something NEEDS to be done about it and arguing that real life happens is no longer valid.
Lets find a solution.....
....for the love of God, lets find a solution.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss

Postby chapcrap on Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:01 pm

I wouldn't have a problem with the random placement of troops after a missed turn. I think that's a good idea.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:20 pm

L M S wrote:Unfortunately there will be unintended consequences with any system DY. Problem is the current one is too easily manipulated by those who choose to miss, so a comprehensive solution needs to be invented. Not only that, it doesn't matter the reason for the miss, there should never be an advantage nor should there ever be the potential for an advantage due to a missed turn, which is why losing the troops altogether is a bad idea; therefore this idea.

Who chooses to miss? That is ridiculous. I don't think there is an advantage to missing a turn or even potential. There is only a definite disadvantage in not being able to attack.

Argue the merits of real life v CC life and all that all you want somewhere else....this thread is not about that, I agree real life happens; which is why I think the troops should still be deployed. My issue is being able to use two turns worth of troops in a single turn, you MUST concede that this can be a game changer.

No, I mustn't concede that for 2 reasons. a) It has never happened to me. b)all players at all times are able to use 2 turns worth of troops in a single turn. All you have to do is not attack the first turn. Since you can't even attack with deferred troops the turn you get them, I don't really have any idea what you are talking about.

My idea amounts to an "auto-pilot" troop deployment remedy in case the turn is missed for whatever reason...I'm not saying its the only way or even the right way but it is a NEW idea, the older ones seem to have no traction so I proposed this.
It might be a stupid idea and not thoroughly thought out yet, hence the thread to discuss it.

Something NEEDS to be done about it and arguing that real life happens is no longer valid.
Lets find a solution.....
....for the love of God, lets find a solution.


Auto-piloting troop deployment is a further punishment to what is already a heavily punished activity. Kudos for creativity and trying to find a solution, but there is no problem.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby L M S on Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:38 pm

I am not throwing stones at you only giving my opinion based on my 6 years of continuous CC membership and nearly 10,000 games played.

Oh but sir, there is a problem. If I were the only one talking about it there would be no problem, this subject has been reviewed ad-nauseum (sp?)...so clearly you are in the minority here.

There has never been a decent solution is all, one that will not completely take away the missed turn troops and at the same time make the intentional turn missers reconsider their plans.

I am advocating for the troops to be randomly deployed on the owners territories, not that they are lost completely. Essentially giving everyone on CC an 'Auto-Pilot' sitter only in the event they miss a turn, keeps it fair for the rest of the players in the game...the ones who took their turns or had a sitter while removing ANY incentive for someone to intentionally miss a turn(s)in the hopes of gaining an advantage. (this is my big problem, if you can solve this one I'll be happy to support you in every way....its the intentional ones that get my goat.)
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:18 pm

Why not just make intentional turn missing against the rules if it is a problem?

Also, why is turn missing a problem? It seems to me that it's only a problem because it sometimes results in a delay of game.

People have been complaining about bogrolling since the site started. I don't think that is a problem either. Just because the majority of people think something is a problem doesn't mean that it is. In the 1950s in Alabama, the majority of people thought blacks sitting at the front of the bus was a problem. The majority forcing its will upon the minority is just as bad as the other way round.

I refuse to believe there is a problem until a certain number of players admits that they use turn missing as their strategy. It is a silly strategy at best.

By the way, I realize you are not throwing stones. I don't take personal offense. As a turn-misser (the non-intentional type) I don't want any punishment for something that usually is beyond my control. If it is created, even as an option, there is a good chance I will end up playing it.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby chapcrap on Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:44 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Why not just make intentional turn missing against the rules if it is a problem?

How are you supposed to prove that it was intentional?
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:31 pm

chapcrap wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Why not just make intentional turn missing against the rules if it is a problem?

How are you supposed to prove that it was intentional?


The same way they prove intentional deadbeating.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby L M S on Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:36 pm

chapcrap wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Why not just make intentional turn missing against the rules if it is a problem?

How are you supposed to prove that it was intentional?



Believe me I have tried to get this enforced, with what I thought was some pretty hard evidence however, it all comes down to one guys word against another's.
This is not the point though, lets not get into that old stuff, it doesn't matter.

Lets make a system that prevents this from happening at the same time doesn't impune the Real Life turn misser too badly. Honestly though if you cant be bothered to take 30 seconds out of 24 hours to throw down a turn or get a sitter...... I know there are very extreme examples one could cite, but really how many times a year does your Dad have a sudden heart attack or something totally legit like that where there is ZERO advanced warning of a POTENTIAL turn miss.

Removing the potential for abuse is what this idea is intended to solve...thats all.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby Royal Panda on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:03 pm

I like the idea, it doesn't specifically punish missers (still gives them the troops they missed out on) but makes it so there is no real chance of an advantage being had except by sheer coincidence/accident... certainly enough to discourage intentional misses!

DY - whatever you may think there ARE intentional misses taking place that can give an advantage to the person that misses. Unintentional misses can also occasionally lead to an advantage. I've unintentionally missed a turn before and it won me the game.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:51 pm

How does missing a turn lead to you winning the game?

It's like if you said: damn all those people who aren't joining games, they are causing me to lose. I feel like this topic is the twilight zone.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby MNDuke on Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:28 am

One thing I want to clarify in this system, would the troops be randomly placed at the time of the missed turn or not until the player takes their turn again. I would have to assume that it would have to occur immediately at the time of the missed turn. That way in essence, its almost as if the player didn't miss the turn at all and preserves the turn order in which the troops would have been placed initially, instead of doubling up the number of troops placed a turn later.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:45 am

L M S wrote:I am not throwing stones at you only giving my opinion based on my 6 years of continuous CC membership and nearly 10,000 games played.


What percentage of those 10 000 games resulted in a victory for a player who deliberately missed turns?

If you want, leave out the 1v1 games. I know they make up half of CC, but we can pretend they don't exist. Also, if the game is really long, and the missed turn is done early, it won't really effect the outcome of the game, but you can count those anyway. If it is higher than 1%, I will agree that there is a problem.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby Namliam on Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:09 am

I have seen intentional misses swing the game in the other direction. It happens, weather we like to admit it or not. No, you can't attack with deferred troops, but you can stack the weakest player on your team preventing a kill. Random placement of deferred troops is an interesting idea, and well worth looking into further. As far as I can tell, the only players that would be against trying this out are the ones who occasionally miss turns to gain tactical advantages in games. Just because you've never seen it happen DY, doesn't mean it isn't out there.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby L M S on Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:38 am

Yes Duke, I agree that would be the best way to auto deploy them. I'm not even sure its possible however.

And Doom, I havent counted them, all I know is that it does happen, often enough. You don't play many team games do you? I would bet that it comes into play more often then (unconfirmed).

Why are you so adamant about it is my question? If CC is simply a game to you and you don't care weather or not you miss turns....why should the majority back off for the individual?
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss

Postby Commander9 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:29 pm

chapcrap wrote:I wouldn't have a problem with the random placement of troops after a missed turn. I think that's a good idea.


+1.
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby agentcom on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:03 pm

I have never understood the argument that missing a turn can provide an advantage. I have heard it from many people including people that I greatly respect on this site. Perhaps in some extremely narrow circumstances, you can gain an advantage by waiting a turn and dropping a bigger stack on a partner. But I can't think of when this would actually yield a statistical advantage. When you miss a turn (depending on maps and settings), you miss an opportunity to attack, reinforce, card, and get auto-deploys. When you come back you are forced to dump any deferred troops on 1 territory. I have never used this strategy. I have never been in a situation where it would be beneficial. And I have never seen anybody use this strategy against me.

If I had to guess, I would say that some people who have played a ton of games have been in a situation where they just couldn't counter those extra troops. Whether those extra troops came the turn before (i.e. the person didn't miss) or the current turn, they wouldn't have been able to do anything. It's probably a combination of deferred troops dropping and then getting bad dice. Instead of seeing it as bad luck, these players blame the deferred troops. That's my guess anyway.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby L M S on Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:31 am

agentcom wrote:I have never understood the argument that missing a turn can provide an advantage. I have heard it from many people including people that I greatly respect on this site. Perhaps in some extremely narrow circumstances, you can gain an advantage by waiting a turn and dropping a bigger stack on a partner. But I can't think of when this would actually yield a statistical advantage. When you miss a turn (depending on maps and settings), you miss an opportunity to attack, reinforce, card, and get auto-deploys. When you come back you are forced to dump any deferred troops on 1 territory. I have never used this strategy. I have never been in a situation where it would be beneficial. And I have never seen anybody use this strategy against me.

If I had to guess, I would say that some people who have played a ton of games have been in a situation where they just couldn't counter those extra troops. Whether those extra troops came the turn before (i.e. the person didn't miss) or the current turn, they wouldn't have been able to do anything. It's probably a combination of deferred troops dropping and then getting bad dice. Instead of seeing it as bad luck, these players blame the deferred troops. That's my guess anyway.


in a team game it can be a killer.
here's a current example right here:
hairy didn't miss on purpose but it still gave us a huge advantage when he came back, enough to turn the tide in our favor.

Game 10688199
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby Royal Panda on Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:22 am

L M S wrote:
agentcom wrote:I have never understood the argument that missing a turn can provide an advantage. I have heard it from many people including people that I greatly respect on this site. Perhaps in some extremely narrow circumstances, you can gain an advantage by waiting a turn and dropping a bigger stack on a partner. But I can't think of when this would actually yield a statistical advantage. When you miss a turn (depending on maps and settings), you miss an opportunity to attack, reinforce, card, and get auto-deploys. When you come back you are forced to dump any deferred troops on 1 territory. I have never used this strategy. I have never been in a situation where it would be beneficial. And I have never seen anybody use this strategy against me.

If I had to guess, I would say that some people who have played a ton of games have been in a situation where they just couldn't counter those extra troops. Whether those extra troops came the turn before (i.e. the person didn't miss) or the current turn, they wouldn't have been able to do anything. It's probably a combination of deferred troops dropping and then getting bad dice. Instead of seeing it as bad luck, these players blame the deferred troops. That's my guess anyway.


in a team game it can be a killer.
here's a current example right here:
hairy didn't miss on purpose but it still gave us a huge advantage when he came back, enough to turn the tide in our favor.

Game 10688199


How did I know that was going to be a map like PR? Happened to me before as well. Awhile ago but I remember it because I very rarely miss turns, and this wasn't on purpose. Again though it completely swung the game in our favour.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby agentcom on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:36 am

L M S wrote:
agentcom wrote:I have never understood the argument that missing a turn can provide an advantage. I have heard it from many people including people that I greatly respect on this site. Perhaps in some extremely narrow circumstances, you can gain an advantage by waiting a turn and dropping a bigger stack on a partner. But I can't think of when this would actually yield a statistical advantage. When you miss a turn (depending on maps and settings), you miss an opportunity to attack, reinforce, card, and get auto-deploys. When you come back you are forced to dump any deferred troops on 1 territory. I have never used this strategy. I have never been in a situation where it would be beneficial. And I have never seen anybody use this strategy against me.

If I had to guess, I would say that some people who have played a ton of games have been in a situation where they just couldn't counter those extra troops. Whether those extra troops came the turn before (i.e. the person didn't miss) or the current turn, they wouldn't have been able to do anything. It's probably a combination of deferred troops dropping and then getting bad dice. Instead of seeing it as bad luck, these players blame the deferred troops. That's my guess anyway.


in a team game it can be a killer.
here's a current example right here:
hairy didn't miss on purpose but it still gave us a huge advantage when he came back, enough to turn the tide in our favor.

Game 10688199


I still don't see how those 4 troops benefited you more on the turn after than on the turn before. Had they been there the turn before (and you got the same dice), you could have taken the same territories a turn earlier. I don't know if there was a bonus at issue there, but you either could have collected the bonus or possibly broke one of the other team's bonuses a turn earlier.
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Re: Another Deferred Troops Option to Discuss, 'Auto-Pilot?'

Postby agentcom on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:44 am

Pander88uk wrote:
L M S wrote:
agentcom wrote:I have never understood the argument that missing a turn can provide an advantage. I have heard it from many people including people that I greatly respect on this site. Perhaps in some extremely narrow circumstances, you can gain an advantage by waiting a turn and dropping a bigger stack on a partner. But I can't think of when this would actually yield a statistical advantage. When you miss a turn (depending on maps and settings), you miss an opportunity to attack, reinforce, card, and get auto-deploys. When you come back you are forced to dump any deferred troops on 1 territory. I have never used this strategy. I have never been in a situation where it would be beneficial. And I have never seen anybody use this strategy against me.

If I had to guess, I would say that some people who have played a ton of games have been in a situation where they just couldn't counter those extra troops. Whether those extra troops came the turn before (i.e. the person didn't miss) or the current turn, they wouldn't have been able to do anything. It's probably a combination of deferred troops dropping and then getting bad dice. Instead of seeing it as bad luck, these players blame the deferred troops. That's my guess anyway.


in a team game it can be a killer.
here's a current example right here:
hairy didn't miss on purpose but it still gave us a huge advantage when he came back, enough to turn the tide in our favor.

Game 10688199


How did I know that was going to be a map like PR? Happened to me before as well. Awhile ago but I remember it because I very rarely miss turns, and this wasn't on purpose. Again though it completely swung the game in our favour.
Game 5815311


Same comment as above. The winning team was fortunate enough with their dice to survive a missed turn. Of course, when the player came back and got the troops that he could have placed down the previous turn, the winning team was able to capitalize further on the good dice/fortune they had in previous turns.

It just seems to me that people think that a missed turn should result in a loss. They get upset when someone misses a turn and the team still wins the game. If that's what you want than suggest that CC boot players after 1 missed turn rather than 3. But I think the current system is already harsh enough on players that miss turns: they can't spread deployment, attack with deferred troops, get a card, reinforce or collect autodeploy for the turn that they missed. Bad luck can happen. Just because a team gets good enough dice/cards/drop to survive a missed turn, doesn't mean that deferred troops are the problem.

Further changes to deferred troops would almost ensure that a player who missed a turn lost the game. I wish someone would do an analysis among equally ranked teams of how often the team that misses the most turns loses the game. I am certain that a missed turn more often than not results in a loss.
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