initial drops

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initial drops

Postby pmbannister on Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:07 am

I'm noticing that in an alarming # of games the initial drops are crazily unfair. Sure it's random but when someone drops an entire continent, they play first and it's unlimited troop movement well unless they're morons they quickly go on to win the game. It's not fun & it's really not fair. Can't you script in something that does not allow entire continent drops?
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Re: initial drops

Postby chapcrap on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:21 pm

That happens when you play 1v1 games on Classic. Try some different maps and games with more people.
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Re: initial drops

Postby Criticalwinner on Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:15 am

chapcrap wrote:That happens when you play 1v1 games on Classic. Try some different maps and games with more people.


+1
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Re: initial drops

Postby pmbannister on Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:57 am

you know what - I like playing the classic map and I like playing 1 vs 1. But typically on CC these matches are determined by the simple luck of the drop - it's absolutely stupid and is not the way a real game starts. All I'm saying is: random is fine but can't the drops be coded to be relatively fair handed?
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Re: initial drops

Postby agentcom on Tue May 01, 2012 1:11 am

pmbannister wrote:you know what - I like playing the classic map and I like playing 1 vs 1. But typically on CC these matches are determined by the simple luck of the drop - it's absolutely stupid and is not the way a real game starts. All I'm saying is: random is fine but can't the drops be coded to be relatively fair handed?


I'm not sure what you mean by "fair handed" but I can guess. The problem is that it would be way to hard to code a "fair" drop. If you want to play games on maps that have been written to strictly control the drop, then play Pelo, Feudal series, etc. Otherwise, suck it up and embrace the randomness. You will benefit from it as many times as you will suffer from it in the long run. And if you're finding that your drops are consistently leading to lost games, the problem is more likely in your play than the drop.
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Re: initial drops

Postby Renee_W on Fri May 04, 2012 10:52 am

chapcrap wrote:That happens when you play 1v1 games on Classic. Try some different maps and games with more people.


Happens on a lot of maps, recent example Game 11044056. Not playing 1v1 is a pretty extreme solution.
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Re: initial drops

Postby Renee_W on Fri May 04, 2012 11:20 am

agentcom wrote:You will benefit from it as many times as you will suffer from it in the long run.


IMO you suffer either way, what's fun about a win when you know your opponent never had a chance and it has nothing to do with your abilities? It's just a waste of time either way.
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Re: initial drops

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri May 04, 2012 2:06 pm

If you think a map has routinely imbalanced drops, I encourage you to stop by either Final Forge or the Viewing Gallery, as from time to time XMLs are adjusted to have more balanced drops. Some of our older maps suffer from this from time to time, but most new maps take drops into account pretty well!


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Re: initial drops

Postby agentcom on Fri May 04, 2012 6:12 pm

Renee_W wrote:
agentcom wrote:You will benefit from it as many times as you will suffer from it in the long run.


IMO you suffer either way, what's fun about a win when you know your opponent never had a chance and it has nothing to do with your abilities? It's just a waste of time either way.


At some point you just have to accept the randomness. This will happen in 1 v 1 games. Sometimes you are dropped a bonus; most of the time not. The foreseeable solutions I see are (1) make 1 territ from each continent neutral or (2) don't allow for certain combinations of drops.

(1) could be coded but takes territs out of play at the start of the game, across the board. Knowing this in a fog game could provide someone an advantage. I don't think that whether someone has read the XML for a map should give them this type of advantage.

(2) I think would be nightmarishly difficult to code.
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Re: initial drops

Postby Renee_W on Fri May 04, 2012 8:14 pm

agentcom wrote:(1) could be coded but takes territs out of play at the start of the game, across the board. Knowing this in a fog game could provide someone an advantage. I don't think that whether someone has read the XML for a map should give them this type of advantage.


Before assigning any territs to players

foreach(continent in continents)
{
if(continent.bonus < 1)
{
continue;
}
if(continent.bonus > 1 || continent.territories.count == 1)
{
continent.territories[random].owner = neutral;
}
}

agentcom wrote:(2) I think would be nightmarishly difficult to code.


That would depend on how complex a solution you use, and how much you seek to balance starts. I would imagine simply saying it sounds nightmarish to impliment would be a simple way to blow off a suggestion.
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Re: initial drops

Postby Renee_W on Sun May 13, 2012 10:56 pm

Game 11096670 Another one extremely lopsided.
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Re: initial drops

Postby greenoaks on Mon May 14, 2012 12:06 am

pmbannister wrote:you know what - I like playing the classic map and I like playing 1 vs 1. But typically on CC these matches are determined by the simple luck of the drop - it's absolutely stupid and is not the way a real game starts. All I'm saying is: random is fine but can't the drops be coded to be relatively fair handed?

but uneven drops ARE how real games start
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Re: initial drops

Postby agentcom on Mon May 14, 2012 8:24 pm

greenoaks wrote:
pmbannister wrote:you know what - I like playing the classic map and I like playing 1 vs 1. But typically on CC these matches are determined by the simple luck of the drop - it's absolutely stupid and is not the way a real game starts. All I'm saying is: random is fine but can't the drops be coded to be relatively fair handed?

but uneven drops ARE how real games start


I would love it if they implemented something like what happens in a certain board game where you can choose to manually select your territories. I don't care if we spend the first 40 rounds picking territs (or worse on hive). Maybe you could make those rounds of a shorter duration. It would be fun and avoid this whole problem.
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Re: initial drops

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:11 pm

pmbannister wrote:you know what - I like playing the classic map and I like playing 1 vs 1. But typically on CC these matches are determined by the simple luck of the drop - it's absolutely stupid and is not the way a real game starts. All I'm saying is: random is fine but can't the drops be coded to be relatively fair handed?


risk is simply not meant to be a 1v1 game. if you like 1v1 strategy games, play chess, checkers, stratego, shogun, xiangqi, shogi, etc.

risk is more based on diplomacy, in a game with more than 2 players, the players will balance each other out. although on CC that may not be always so apparent, it really depends on who you play with).
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Re: initial drops

Postby zimmah on Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:14 pm

agentcom wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
pmbannister wrote:you know what - I like playing the classic map and I like playing 1 vs 1. But typically on CC these matches are determined by the simple luck of the drop - it's absolutely stupid and is not the way a real game starts. All I'm saying is: random is fine but can't the drops be coded to be relatively fair handed?

but uneven drops ARE how real games start


I would love it if they implemented something like what happens in a certain board game where you can choose to manually select your territories. I don't care if we spend the first 40 rounds picking territs (or worse on hive). Maybe you could make those rounds of a shorter duration. It would be fun and avoid this whole problem.


well, adding an option to manually pick territories (really pick, not just deploy troops manualy) would be nice. but it would indeed require the first X rounds (where X is approximately territory count / number of players) to be purely claiming territories.

they could also make it a speed-game only option, but i wouldn't mind either way.
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