[Rules/MED] Cheaters should be stripped of medals [Rejected]

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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby chapcrap on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:58 pm

Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

Current OP quoted.

Umm, what do you want discussed if you think there is already a concensus?
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby jghost7 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:31 pm

No matter how many times you stubbornly keep repeating a statement, it will not make it true. No consensus here.

Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:41 pm

chapcrap wrote:Umm, what do you want discussed if you think there is already a concensus?


Kind of a strange question. I think the suggestion should be moved up a notch, given that there seems to be a consensus and no clear objections. Do you have an objection, or are you prolonging this for some other reason?

Full disclosure Chapcrap- do you have an ulterior motive? Have you ever been caught, warned or noted by the Cheating and Abuse team?
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby jghost7 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:28 pm

Symmetry wrote:
... I think the suggestion should be moved up a notch, given that there seems to be a consensus and no clear objections. ...

Wow, you ARE thick.

Symmetry wrote:...Full disclosure Chapcrap- do you have an ulterior motive? Have you ever been caught, warned or noted by the Cheating and Abuse team?

Irrelevant. If he objects, then he objects. It would be his opinion, and his right to express it. Also, personally trying to attack others who do not agree with you will not help the topic advance either.
You need to let the suggestion develop, and quit bogarding the topic. You have made it plain that you do not count or listen to anyones objection to this suggestion. The suggestion team will be able to tell if it is to go or not without you constantly repeating your anthem of 'consensus and lack of objections' regardless of posts to the contrary.

Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:03 pm

jghost7 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
... I think the suggestion should be moved up a notch, given that there seems to be a consensus and no clear objections. ...

Wow, you ARE thick.

Symmetry wrote:...Full disclosure Chapcrap- do you have an ulterior motive? Have you ever been caught, warned or noted by the Cheating and Abuse team?

Irrelevant. If he objects, then he objects. It would be his opinion, and his right to express it. Also, personally trying to attack others who do not agree with you will not help the topic advance either.
You need to let the suggestion develop, and quit bogarding the topic. You have made it plain that you do not count or listen to anyones objection to this suggestion. The suggestion team will be able to tell if it is to go or not without you constantly repeating your anthem of 'consensus and lack of objections' regardless of posts to the contrary.

Thanks,

J


If he objects, I think it's a fair question to ask why he objects? No?

As always, please feel free to object to the suggestion, but if you still can't give a reason for your objection, I would suggest that you examine the general consensus in support of the suggestion, and find the part that you disagree with.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby jghost7 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:16 pm

Symmetry wrote:If he objects, I think it's a fair question to ask why he objects? No?

Sure, you can simply ask, ' Why do you object?', instead you chose to color it and create a loaded question. Now THAT is NOT ok.

Symmetry wrote:As always, please feel free to object to the suggestion, but if you still can't give a reason for your objection, I would suggest that you examine the general consensus in support of the suggestion, and find the part that you disagree with.

Plenty of objecting discourse has been provided. Feel free to examine them to remind yourself of the lack of general consensus of the suggestion.


Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby patrickaa317 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:24 pm

I object to this. Not a cheater. Have no reason to worry. Just think it's going to take a lot of time to research which medals were earned while cheating and which weren't.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:51 am

jghost7 wrote:No matter how many times you stubbornly keep repeating a statement, it will not make it true. No consensus here.

Thanks,

J
My stubbornness is mostly me asking you why you disagree. You've once again posted a message without any content.

I changed the OP, as per your demands, and yet you shift the goalposts.

What, now. do you want me to do in order for you to argue in good faith?
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:59 am

patrickaa317 wrote:I object to this. Not a cheater. Have no reason to worry. Just think it's going to take a lot of time to research which medals were earned while cheating and which weren't.


Fair enough- i was being a bit sneaky on that and directing the post toward Chappy- ChapCrap got noted for some very sus behaviour, and I was involved in pointing it out. He's currently under notice from the mods, and he's not happy that people are watching his behaviour.

That's me coming clean on that post. I hope ChapCrap is able to talk about what he has to gain or lose, or simply if he's able to come clean about what motivates his posts.

But cheers, Pat, I disagree, but at least you posted a point that can be discussed.

Why do you think it would take too long?
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby jghost7 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:36 am

Symmetry wrote:
jghost7 wrote:No matter how many times you stubbornly keep repeating a statement, it will not make it true. No consensus here.

Thanks,

J
My stubbornness is mostly me asking you why you disagree. You've once again posted a message without any content.

I changed the OP, as per your demands, and yet you shift the goalposts.

What, now. do you want me to do in order for you to argue in good faith?


How about addressing the concerns which you have yet to address. You are very good about trying to direct others back to the thread for points, yet you so conveniently ignore them when the content you so ardently seek is right there as well, sitting unaddressed. You misunderstand, I do not wish to argue with you. I will debate the soundness of this suggestion, but a debate will require participation from you that you have yet to provide. I do not want to have to keep repeating things to a person with selective hearing(per se) as I have done once already. Your alteration to the OP has not addressed any of the issues brought up thus far, and as such, I still await any points/justifications vs my previous points. If you decline to address them then it would not make any sense to countenance the flawed suggestion.

Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:08 am

jghost7 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jghost7 wrote:No matter how many times you stubbornly keep repeating a statement, it will not make it true. No consensus here.

Thanks,

J
My stubbornness is mostly me asking you why you disagree. You've once again posted a message without any content.

I changed the OP, as per your demands, and yet you shift the goalposts.

What, now. do you want me to do in order for you to argue in good faith?


How about addressing the concerns which you have yet to address. You are very good about trying to direct others back to the thread for points, yet you so conveniently ignore them when the content you so ardently seek is right there as well, sitting unaddressed. You misunderstand, I do not wish to argue with you. I will debate the soundness of this suggestion, but a debate will require participation from you that you have yet to provide. I do not want to have to keep repeating things to a person with selective hearing(per se) as I have done once already. Your alteration to the OP has not addressed any of the issues brought up thus far, and as such, I still await any points/justifications vs my previous points. If you decline to address them then it would not make any sense to countenance the flawed suggestion.

Thanks,

J


I can only ask you again- why do you object?

What are the objections you feel haven't been addressed?

I'm sorry, but I can only ask you to deal with me fairly.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby jghost7 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:39 am

Symmetry wrote:
jghost7 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jghost7 wrote:No matter how many times you stubbornly keep repeating a statement, it will not make it true. No consensus here.

Thanks,

J
My stubbornness is mostly me asking you why you disagree. You've once again posted a message without any content.

I changed the OP, as per your demands, and yet you shift the goalposts.

What, now. do you want me to do in order for you to argue in good faith?


How about addressing the concerns which you have yet to address. You are very good about trying to direct others back to the thread for points, yet you so conveniently ignore them when the content you so ardently seek is right there as well, sitting unaddressed. You misunderstand, I do not wish to argue with you. I will debate the soundness of this suggestion, but a debate will require participation from you that you have yet to provide. I do not want to have to keep repeating things to a person with selective hearing(per se) as I have done once already. Your alteration to the OP has not addressed any of the issues brought up thus far, and as such, I still await any points/justifications vs my previous points. If you decline to address them then it would not make any sense to countenance the flawed suggestion.

Thanks,

J

I can only ask you again- why do you object?

What are the objections you feel haven't been addressed?

I'm sorry, but I can only ask you to deal with me fairly.

Fairly? I have been more than fair. You have been purposely thick and intentionally have ignored or played down valid arguments, all the while maintaining the faulty assumptions of a general consensus and fully addressed concerns.

I will do you a solid and repost the links so you don't have to search for my content that you ignored. Perhaps this time you will take the time to properly address them.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=170171&start=75
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=170171&start=118

Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby agentcom on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:42 pm

Symmetry wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:I object to this. Not a cheater. Have no reason to worry. Just think it's going to take a lot of time to research which medals were earned while cheating and which weren't.


Fair enough- i was being a bit sneaky on that and directing the post toward Chappy- ChapCrap got noted for some very sus behaviour, and I was involved in pointing it out. He's currently under notice from the mods, and he's not happy that people are watching his behaviour.

That's me coming clean on that post. I hope ChapCrap is able to talk about what he has to gain or lose, or simply if he's able to come clean about what motivates his posts.

But cheers, Pat, I disagree, but at least you posted a point that can be discussed.

Why do you think it would take too long?


Symmetry, I don't think anyone here cares to hear your characterization of other people's behavior, your belief on what the mods are doing or your take on chap's emotional state.

Keep it civil and on topic. And for the love of God, address Jghost's points rather than repeating the line about there being a consensus. The fact that no one else is willing to do it makes me believe that there is far from a consensus.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby patrickaa317 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:17 pm

Symmetry wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:I object to this. Not a cheater. Have no reason to worry. Just think it's going to take a lot of time to research which medals were earned while cheating and which weren't.


Fair enough- i was being a bit sneaky on that and directing the post toward Chappy- ChapCrap got noted for some very sus behaviour, and I was involved in pointing it out. He's currently under notice from the mods, and he's not happy that people are watching his behaviour.

That's me coming clean on that post. I hope ChapCrap is able to talk about what he has to gain or lose, or simply if he's able to come clean about what motivates his posts.

But cheers, Pat, I disagree, but at least you posted a point that can be discussed.

Why do you think it would take too long?


It would take too long to count up how many unique wins may have been because of the cheating and whether or not there will be any change in medal status. A point reset or a giant asterisk permanently next to their name would be much more feasible.

Now for a question for you. Being as you haven't played a game for over 7 months, why are you so concerned with cheaters, stripping medals or the high profile cases involving some of the more well known players on the site, such as highlanderattack or chapcrap? I do not care for cheaters one bit but I don't spend 2% of the time chasing them and I actually play the game at hand and could be adversely affected by it. The only way you are affected by this is having a little more excitement in the forums.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby patrickaa317 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:20 pm

note, i only mentioned an abuse case against chapcrap as you mentioned you believed there was some mod work being done on that, I haven't seen anything outside of that and this shouldn't be taken as me thinking he has been abusing the site in anyway, show some proof in a separate thread if you want me to contemplate on that at all.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby stahrgazer on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:46 pm

Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby jghost7 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:54 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.


I don't think that this statement is accurate. Please specify which sport or event you are referring to. For example... Ben Johnson, a Canadian sprinter found positive for doping, had his 88 gold medal stripped, but still retains his 2 bronzes from 84, etc...

Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby QoH on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:03 pm

jghost7 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.


I don't think that this statement is accurate. Please specify which sport or event you are referring to. For example... Ben Johnson, a Canadian sprinter found positive for doping, had his 88 gold medal stripped, but still retains his 2 bronzes from 84, etc...

Thanks,

J

Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby patrickaa317 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:13 pm

QoH wrote:
jghost7 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.


I don't think that this statement is accurate. Please specify which sport or event you are referring to. For example... Ben Johnson, a Canadian sprinter found positive for doping, had his 88 gold medal stripped, but still retains his 2 bronzes from 84, etc...

Thanks,

J

Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Charges alone, no solid proof from what I understand.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby SirSebstar on Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:28 am

patrickaa317 wrote:
QoH wrote:Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Charges alone, no solid proof from what I understand.

You understood wrongly. There was so much proof he did not even bother to contest it, knowing that the proof would then have to be publisized. And that would be more damaging then anything else.

With regards to cc, real life has always been a bad choise to compare it with, but even so, the medals will likely go to people who have at one time or another also been convicted of substance abuse.... Not all medals from a lifelong struggle are forfieted when someone makes a single mistake(or gets caught only once), armstrong is an exceptional case.


I do not hear anybody anymore about a point reset. And although that idea has been shot out of the water by the VETO ;-) it is still a better way to deal with it then removing medals.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby darth emperor on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:59 am

SirSebstar wrote:I do not hear anybody anymore about a point reset. And although that idea has been shot out of the water by the VETO ;-) it is still a better way to deal with it then removing medals.

I'm not sure about all this of removing medals, but a point reset I don't see it as a good idea. It's a form, of the point dumping.... :roll: so someone who cheats by throwing their games, because they want to have less points, so the can take more points when they win (something i really don't understand but meh). So you are rewarding them for breaking the rules
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby QoH on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:37 am

SirSebstar wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
QoH wrote:Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Charges alone, no solid proof from what I understand.

You understood wrongly. There was so much proof he did not even bother to contest it, knowing that the proof would then have to be publisized. And that would be more damaging then anything else.


Are you kidding me? This shit has been going on for a few years now. It went to the US Supreme Court (I think) and everything! He definitely contested it.

I haven't read anything about it yet, but apparently they found enough proof.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Woodruff on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:13 pm

darth emperor wrote:
SirSebstar wrote:I do not hear anybody anymore about a point reset. And although that idea has been shot out of the water by the VETO ;-) it is still a better way to deal with it then removing medals.

I'm not sure about all this of removing medals, but a point reset I don't see it as a good idea. It's a form, of the point dumping.... :roll: so someone who cheats by throwing their games, because they want to have less points, so the can take more points when they win (something i really don't understand but meh). So you are rewarding them for breaking the rules


The reason a point reset is bad is because while it does punish the cheater, it also significantly punishes anyone the cheater plays after the point reset.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby patrickaa317 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:29 pm

QoH wrote:
SirSebstar wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
QoH wrote:Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Charges alone, no solid proof from what I understand.

You understood wrongly. There was so much proof he did not even bother to contest it, knowing that the proof would then have to be publisized. And that would be more damaging then anything else.


Are you kidding me? This shit has been going on for a few years now. It went to the US Supreme Court (I think) and everything! He definitely contested it.

I haven't read anything about it yet, but apparently they found enough proof.


The charges went through because he stopped contesting it because he said he was sick of all the accusations and having to prove himself innocent.

Here are some links to articles that never prove innocence nor guilt. The only facts I know are that he passed hundreds of tests, the USADA still brough accusations forth, he finally said, whatever I'm done with the tests, I no longer contest it.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/8299245/lance-armstrong-legacy
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/08/we-may-never-know-if-lance-armstrong-doped/261562/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2012/08/24/on-lance-armstrong/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2012/08/columnists-fans-divided-after-lance-armstrong-drops-drug-defence.html

None of these are sites I solely rely on for information, I just did a google search and found a crap ton of articles that continued to speculate on it.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby SirSebstar on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:03 pm

USADA would say this:
http://www.usada.org/media/sanction-armstrong8242012
anyways,their ruling is final, but what the truth is, i do not know.

now, how does this bear up with the op's premise? retroactively changing individual games (or medals or whatever) is just plain a bad idea
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