[Rules/MED] Cheaters should be stripped of their medals

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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby stahrgazer on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:46 pm

Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby jghost7 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:54 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.


I don't think that this statement is accurate. Please specify which sport or event you are referring to. For example... Ben Johnson, a Canadian sprinter found positive for doping, had his 88 gold medal stripped, but still retains his 2 bronzes from 84, etc...

Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby QoH on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:03 pm

jghost7 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.


I don't think that this statement is accurate. Please specify which sport or event you are referring to. For example... Ben Johnson, a Canadian sprinter found positive for doping, had his 88 gold medal stripped, but still retains his 2 bronzes from 84, etc...

Thanks,

J

Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby patrickaa317 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:13 pm

QoH wrote:
jghost7 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.


I don't think that this statement is accurate. Please specify which sport or event you are referring to. For example... Ben Johnson, a Canadian sprinter found positive for doping, had his 88 gold medal stripped, but still retains his 2 bronzes from 84, etc...

Thanks,

J

Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Charges alone, no solid proof from what I understand.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby SirSebstar on Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:28 am

patrickaa317 wrote:
QoH wrote:Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Charges alone, no solid proof from what I understand.

You understood wrongly. There was so much proof he did not even bother to contest it, knowing that the proof would then have to be publisized. And that would be more damaging then anything else.

With regards to cc, real life has always been a bad choise to compare it with, but even so, the medals will likely go to people who have at one time or another also been convicted of substance abuse.... Not all medals from a lifelong struggle are forfieted when someone makes a single mistake(or gets caught only once), armstrong is an exceptional case.


I do not hear anybody anymore about a point reset. And although that idea has been shot out of the water by the VETO ;-) it is still a better way to deal with it then removing medals.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby darth emperor on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:59 am

SirSebstar wrote:I do not hear anybody anymore about a point reset. And although that idea has been shot out of the water by the VETO ;-) it is still a better way to deal with it then removing medals.

I'm not sure about all this of removing medals, but a point reset I don't see it as a good idea. It's a form, of the point dumping.... :roll: so someone who cheats by throwing their games, because they want to have less points, so the can take more points when they win (something i really don't understand but meh). So you are rewarding them for breaking the rules
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby QoH on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:37 am

SirSebstar wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
QoH wrote:Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Charges alone, no solid proof from what I understand.

You understood wrongly. There was so much proof he did not even bother to contest it, knowing that the proof would then have to be publisized. And that would be more damaging then anything else.


Are you kidding me? This shit has been going on for a few years now. It went to the US Supreme Court (I think) and everything! He definitely contested it.

I haven't read anything about it yet, but apparently they found enough proof.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Woodruff on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:13 pm

darth emperor wrote:
SirSebstar wrote:I do not hear anybody anymore about a point reset. And although that idea has been shot out of the water by the VETO ;-) it is still a better way to deal with it then removing medals.

I'm not sure about all this of removing medals, but a point reset I don't see it as a good idea. It's a form, of the point dumping.... :roll: so someone who cheats by throwing their games, because they want to have less points, so the can take more points when they win (something i really don't understand but meh). So you are rewarding them for breaking the rules


The reason a point reset is bad is because while it does punish the cheater, it also significantly punishes anyone the cheater plays after the point reset.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby patrickaa317 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:29 pm

QoH wrote:
SirSebstar wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
QoH wrote:Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Charges alone, no solid proof from what I understand.

You understood wrongly. There was so much proof he did not even bother to contest it, knowing that the proof would then have to be publisized. And that would be more damaging then anything else.


Are you kidding me? This shit has been going on for a few years now. It went to the US Supreme Court (I think) and everything! He definitely contested it.

I haven't read anything about it yet, but apparently they found enough proof.


The charges went through because he stopped contesting it because he said he was sick of all the accusations and having to prove himself innocent.

Here are some links to articles that never prove innocence nor guilt. The only facts I know are that he passed hundreds of tests, the USADA still brough accusations forth, he finally said, whatever I'm done with the tests, I no longer contest it.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/8299245/lance-armstrong-legacy
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/08/we-may-never-know-if-lance-armstrong-doped/261562/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2012/08/24/on-lance-armstrong/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2012/08/columnists-fans-divided-after-lance-armstrong-drops-drug-defence.html

None of these are sites I solely rely on for information, I just did a google search and found a crap ton of articles that continued to speculate on it.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby SirSebstar on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:03 pm

USADA would say this:
http://www.usada.org/media/sanction-armstrong8242012
anyways,their ruling is final, but what the truth is, i do not know.

now, how does this bear up with the op's premise? retroactively changing individual games (or medals or whatever) is just plain a bad idea
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals

Postby MegaProphet on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:09 pm

jghost7 wrote:This suggestion is aimed at premium players only, and thus proposing an unbalanced punishment system. It would have to be implemented universally if at all.

I agree with this
jghost7 wrote:This determination will be one of the main points of whether this has a chance to make it through. First thing that must be decided is what infractions specifically this suggestion would apply to. Trying to blanket this type of disciplinary action over all types of infractions would be ridiculous.

I think it should only apply to large scale in-game cheating not any sort of forum, chat, or pm infraction. It should apply to multis and farming mostly
jghost7 wrote:Secondly, you would have to have a fair way to determine what types and how many should be revoked. Once again, this seems like it would be a nightmare and a huge additional load to the C&A team to actually come up with hard numbers on affected victories and types.

All medals should be stripped

jghost7 wrote:There is another issue with the implementation of this type of punishment. The fact that many of the "rules" are subjectively interpreted and standard definitions are avoided would create circumstances that would be unfair to the alleged rulebreaker. I would definitely not support any such measures to be imposed on any infraction that was not properly defined in the rules and the determination not subjective in any way, nor would I support the purely punitive measure as stated previously.

I think this suggestion needs to be more specific to have a true debate on whether to implement the suggestion.
What to punish and how.

There have been way too many cases ended unsatisfactorily to be comfortable with this potentially a blanket punishment.

I think this is more of a problem with the rules in general rather than with this suggestion. If a definitive answer for what gross abuse constitutes can be created for this suggestion I'm all for it, but it might as well be applied to all of the punishments given.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby jghost7 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:25 pm

QoH wrote:
jghost7 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The general opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.


Agree, except: strip cheaters of all medals, not just those regarding standard gameplay. Don't take time to research, "which medals," take them all away.

Real life comparison: in sports, those who have been found to indulge in "cheating" behavior, be it a competitor taking steroids or other enhancing drugs during some competitions, or a coach ignoring illegal and immoral activities - that someone else was perpetrating - are being stripped of all wins, not just those that can be "proven" to have occurred while these wrong behaviors were going on.


I don't think that this statement is accurate. Please specify which sport or event you are referring to. For example... Ben Johnson, a Canadian sprinter found positive for doping, had his 88 gold medal stripped, but still retains his 2 bronzes from 84, etc...

Thanks,

J

Most recently, Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 Tour De France titles for doping charges.


Ahhhh, but it was alleged that "...he engaged in doping violations from at least August 1, 1998..." and his first Tour win was 99, so he was stripped of the wins that occurred within the dates of doping. So, this wasn't a 'strip everything' penalty, it was measured to include the Wins that occurred withing the doping dates.


Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals

Postby jghost7 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:48 pm

MegaProphet wrote:
jghost7 wrote:
jghost7 wrote:This determination will be one of the main points of whether this has a chance to make it through. First thing that must be decided is what infractions specifically this suggestion would apply to. Trying to blanket this type of disciplinary action over all types of infractions would be ridiculous.

I think it should only apply to large scale in-game cheating not any sort of forum, chat, or pm infraction. It should apply to multis and farming mostly

Like what exactly? This would have to be specific...
Multis and medals? Don't think that will affect much. Farming and its subsequent spawn are the hardest to classify. It is one of the most subjective and controversial rules, and farming is generally for points not medals, so am not sure of the appropriateness of the penalty.


jghost7 wrote:Secondly, you would have to have a fair way to determine what types and how many should be revoked. Once again, this seems like it would be a nightmare and a huge additional load to the C&A team to actually come up with hard numbers on affected victories and types.

All medals should be stripped
I disagree here.
I think worst case scenario, it would have to be only the affected medals. I truly do not think it is wise to fiddle around with the medals at all.


jghost7 wrote:There is another issue with the implementation of this type of punishment. The fact that many of the "rules" are subjectively interpreted and standard definitions are avoided would create circumstances that would be unfair to the alleged rulebreaker. I would definitely not support any such measures to be imposed on any infraction that was not properly defined in the rules and the determination not subjective in any way, nor would I support the purely punitive measure as stated previously.

I think this suggestion needs to be more specific to have a true debate on whether to implement the suggestion.
What to punish and how.

There have been way too many cases ended unsatisfactorily to be comfortable with this potentially a blanket punishment.

I think this is more of a problem with the rules in general rather than with this suggestion. If a definitive answer for what gross abuse constitutes can be created for this suggestion I'm all for it, but it might as well be applied to all of the punishments given.
Even if you say that there is a problem regarding the rules, what do you think they use to determine whats punishable? Yes, the rules. If there is a perceived problem with the rules, then why would you go further and exacerbate the problem by adding a controversial penalty to go with the controversial rules interpretations? Add to that the fact that worst ones that you are trying to target with this change are the least likely to care.




SirSebstar wrote:USADA would say this:
....
now, how does this bear up with the op's premise? retroactively changing individual games (or medals or whatever) is just plain a bad idea

I agree.



Thanks,

J
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:55 am

The idea of a point reset for cheaters has been presented a number of times. It makes sense as a punishment for the cheater, but the problem is that it has the same effect as point dumping and can punish other people on the site that would now be playing with a higher level player that has a low score.

There is a possible solution for this: Introducing a "cheating modifier" in the point calculation equation. This value would be added to the cheater's score during the calculations. The modifier would start at a very high value and decay linearly to zero over some time period (say, 6 months). I'd suggest that the modifier be initially set to the highest score on the site so that cheater initially wins and loses points as if he was the conqueror, but he has a very low score to show for it.

As an example, suppose a player, we'll call him X, was caught cheating. He had a score of 3000 when he was caught and his points were reset to 1000. As of today, the highest score on the site is 5018. X plays two games against a player (named Y) with 3000 points. He wins one and loses the other. Under normal circumstances, X would gain 20x(3000/1000) = 60 points from Y for the game he wins and lose 20x(1000/3000) = 7 points to Y for the game he lost. The net would be a gain for X of 53 points.
Now factor in the point modifier. X gains 20x(3000/(1000+5018)) = 10 points for the game he wins and loses 20x((1000+5018)/3000) = 40 points for the other. He has a net loss of 30 points.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Woodruff on Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:39 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:The idea of a point reset for cheaters has been presented a number of times. It makes sense as a punishment for the cheater, but the problem is that it has the same effect as point dumping and can punish other people on the site that would now be playing with a higher level player that has a low score.

There is a possible solution for this: Introducing a "cheating modifier" in the point calculation equation. This value would be added to the cheater's score during the calculations. The modifier would start at a very high value and decay linearly to zero over some time period (say, 6 months). I'd suggest that the modifier be initially set to the highest score on the site so that cheater initially wins and loses points as if he was the conqueror, but he has a very low score to show for it.

As an example, suppose a player, we'll call him X, was caught cheating. He had a score of 3000 when he was caught and his points were reset to 1000. As of today, the highest score on the site is 5018. X plays two games against a player (named Y) with 3000 points. He wins one and loses the other. Under normal circumstances, X would gain 20x(3000/1000) = 60 points from Y for the game he wins and lose 20x(1000/3000) = 7 points to Y for the game he lost. The net would be a gain for X of 53 points.
Now factor in the point modifier. X gains 20x(3000/(1000+5018)) = 10 points for the game he wins and loses 20x((1000+5018)/3000) = 40 points for the other. He has a net loss of 30 points.


I like that idea, Doc, and I have previously been against the idea of a point reset for exactly the reasons you mention! I think that would be an excellent addition to the suggestion. Simple, yet effective.
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