[Rules/MED] Cheaters should be stripped of medals [Rejected]

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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:25 am

I'm going to leave this thread alone now. I think that the general support for the idea got drowned out due to my presence. Hopefully leaving the thread thread to develop on its own will evoke rational criticism of the idea without the ad homs and slanging matches that I have too readily engaged in.

I hope this idea gets discussed on its own merits as a legitimate suggestion, and that those who disliked me personally having suggested it will engage more dispassionately and with greater reason.

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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Evil Semp on Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:25 pm

Is stripping of medals going to stop people from creating additional accounts? Will it be a deterrent?

My opinion is no it will not be a deterrent. Many multi's are created to get around the 4 game limit.

I personally don't concern myself with medals. I have medals and points but I don't play for them. It doesn't matter to me if stripping medals would be an added punishment.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:37 pm

I think this would be particularly important regarding Conqueror medals, if it were instated. I think that proven cheaters should get a perma-ban with no option to start another account. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:53 pm

I'm not sure how this stands with the mods at the mo, but it kind of looks like most folks have said what they want to say. My take is, of course, that it seems like a good idea. I'm not sure if anyone else has input to give, but do so if you have.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:45 pm

Evil Semp wrote:Is stripping of medals going to stop people from creating additional accounts? Will it be a deterrent?

My opinion is no it will not be a deterrent. Many multi's are created to get around the 4 game limit.

I personally don't concern myself with medals. I have medals and points but I don't play for them. It doesn't matter to me if stripping medals would be an added punishment.


I don't know if this will stop people from making more accounts but I also think this is beside the point. What's fair is fair and what's right is right. If you are caught cheating it's safe to assume that you didn't earn your medals in the first place.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby chapcrap on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:00 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:If you are caught cheating it's safe to assume that you didn't earn your medals in the first place.

That's probably not true, but I don't have a problem with some kind of punishment here.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:06 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:If you are caught cheating it's safe to assume that you didn't earn your medals in the first place.

That's probably not true, but I don't have a problem with some kind of punishment here.


My feelings are that if you end up a cheater you aren't deserving of any medals, you're a disgrace. Someone with this mindset can't earn a medal. If you think that medals are just a symbol of winning x number of games on x setting then sure, I agree with you.
I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have a big label below your username, sort of like mods, that says in big red letters: CHEATER. That way you could just write them off as bullshitters and scum. I think it's odd how people can sort of wear off a bad rep on here, in the real military it's not like that at all. In rl you are forever marked, as it should be.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:30 pm

Evil Semp wrote:Is stripping of medals going to stop people from creating additional accounts? Will it be a deterrent?
My opinion is no it will not be a deterrent. Many multi's are created to get around the 4 game limit.
I personally don't concern myself with medals. I have medals and points but I don't play for them. It doesn't matter to me if stripping medals would be an added punishment.


Stripping medals is not going to stop everyone from creating additional accounts, we can agree on that.

Would it be a deterrent? Yes. Not for those creating multis to get around the 4 game limit, but for those that create multis to get away from their score history, or to increase the win rates for a main account or accounts, yes, "no honors" (no medals) would be a deterrent.

It would do something else, as well.

Many clans require a minimum set of medals in candidates to their ranks. Clans may not know the case history of every player, but they'd be able to see someone has no medals without a lot of research. The idea someone else had, "cheater" could work, too. Maybe that's the only medal they get, a big ugly whatever "medal" that brands them as a cheater and makes it very easy for respectable clans to avoid accidentally inviting one of "them" into their ranks.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby agentcom on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:40 pm

I think we can safely say that CC will not be handing out "cheater" medals. Let's not start up that discussion.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:43 pm

agentcom wrote:I think we can safely say that CC will not be handing out "cheater" medals. Let's not start up that discussion.


Fine, then let me re-emphasize my response as to whether stripping someone of medals would be a deterrent - yes, not for those doing it to play extra games as a freemie, but for those doing it to make a "main" account look better, it could be.

Additional benefit is to clans:
Many clans require a minimum set of medals in candidates to their ranks. Clans may not know the case history of every player, but they'd be able to see someone has no medals without a lot of research - and thus, know to deny that player entry to their ranks.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:03 am

What about users who were wrongly convicted of cheating? This would hurt them a lot more than the premium strip.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby stahrgazer on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:06 am

Commander62890 wrote:What about users who were wrongly convicted of cheating? This would hurt them a lot more than the premium strip.


I'd think that if they were wrongly convicted, and were able to substantiate that claim, the admins could re-instate their medals.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:42 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:If you are caught cheating it's safe to assume that you didn't earn your medals in the first place.

That's probably not true, but I don't have a problem with some kind of punishment here.


My feelings are that if you end up a cheater you aren't deserving of any medals, you're a disgrace. Someone with this mindset can't earn a medal. If you think that medals are just a symbol of winning x number of games on x setting then sure, I agree with you.
I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have a big label below your username, sort of like mods, that says in big red letters: CHEATER. That way you could just write them off as bullshitters and scum. I think it's odd how people can sort of wear off a bad rep on here, in the real military it's not like that at all. In rl you are forever marked, as it should be.

Exactly as it should NOT be. The whole point of punishment is that it settles the debt you have incurred by your transgression, and therefore by definition you are starting back with a zero net balance.

It's just as wrong when this kind of dragging shit out goes on in real life. When someone does his jail time or pays his fine in real life, we say "he's paid his debt to society" but then he suffers all kinds of additional penalties that weren't judicially levied, being barred from employment in various fields and from housing in certain buildings, etc., etc. That's double jeopardy, and it's just plain wrong. If he's been punished that should end the matter forever.

And I've never been in the military, but I've read lots of memoirs written by soldiers, from medieval times to Vietnam, and my impression is the opposite of yours. It seems to me the military is much more sensible about these things. If you commit some kind of infraction like sneezing while on stealth recon or whatever, the sergeant takes you out back after the patrol comes in and either gives you a good beating (in rougher times) or gives you three weeks latrine duty or whatever (in gentler times). Either way, when the punishment is done, the incident is over and nobody will ever mention it again. That's the way it should be. Punishment exactly balances the crime. Plus one and minus one become zero -- nothingness -- once they have met.

If people are unsatisfied with the scale of punishments then they should lobby to increase the severity of the scale, but not try to sneak in extra punishments that aren't part of the original bargain at all.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Gillipig on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:29 am

I have a little bit more radical suggestion, I was thinking of castration!? Would work as a deterrent for sure :).
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby chapcrap on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:20 am

Gillipig wrote:I have a little bit more radical suggestion, I was thinking of castration!? Would work as a deterrent for sure :).

Please stay on topic.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Gillipig on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:32 am

chapcrap wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I have a little bit more radical suggestion, I was thinking of castration!? Would work as a deterrent for sure :).

Please stay on topic.


Please get a sense of humour.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:28 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:If you are caught cheating it's safe to assume that you didn't earn your medals in the first place.

That's probably not true, but I don't have a problem with some kind of punishment here.


My feelings are that if you end up a cheater you aren't deserving of any medals, you're a disgrace. Someone with this mindset can't earn a medal. If you think that medals are just a symbol of winning x number of games on x setting then sure, I agree with you.
I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have a big label below your username, sort of like mods, that says in big red letters: CHEATER. That way you could just write them off as bullshitters and scum. I think it's odd how people can sort of wear off a bad rep on here, in the real military it's not like that at all. In rl you are forever marked, as it should be.

Exactly as it should NOT be. The whole point of punishment is that it settles the debt you have incurred by your transgression, and therefore by definition you are starting back with a zero net balance.

It's just as wrong when this kind of dragging shit out goes on in real life. When someone does his jail time or pays his fine in real life, we say "he's paid his debt to society" but then he suffers all kinds of additional penalties that weren't judicially levied, being barred from employment in various fields and from housing in certain buildings, etc., etc. That's double jeopardy, and it's just plain wrong. If he's been punished that should end the matter forever.

And I've never been in the military, but I've read lots of memoirs written by soldiers, from medieval times to Vietnam, and my impression is the opposite of yours. It seems to me the military is much more sensible about these things. If you commit some kind of infraction like sneezing while on stealth recon or whatever, the sergeant takes you out back after the patrol comes in and either gives you a good beating (in rougher times) or gives you three weeks latrine duty or whatever (in gentler times). Either way, when the punishment is done, the incident is over and nobody will ever mention it again. That's the way it should be. Punishment exactly balances the crime. Plus one and minus one become zero -- nothingness -- once they have met.

If people are unsatisfied with the scale of punishments then they should lobby to increase the severity of the scale, but not try to sneak in extra punishments that aren't part of the original bargain at all.


I'm more in the middle of you two, having been through most of this discussion. If you've earned a medal for something that you've cheated at, you don't deserve the medal. If you're genuinely good enough to have earned it without cheating, it shouldn't be a problem to earn it back once the slate has been wiped.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Dukasaur wrote:And I've never been in the military, but I've read lots of memoirs written by soldiers, from medieval times to Vietnam, and my impression is the opposite of yours. It seems to me the military is much more sensible about these things. If you commit some kind of infraction like sneezing while on stealth recon or whatever, the sergeant takes you out back after the patrol comes in and either gives you a good beating (in rougher times) or gives you three weeks latrine duty or whatever (in gentler times). Either way, when the punishment is done, the incident is over and nobody will ever mention it again.


I'm sorry, sneezing isn't nearly an accurate comparison. Cheating is more akin to something like being a traitor or a coward during battle in the military. In these cases, the infraction is not forgotten after the "punishment" has been enacted. You're indelibly marked.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby deathcomesrippin on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:58 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:And I've never been in the military, but I've read lots of memoirs written by soldiers, from medieval times to Vietnam, and my impression is the opposite of yours. It seems to me the military is much more sensible about these things. If you commit some kind of infraction like sneezing while on stealth recon or whatever, the sergeant takes you out back after the patrol comes in and either gives you a good beating (in rougher times) or gives you three weeks latrine duty or whatever (in gentler times). Either way, when the punishment is done, the incident is over and nobody will ever mention it again.


I'm sorry, sneezing isn't nearly an accurate comparison. Cheating is more akin to something like being a traitor or a coward during battle in the military. In these cases, the infraction is not forgotten after the "punishment" has been enacted. You're indelibly marked.


Being in the situation where I deal with the cheaters, I really feel like weighing in on this.

Who cares. Take away their medals. I know that I stated otherwise way back when, but the more I think the less I actually care about the fact that cheaters have medals or not. And, if it deters even a handful of people from doing it, that lessens the workload of the entire website. So get this done, and let's move forward. Remove the medals from multi cheaters and serial Secret Diplomacy cheaters.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:18 pm

deathcomesrippin wrote:Being in the situation where I deal with the cheaters, I really feel like weighing in on this.

Who cares. Take away their medals. I know that I stated otherwise way back when, but the more I think the less I actually care about the fact that cheaters have medals or not. And, if it deters even a handful of people from doing it, that lessens the workload of the entire website. So get this done, and let's move forward. Remove the medals from multi cheaters and serial Secret Diplomacy cheaters.

=D>

If anyone would have a grip on this subject it would be a multi-hunter.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Finsfleet on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:39 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have a big label below your username, sort of like mods, that says in big red letters: CHEATER. That way you could just write them off as bullshitters and scum. I think it's odd how people can sort of wear off a bad rep on here, in the real military it's not like that at all. In rl you are forever marked, as it should be.

Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:25 am

Finsfleet wrote:Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.


I also think that child molesters should have to have their foreheads branded with "CM". If this makes me a sadist, so be it. O:)
There are certain things that shouldn't be forgotten, for safety's sake. Besides, we are talking about an online game here; it's not like these people can't just leave and find somewhere else to go. You've got to keep your house clean.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Finsfleet on Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:51 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
Finsfleet wrote:Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.


I also think that child molesters should have to have their foreheads branded with "CM". If this makes me a sadist, so be it. O:)

No. It makes you __________ .

And the fact that you would even think about comparing these two situations makes you _________ .

And the rest of your post makes you either _________ or __________ .

I`m calm today so I`m not gonna use inappropriate words, but consider that I insulted you three times here. For explanation, read my previous post again. Well, part of it. The other part I just don`t feel like explaining right now.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:46 am

Finsfleet wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Finsfleet wrote:Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.


I also think that child molesters should have to have their foreheads branded with "CM". If this makes me a sadist, so be it. O:)

No. It makes you __________ .

And the fact that you would even think about comparing these two situations makes you _________ .

And the rest of your post makes you either _________ or __________ .

I`m calm today so I`m not gonna use inappropriate words, but consider that I insulted you three times here. For explanation, read my previous post again. Well, part of it. The other part I just don`t feel like explaining right now.


All of this is kind of a different suggestion to what is proposed.

FunkyT- if you genuinely consider that a worthwhile suggestion, perhaps make a separate thread and it can be discussed there.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby betiko on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:14 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
Finsfleet wrote:Sadistic bastard, f*ck off. I honestly hope that you don`t have any kind of power over other people`s lives in rl. If you think that crime is beyond redemtion, then deal with it accordingly. This is why we have foe lists, and this is why people are banned from sites. Marking people in any way doesn`t accomplish anything except making one group of people feeling better about themselves on account of another group of people.


I also think that child molesters should have to have their foreheads branded with "CM". If this makes me a sadist, so be it. O:)
There are certain things that shouldn't be forgotten, for safety's sake. Besides, we are talking about an online game here; it's not like these people can't just leave and find somewhere else to go. You've got to keep your house clean.


even a child molestor could deserve a second chance, depending on what he did, you can't label people (never better said) and put them in the same bag without even a trial. I just think that we should trust the mods judgment and let them decide according to the situation. noted, warning, forum ban, temporary site ban, point reset, medal stripping and guessed. Medal stripping is already something they can do anyway. You are basically asking to give a life sentence for any given crime on the site (as if there wasn't a scale of importance...), which is slightly manichean.
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