[Rules/MED] Cheaters should be stripped of medals [Rejected]

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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby agentcom on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:19 pm

I appreciate the continued discussion (even the analogies), but let's be sure to keep this on topic. For example, this topic is not about branding people as cheaters. There will be no scarlet letters issued by CC. I wouldn't even recommend suggesting it as a separate idea. In fact, there is already a suggestion for that. (I think. I don't have time to find it right now, but I think it's linked to in the farming index that I posted. That index is stickied somewhere around here.)

I also think the opinions of the C&A team are especially valuable here as this would be a tool for them to use.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:51 pm

blakebowling wrote:IMO, anyone found cheating should be busted, and reset (both to 1000, no medals). They should be allowed a single option to buy-back (as most people don't actually think it's monitored), and if they offend again, then they should be permanently website banned.

Found this back on page 4 or 5 of this huge thread. Quite frankly, this is by far the best way to deal with this. No need to have anyone work out what medals where won through cheating. Bust them hard like this and all of their friends will know what had happened straight away.

Strip some medals away as some have suggested is rubbish, who really looks at the medals of their friends on the site and keep track of them. If I went gold to silver on cross map, would anyone really notice. But if I went from Major to private overnight, everyone would. Most players may not even want to buy back the premium they lost. At least not for a long time.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:58 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
blakebowling wrote:IMO, anyone found cheating should be busted, and reset (both to 1000, no medals). They should be allowed a single option to buy-back (as most people don't actually think it's monitored), and if they offend again, then they should be permanently website banned.

Found this back on page 4 or 5 of this huge thread. Quite frankly, this is by far the best way to deal with this. No need to have anyone work out what medals where won through cheating. Bust them hard like this and all of their friends will know what had happened straight away.

Strip some medals away as some have suggested is rubbish, who really looks at the medals of their friends on the site and keep track of them. If I went gold to silver on cross map, would anyone really notice. But if I went from Major to private overnight, everyone would. Most players may not even want to buy back the premium they lost. At least not for a long time.


Yeah but some people use a point reset as an advantage so that option is out. I agree that medal stripping is more or less small potatoes and won't change a thing. Most people who cheat do it for points/ego boost, not medals anyway. It's sort of a contradiction, a cheater being interested in earning medals.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:19 pm

betiko wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
betiko wrote:even a child molestor could deserve a second chance, depending on what he did, you can't label people (never better said) and put them in the same bag without even a trial. I just think that we should trust the mods judgment and let them decide according to the situation. noted, warning, forum ban, temporary site ban, point reset, medal stripping and guessed. Medal stripping is already something they can do anyway. You are basically asking to give a life sentence for any given crime on the site (as if there wasn't a scale of importance...), which is slightly manichean.


Yeah, a child molestor could deserve a second chance but I don't think they should be babysitting anyone's kids without the parents knowing his/her history.
I feel that banning a player would be the equivalent of a life sentence, what I'm suggesting is more like a criminal record, a red flag if you will. I'm sorry to those who have cheated and may find this concept upsetting but you don't know what it's like to not be a cheater and therefore have no frame of reference. You're what we like to call a sociopath.
As far as being manichean, that's not exactly accurate either since I don't necessarily believe that a cheater is always a "bad person" but in an online gaming setting, it's just about as close as you can get.


What I mean for example, to continue with the metaphore, is that you can't judge the same way a 21 year old who has had a consented relationship with a 15 years old and an old priest who has used his psychological power on others to molest dozens of little boys and get away with it. I'm telling this because I once saw an investigation about this in the US. Basically people accused of sex crimes, sometimes not even proved, are on a record that anyone can consult on internet after getting out of prison. They even have a GPS tracker that showwhere they are at any time from an internet page. No one wants to employ them, give them housing, people harrass them on the phone, a lot become homeless ect. They are not been given any chance after accomplishing their punishment, and sometimes for "minor" things such as going out with an underaged being young themselves, their life is ruined and there isn't even a real victim as the relationship was under consentment.
There is a scale to everything. Concerning the "criminal record", just go in C&A, type in the username and you can find any file on that player. It's already quite transparent. Like I've said in this thread, someone getting caught twice cheating should just be banned from the site anyway.

Who are you adressing to about being cheats by the way here? people who don't have such extremist point of views such as the one you are exposing? And yes, you are being manichean as for you there is no such things as shades of grey. You basically want to judge the same way someone who is guilty of let's say secret diplomacy once and someone who created several accounts to play several players at the same time on a 3-8 player game. Just show me the link of a C&A report where you think the mods decision was unfair and you believe a change needs to be made in the scale of punishments (but it seems like there shouldn't be any such thing as a scale for you...)

But yes, someone who has earned a medal through cheating should get it removed just the way macbone said. Other medals that have nothing to do with his "crime" are kind of off topic... If he gets caught a second time he gets site banned anyways.


To Agentcom: I don't think I will actually suggest this because there are quite a few bleeding hearts on here that would cry bloody murder. However, I do think I should have one last post to defend myself since I object to the fact that I am being portrayed as some sort of monster for even considering this idea.

To Betiko:
I would just like to put the issue back in the scope of reality in that we aren't talking about ruining someone's life, we are talking about taking away someone's privileges for betraying the trust of their fellow players. The punishment I am suggesting is merely proportional to the crime in the frame of an online gaming environment.
Cheaters in CC = Child molestors in Rl
If you find the image icky, I'm sorry but the truth hurts.
Maybe the offenders are 10 year olds, I don't see how this makes a bit of difference. If anything, it would be a good life lesson for a youngster in which there would be no long term repercussions, a freebie, if you will. And to answer your question, I am referring in this discussion to anyone who has been more or less proven to be a cheater, not mistaken identity cases.
Ok, I'm done. ;)
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Finsfleet on Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:13 pm

I have no issues whatsoever on stripping medals, or any similar situation. But I do have issues with branding people. Reminds me too much of this:

Click image to enlarge.
image


But, if betiko`s excellent post didn`t at least make you reconsider, it just means that you are too vain and arrogant to listen to other people and too narcissistic (yes, I`m in name-calling mood again :D) to ever try to consider other people`s perspective. My literacy skills are far lesser than his (betiko`s) so I assume I wount accomplish anything with this, I don`t know why I even bother.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:33 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Yeah but some people use a point reset as an advantage so that option is out. I agree that medal stripping is more or less small potatoes and won't change a thing. Most people who cheat do it for points/ego boost, not medals anyway. It's sort of a contradiction, a cheater being interested in earning medals.

How can a point reset be an advantage? Cheaters cheat for a benefit, either points or medals are the only two real benefits this site can offer for the cheaters. Strip those away, what are the benefits?
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby macbone on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:41 pm

To be honest, koontz, yeah, I like your suggestion best. It's easiest, simplest, and it hurts.

However, I'd only support the option if there was a mechanism in place of undoing the reset/medal-stripping should the person be later exonerated. I can't think of a case in C&A history when someone was busted and later cleared of wrongdoing, but plenty of people serve time for crimes they never committed, and the same could be true here.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:17 am

Like all crimes, you can get to a point where you are rehabilitated, it just takes time for the medals and points to come back. So after a while, it would look normal and no new players would ever know the difference. This can easily be seen a time served for the crime. Like all systems, sometimes it is wrong and should only be fair that if a player is proven not guilty, they get it all back. But as you say macbone, when has a case like this ever happened.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:54 am

koontz1973 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Yeah but some people use a point reset as an advantage so that option is out. I agree that medal stripping is more or less small potatoes and won't change a thing. Most people who cheat do it for points/ego boost, not medals anyway. It's sort of a contradiction, a cheater being interested in earning medals.

How can a point reset be an advantage? Cheaters cheat for a benefit, either points or medals are the only two real benefits this site can offer for the cheaters. Strip those away, what are the benefits?



If you get your points reset, now you can play as a cook with the skill of whatever level you left off at. It makes for a dramatic increase in points under the right circumstances(use your imagination, as though you were a cheater).
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:58 am

Finsfleet wrote:
Click image to enlarge.
image





And the Drama Queen award goes to....
*drumroll*



Finsfleet!
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:05 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Yeah but some people use a point reset as an advantage so that option is out. I agree that medal stripping is more or less small potatoes and won't change a thing. Most people who cheat do it for points/ego boost, not medals anyway. It's sort of a contradiction, a cheater being interested in earning medals.

How can a point reset be an advantage? Cheaters cheat for a benefit, either points or medals are the only two real benefits this site can offer for the cheaters. Strip those away, what are the benefits?



If you get your points reset, now you can play as a cook with the skill of whatever level you left off at. It makes for a dramatic increase in points under the right circumstances(use your imagination, as though you were a cheater).


Ok, but how is that an advantage to the player? All it will do is mean that it will take less time for that person to get back up to their old rank (hopefully playing legitimately this time). It's not like they gain anything by being a cook. It's still a punishment.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby betiko on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:16 am

koontz1973 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Yeah but some people use a point reset as an advantage so that option is out. I agree that medal stripping is more or less small potatoes and won't change a thing. Most people who cheat do it for points/ego boost, not medals anyway. It's sort of a contradiction, a cheater being interested in earning medals.

How can a point reset be an advantage? Cheaters cheat for a benefit, either points or medals are the only two real benefits this site can offer for the cheaters. Strip those away, what are the benefits?


well it(s clearly not an advantage, It's just that you will take more points out of people compared to your real level on your way back up.
I personally think that your current rank is potatoes. Lots of good players have some guilty pleasures, I know a few that can be brig and that the next morning are caporals and vice versa through doodle crack speed games. I personnally can win/lose 500pts un any given day playing lots of speeders
Really, a point reset isn't a big deal, even though it encourages farming high ranked players lol. Basically what funky might be saying is that by point resenting someone it would be a prejudice for his opponents I guess.
Regarding medals, it takes litterally years and thousands of games to achieve gold and if people care about them, like a lots of people on the site, getting them stripped represents monthes and monthes of continuous cc gaming to get them back, so I do think it's relevant to see what the person has done first.
Example: player A accuses player B of secret diplomacy on a given game. Player A has lost 20pts (would he have won it anyways?) and makes a c&a report on player B (who maybe didn't even win that game). This guy gets all his medals stripped which represent his whole CC experience. I mean wether you like it or not, by having a quick look at anyone's medals you kind of see his CC identity as well. Does he play a lot, is it someone playing the same settings over and over, is he more into singles or team games, a freestyle player, a cartographer ect.. I think it's worth considering the punishment/prejudice ratio at some point, mostly if it's the first offense or if it s not even sure the guy is actually guilty.

also terrence, i ve asked you something: give the link to a c&a report where you think the punishment wasn't strong enough and has lead to a "strike 2".
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:22 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Yeah but some people use a point reset as an advantage so that option is out. I agree that medal stripping is more or less small potatoes and won't change a thing. Most people who cheat do it for points/ego boost, not medals anyway. It's sort of a contradiction, a cheater being interested in earning medals.

How can a point reset be an advantage? Cheaters cheat for a benefit, either points or medals are the only two real benefits this site can offer for the cheaters. Strip those away, what are the benefits?



If you get your points reset, now you can play as a cook with the skill of whatever level you left off at. It makes for a dramatic increase in points under the right circumstances(use your imagination, as though you were a cheater).

But you would quickly get back to your normal points rate very fast. Their is no advantage to playing as a cook if you are a major. Your points may be more if you win, but you still have to play as a cook first. Your a colonel so would you really want to play as a cook just to get more points now. This is not an advantage, it is an embarrassment. As for farming higher rank players, most that I know do not play cooks, and the ones that do would know this players old rank and may not even want to play them. If you play any cook as a colonel, you run the risk of losing lots of points.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby macbone on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:34 am

Losing all your medals over one Secret Diplomacy case does seem incredibly harsh, yeah, particularly things like mapmaker medals and tournament contributions.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:44 am

betiko wrote:Regarding medals, it takes litterally years and thousands of games to achieve gold


This is a good point that argues in favor of the point reset. I'm not a medal hunter myself so I hadn't really considered the amount of time it actually takes to achieve golds. Then again, how many busted multis have a lot of medals? This perhaps should be looked into.

betiko wrote:also terrence, i ve asked you something: give the link to a c&a report where you think the punishment wasn't strong enough and has lead to a "strike 2".


I'm not sure that my failure to provide a case where a "strike 2" was a result is going to strongly prove your point. I think that most people who are caught cheating in one way could react a number of different ways including:

A:Leave the site in shame/frustration.
B:Cheat the same way, only be very careful this time around.
C:Not cheat the same way but cheat in another way that is easier to cover their tracks.
D:Learn his/her lesson and never cheat again.

With all these possibilities I don't think that the existence of very few, if any, documented "strike 2's" proves a whole lot.
You see, it takes an understanding of fair play on a very basic level to know why the cheating is wrong. Being caught and punished doesn't actually teach a person lacking this understanding a damn thing besides what it takes to get caught.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Finsfleet on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:59 am

Funkyterrance wrote:And the Drama Queen award goes to....
*drumroll*



Finsfleet!

you say it like it`s a bad thing.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:23 am

macbone wrote:Losing all your medals over one Secret Diplomacy case does seem incredibly harsh, yeah, particularly things like mapmaker medals and tournament contributions.

Things like this should be exempt. You cannot cheat with these ones.

This could be a level of punishment just before the bans. So you get:
  • Warnings
  • Medals stripped
  • Ban

The C&A mods know what punishments they can hand out so it would be up to them where to slot this into their scale of things.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:50 am

koontz1973 wrote:
macbone wrote:Losing all your medals over one Secret Diplomacy case does seem incredibly harsh, yeah, particularly things like mapmaker medals and tournament contributions.

Things like this should be exempt. You cannot cheat with these ones.

This could be a level of punishment just before the bans. So you get:
  • Warnings
  • Medals stripped
  • Ban

The C&A mods know what punishments they can hand out so it would be up to them where to slot this into their scale of things.


I dunno guys, the whole stripping process is meant to be harsh. I don't think it's a matter of which medal you got for which; it's got to be all or nothing or else no one will take it seriously. There can't be any "safe" areas if this suggestion is going to be effective. It's all about humbling the person, not taking away their shiny bits.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Symmetry on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:23 am

koontz1973 wrote:
macbone wrote:Losing all your medals over one Secret Diplomacy case does seem incredibly harsh, yeah, particularly things like mapmaker medals and tournament contributions.

Things like this should be exempt. You cannot cheat with these ones.

This could be a level of punishment just before the bans. So you get:
  • Warnings
  • Medals stripped
  • Ban

The C&A mods know what punishments they can hand out so it would be up to them where to slot this into their scale of things.


That's my take on it too. Medals awarded for gameplay.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby agentcom on Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:27 pm

I know this thread is getting long, but I will clarify the reason why a point "reset" will not be used. A point reset (back to 1000) points does hurt the offending user. It will take them a while to get back even if they get more points per game initially. But the issue is that it hurts the people they play against. This "private" that suffered the point reset presumably has some skills beyond those of a private. So, the next several players who play against the "private" suffer higher losses and are awarded fewer points than otherwise would have happened. A better solution would be a point "penalty" which attempts to put the offending user back to the level s/he would have been at without the cheating. Of course, there are problems with that too, which pretty much boil down to a subjectivity/objectivity debate. Do we set a specific one-size-fits-all point penalty for certain infractions (objective penalties), which may punish users inequitably in specific instances? Or do we have the penalty decided on a case-by-case basis (subjective penalties), which increases workload for mods and opens the door for criticism in every case.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:53 am

If you want a point penalty, just knock them down 1 rank in points or have a 10% reduction. Which ever one is the greater loss.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Arama86n on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:49 am

Beckytheblondie wrote:Who have been the most famous or most infmaous multi accounts and what were their user names?

We're talking about *manimal in another thread, but I remember duality (Mad Pineapples), Benjikat, Blitzaholic, and PInocheckio. JeffHardy, Fredviii

BexXx


I was reading the "infamous multies" thread by beckytheblondie in general discussions, when something caught my eye. Benjikat, here claimed to be the multi of Blitzaholic, has played 1700+ games, yet has ONE medal, a special contribution medal. Didn't they hand out medals for standard/dubs/trips/quads/ in 2008, or was he stripped of his medals?
in which case, this HAS been done before!?
(my point being that is is impossible to play 1700+ games, win 50%, and not have bronze medals in standard or whatever type of game he played)
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby SirSebstar on Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:51 am

benjikat got kicked on 1st of june 2008
viewtopic.php?f=634&t=53112&hilit=medals+2008
medals were not instituted untill the 9th of june 2008. You only get medals for games when you end a game while the medal was instituted. So when the first time he would finish a game, he would automaticly also get al the associated medals he has earned thus far.

Blitz never was a multi.

fact are important, esp if they are searchable. Beckie should know better. no insult intended Arama86

Arama86n wrote:
Beckytheblondie wrote:Who have been the most famous or most infmaous multi accounts and what were their user names?

We're talking about *manimal in another thread, but I remember duality (Mad Pineapples), Benjikat, Blitzaholic, and PInocheckio. JeffHardy, Fredviii

BexXx


I was reading the "infamous multies" thread by beckytheblondie in general discussions, when something caught my eye. Benjikat, here claimed to be the multi of Blitzaholic, has played 1700+ games, yet has ONE medal, a special contribution medal. Didn't they hand out medals for standard/dubs/trips/quads/ in 2008, or was he stripped of his medals?
in which case, this HAS been done before!?
(my point being that is is impossible to play 1700+ games, win 50%, and not have bronze medals in standard or whatever type of game he played)
Last edited by SirSebstar on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby Arama86n on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:26 am

Edited (no longer relevant)
Last edited by Arama86n on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cheaters should be stripped of their medals Updated

Postby SirSebstar on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:49 pm

edited arama,
no insult intended
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