Rules Determination

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Re: Rules Determination

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:38 pm

I have to say I am of mixed feelings about this and will have to give it more thought. I am not in favor of removing porn, etc restrictions, but I don't think that was the real intent of the post. I think the intent is to get more consistantly applied rules. The problem is how to do that without being either bombastically stringent or too liberal.

Anyway, I don't care what system you have, some people will always find it unfair. I do think some specific forum accusations and pm threats should be treated more seriously, or at least as seriously as being a multis. Some of the other issues mentioned do rather take me aback, because I have not experienced or seen what is described. I found a long time ago that listing my occupation as "mom" cut back on a good deal of obnoxious commentary. I put that down becuase it was the truth, but have enjoyed some positive attitudes as a result.

That, I guess sort of sums up some of my general feelings here. No one, no site, no rules, no person or institution can truly prevent abuse. Some people just plain revel in being jerks. I ignore them and they tend to go away. When they don't, then I have found administration helpful. (note, I am talking about maybe 5-6 people I put in the 'total jerk" category in my entire CC "career").

What bothers me, what has bothered me, is when some moderators have used their mod positions to ensure that only specific viewpoints are expressed. There was a time when that was the case. It was corrected. There have also been times when the general fora seemed dominated by, well, folks who all seemed to be about 12 year old boys -- and happy to stay that way. Several of us created some sub fora in which we could discuss more serious or controversial issues in a more controlled environment. Then things began to "grow up" a bit in the regular forum and the side fora have been fairly neglected (though they still remain active for when there is need).

The one/two issue(s) that seem to consistantly be bones of contention are porn and "flaming". CC tried hosting specific areas for those types of activities, but it apparently got out of hand. The administration of CC made the decision they just did not want to host that type of activity, at least officially. However, some people still apparently engage in such during games.

This is not the only site with such a problem. The basic thing is that some people see such games as private entertainment, more or less "in their living rooms at home". But, are they really? The answer is "no". Essentially, even with pseudonyms, anything you say here is little different than something said out in the open on a street. Its not just a matter of having "public manners" ( I doubt many people would act face to face, in real life the way some do here). Administration also has to face the fact that legally, there are huge gaps, areas of untried law, areas where future laws may wind up retroactively impacting companies.... etc.

It is because of the last that CC has at times walked a tricky tightrope.. essentially keeping a pretty close hand on moderated discussions, the fora, while at the same time more or less keeping hands off the game discussions.

Anyway, just some semi random thoughts for now. I now have to go to an "incredibly urgent"/ "Earth changing" T-Ball game.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby AAFitz on Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:
AAFitz wrote:Fully disagree with said suggestion as its logic is fully flawed and seems motivated by other factors than actual positive change.


If you believe my motivation isn't for actual positive change, you can still contribute to the thread by pointing out the faulty logic. My motivation should be irrelevant to the merit or lack of merit of the suggestion.

You're someone I see as a pretty objective thinker, AAFitz, so I would really like your input on it, even if it's in disagreement with my view.

How is the logic "fully flawed"? Come on man...details!



Sorry...I gave it a quick read and it seemed like a troll, and my response was probably a little on the harsh side...but I dont really have time for it, and I genuinely dont care anymore, so, if you have a positive goal, and are looking to make positive change, I can only wish you luck with it.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby agentcom on Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:37 pm

It's been really cool to see the moderators' perspectives come out here.

I want to add that to me the biggest problems I see with the rules are (1) the vague and overlapping nature of the baiting/trolling/flaming rules and (2) the application of the bigotry rule.

The first is pretty self-explanatory and has been discussed by others.

The second is more interesting to me. If you read the rules closely, there are actually two standards for the bigotry rules. In game chat, "any form of bigotry" is not allowed, in addition to anything that is banned by the forum guidelines, which can be read to be more lenient. This makes sense to me as I've pointed out in a C&A topic that addressed the issue. The game chat is more "unavoidable" than the forum discussion. The purpose of this site is the game, so you don't want to have bigotry being bandied about in the games.

Also, I will second the poster above (forgot who it was) that noted that it is often not bigotry that is punished. It is the use of certain words. If the mods are going to punish bad words, as I've said before, they should list those words. If they are going to look at context for actual bigotry, they should do that and not punish just for using these bad words.

Overall, I'm generally in favor of less restrictions on speech in general. But I do understand that other users feel differently and the admins have to please the customers.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:19 am

Woodruff wrote:
Ace Rimmer wrote:
Pedronicus wrote:Before I weigh in with a response, who exactly in CC hierarchy is going to agree to implement these changes (if changes occur)?

99 times out of 100 we just piss in the wind.

A post by Lack would encourage me to offer my thoughts. But seeing as how this suggestion isn't going to raise revenue I doubt we're going to hear f*ck all from him.


AndyDufresne is the one that matters here, lack doesn't worry about this stuff, that's why he hired Andy.


I agree. If Andy and KingA buy in, then it's done. This sort of thing doesn't require any webmastering support.


It requires something, because the moderation of the site doesn't totally work on "what King A says." Maybe it should, but it doesn't.

Case in point I alluded to in my original comment. King A directed a player to send a pm to a mod who directed a part of the forum to discuss a disagreement. The mod didn't want the pm discussion and that mod took action that negatively affected the player on the entire forum. The mod took this action even though the mod knew the pm was only sent because King A told the player to send the pm; and then King A allowed the mod's decision to stand on the entire forum because, "we do not interfere with how forum mods direct their forums." And was allowed to stand despite the pm technically wasn't "in the forums."
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:26 pm

Tldr

Also, don't care,I enjoy the site plenty. I respect the mighty bog rollers at the upper echelons. I like a quick and unpredictable dose of bigotry to keep my feet wet. Most importantly, I enjoy my right to be a troll.
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:00 pm

I don't know what I should add here. I guess I'll tell a tale.

Once many years ago I was banned for being a TB Stachewaker. I asked every one involved for a reason and never got a reply. Sometimes here it's just the way it is.

Have a great summer everyone.
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Re:

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:54 am

2dimes wrote:I don't know what I should add here. I guess I'll tell a tale.

Once many years ago I was banned for being a TB Stachewaker. I asked every one involved for a reason and never got a reply. Sometimes here it's just the way it is.

Have a great summer everyone.


I think the point is that it shouldn't be that way anymore. And I don't believe it is, but I have a one-sided perspective. At some point, the forum-goers should acknowledge that there are different moderators now than there were in 2008 or 2009. I don't mean this to be snarky, but when we don't ban someone for something that someone else was banned for four years ago, it may seem unfair, but we're trying to get away from the bullshit bannings.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby squishyg on Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:02 pm

I think it would be nice if owenshooter, pimpdave, and phatscotty would stop getting banned for the sorts of posts Night Strike makes on a regular basis.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby The Voice on Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:08 pm

On that note, it would be nice if mods were held accountable for their actions like every other player. I think it would add a great deal of legitimacy to the rules.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby jgordon1111 on Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:31 am

The Voice wrote:On that note, it would be nice if mods were held accountable for their actions like every other player. I think it would add a great deal of legitimacy to the rules.


+1 Got to say thank you for bringing that point forward. As a MOD they are representing CC,Admin and The owner. For the rules not to be applied to them as they do to everyone else makes it look like the only thing important here is the premium players $25

If you are on the site and hold the position of Moderator,there should not be a time you are not representing CC and the owner. You have been given a responsibility to look after what happens here.

Your game play,what you say,and how you act is under a microscope that everyone looks at. If you bend the rules or show favoritism to a buddy,You make the site look bad,and inspire others to challenge rules that do not apply to everyone equally.

And every time a MOD does something along these lines,you are cheating every other player on this site and discriminating against them.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:45 pm

The Voice wrote:On that note, it would be nice if mods were held accountable for their actions like every other player. I think it would add a great deal of legitimacy to the rules.



BINGO!

jgordon1111 wrote:If you are on the site and hold the position of Moderator,there should not be a time you are not representing CC and the owner. You have been given a responsibility to look after what happens here.

Your game play,what you say,and how you act is under a microscope that everyone looks at. If you bend the rules or show favoritism to a buddy,You make the site look bad,and inspire others to challenge rules that do not apply to everyone equally.

And every time a MOD does something along these lines,you are cheating every other player on this site and discriminating against them.


DOUBLE BINGO!
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby deathcomesrippin on Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:05 am

jgordon1111 wrote:
The Voice wrote:On that note, it would be nice if mods were held accountable for their actions like every other player. I think it would add a great deal of legitimacy to the rules.


+1 Got to say thank you for bringing that point forward. As a MOD they are representing CC,Admin and The owner. For the rules not to be applied to them as they do to everyone else makes it look like the only thing important here is the premium players $25

If you are on the site and hold the position of Moderator,there should not be a time you are not representing CC and the owner. You have been given a responsibility to look after what happens here.

Your game play,what you say,and how you act is under a microscope that everyone looks at. If you bend the rules or show favoritism to a buddy,You make the site look bad,and inspire others to challenge rules that do not apply to everyone equally.

And every time a MOD does something along these lines,you are cheating every other player on this site and discriminating against them.


I don't feel I represent CC as a whole, just my single facet. I represent the C&A forums, and the enforcement of our rules as they pertain to C&A areas of concern. I have nothing to do with any of the other areas, and feel that my opinions in regards to other areas should be taken as the opinion of just another person. In the months I have been a mod, I have really barely interacted with anyone outside of my department, and I think people have the wrong idea about us mods being some kind of borg collective. If someone put a case through C&A that wan't just "This mod is abusing his power because he kicked me out of live chat!!1!!11" or "I was given a ban by this mod because he hates me because I hate his friend because he likes the mod" about a mod, I would treat it exactly like any other case, and I would hope the other mods would too. As for mods showing favouritism, I think I just answered that, or I hope I did. I can only speak for myself, but there is no modwide conspiracy to cover up our tracks if/when we mess up. I would hope that in each area we would be treated just as a user. If a mod fired off in one of my reports, I would warn him and lock the report same as anyone else. I think all mods would act the same way.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby ender516 on Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:35 am

The comment made by rdsrds2120 about precedents being difficult to trace is a valid one. I think the difficulty could be alleviated in part by posting a record of nearly every moderating decision to a topic associated with the rule that was applied. I say "nearly" because it might become onerous for some moderators who make many such decisions every day.

The criteria indicating that a record is needed would be:
  1. did the moderator have to think more than a little about the decision?
  2. did the decision provoke debate?

An answer of yes to either of these would mean we want to retain the result of the decision-making process as a precedent.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby SirSebstar on Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:52 am

I have read the first post and all seven pages.
Humbog i tell you. woodruffs post is filled with inaccurate generalizations, faulty assumptions and skwered logic and most of all a very bias point of view whereby purposly ignoring every bit of data that is unwelcome to him.
however i am going to assume he is is partly honest with his intentions. I am going to assume that the key question is that several highprofile cases have been out in the public, and that rampant spamming and speculation turned your head upside down.
Yes since the inception of this site the rules have changed. right alongside the community..
As i see the question of woodruff, well it would seem to me that he is asking permission to see where the line is and if he can cross it. Its not really that hard. the rules i mean. basicly, it is do not be annoying. Don't be stupid and don't behave like a little child when you don't get it your way..
Take Wicked. that was a total bust. a moderator going wild... sure it happens. since then it turns out to be the high profile exception.
now high profile players get a lid on their nose after the community has been after them for years. Sure it could have been done on day one, but then mods still are not spychic and omnicient.
to show your case is absurd, lets pull it into the real world.
thou shall not steal. pretty easy, right?! real world rule.
so you are in your moma's house and you are hungry and you take a cookie without asking. is it your cookie? no, therefor it is stealing. would a jury convict you. hell no. case dismissed.
the site rules are not made by me, but my posts and actions have influence over them, you might actually have more influence, but we all have influence. not all mods have the exact same definition. true. don't ask me about C&A works, cause I aint the judge there I don't see what they see, i don't know what they know, and i dont really want too, in general its not too hard though, its people lying about the unfair advantage they are taking advantage off and how it was always someone else who did it, and oh look he did that and got away with it. (mostly untrue, since they are already lying, facts are in short supply) but in general it is about people who purposly try ti screw things over for everybody else. I keep a tighter watch on Q&A then on discussions. does that need to be writen in stone?!. i hardly think so. if needed(hardly ever) i'll let the person know that its over the line and why.

the rules in place are not designed to be writen in stone(and a fat lot of good did this do the romans when they asked for writen rules, interpretation is still in the hands of the lawyers) they are there to give some flexability and weed out the worst. the worst, not everybody and everything that you don't agree with.
Someone sprouting bigotry in a clear and persistant manner? then report him. dont report the guy you had an argument with over every single posts where you two are flaming eachother. because then it looks like you have an alteror motive... bad mojo right there..
in short, nobody ever got banned that did not try to be a purposefull jackass. since that is the case, why do you want to change the playingfield?? unless you are stating that there are a lot of people who do not deserve to be here. on that last bit i concurr. there are a lot of people in the forum or game that are simply nightmarish, and yes they are low level jackasses, not to the level of a Wicked. Lets hope they never make it there and we can simply turn them on the good path with a friendly word, request or action. i don't seek to ban anybody, unless they force me to ban them.

in short, your story is nice to read. it looks like the barbarians are at the gates and everybody here is a closet nazi homo and/or republican (okay, that was funny)
But really, if you have specific questions, ask yourself this first.(warning: metafor for common sense) Would you mother mind if you did/say it?! if yes, then don't do it
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Robinette on Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:36 pm

SirSebstar wrote:I have read the first post and all seven pages.
Humbog i tell you. woodruffs post is filled with inaccurate generalizations, faulty assumptions and skwered logic and most of all a very bias point of view whereby purposly ignoring every bit of data that is unwelcome to him.
however i am going to assume he is is partly honest with his intentions. I am going to assume that the key question is that several highprofile cases have been out in the public, and that rampant spamming and speculation turned your head upside down.
Yes since the inception of this site the rules have changed. right alongside the community..
As i see the question of woodruff, well it would seem to me that he is asking permission to see where the line is and if he can cross it. Its not really that hard. the rules i mean. basicly, it is do not be annoying. Don't be stupid and don't behave like a little child when you don't get it your way..
Take Wicked. that was a total bust. a moderator going wild... sure it happens. since then it turns out to be the high profile exception.
now high profile players get a lid on their nose after the community has been after them for years. Sure it could have been done on day one, but then mods still are not spychic and omnicient.
to show your case is absurd, lets pull it into the real world.
thou shall not steal. pretty easy, right?! real world rule.
so you are in your moma's house and you are hungry and you take a cookie without asking. is it your cookie? no, therefor it is stealing. would a jury convict you. hell no. case dismissed.
the site rules are not made by me, but my posts and actions have influence over them, you might actually have more influence, but we all have influence. not all mods have the exact same definition. true. don't ask me about C&A works, cause I aint the judge there I don't see what they see, i don't know what they know, and i dont really want too, in general its not too hard though, its people lying about the unfair advantage they are taking advantage off and how it was always someone else who did it, and oh look he did that and got away with it. (mostly untrue, since they are already lying, facts are in short supply) but in general it is about people who purposly try ti screw things over for everybody else. I keep a tighter watch on Q&A then on discussions. does that need to be writen in stone?!. i hardly think so. if needed(hardly ever) i'll let the person know that its over the line and why.

the rules in place are not designed to be writen in stone(and a fat lot of good did this do the romans when they asked for writen rules, interpretation is still in the hands of the lawyers) they are there to give some flexability and weed out the worst. the worst, not everybody and everything that you don't agree with.
Someone sprouting bigotry in a clear and persistant manner? then report him. dont report the guy you had an argument with over every single posts where you two are flaming eachother. because then it looks like you have an alteror motive... bad mojo right there..
in short, nobody ever got banned that did not try to be a purposefull jackass. since that is the case, why do you want to change the playingfield?? unless you are stating that there are a lot of people who do not deserve to be here. on that last bit i concurr. there are a lot of people in the forum or game that are simply nightmarish, and yes they are low level jackasses, not to the level of a Wicked. Lets hope they never make it there and we can simply turn them on the good path with a friendly word, request or action. i don't seek to ban anybody, unless they force me to ban them.

in short, your story is nice to read. it looks like the barbarians are at the gates and everybody here is a closet nazi homo and/or republican (okay, that was funny)
But really, if you have specific questions, ask yourself this first.(warning: metafor for common sense) Would you mother mind if you did/say it?! if yes, then don't do it


That was a fun and interesting read sir..

Not sure i would appreciate that last part as much if I were a Nazi or a Republican, but since i am more of a Libertairian I would have enjoyed it even more had you been an equal oppourtunity basher and added a marxist Democratic twinge to it... hehehee... now that was funny too...
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Woodruff on Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:23 pm

SirSebstar wrote:As i see the question of woodruff, well it would seem to me that he is asking permission to see where the line is and if he can cross it.


Very much the opposite, actually. I would like "the line" to actually be drawn (as of right now, it is not) so that those who ARE crossing it can feel the pressure of moderator intervention. I'm not sure how you got that view of me from my post, to be honest. After all, as you can see if you did actually read the rest of the thread, I am far from the only one seeing these problems. Surely, you don't think all of the people in agreement with me are also just looking for the line so that they can cross it?

SirSebstar wrote:Its not really that hard. the rules i mean. basicly, it is do not be annoying.


And there you go...this is not enforced with any consistency at all. You've pointed out a large part of the problem.

SirSebstar wrote: in short, nobody ever got banned that did not try to be a purposefull jackass. since that is the case, why do you want to change the playingfield?


There are purposeful jackasses that clearly aren't feeling any pressure from the moderators. Consistency of application would suffice, and I don't believe it is too much to ask. And this isn't at all a matter of "people I disagree with", because of the five people I have in mind, two of their worldviews align very closely with mine.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby VectorxMan on Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:15 am

I'll say this right off the bat: the only parts of your rant/big block of text I read were the parts about bigotry and bank robbing.

-Remove the rule regarding "unwritten rules" as regards gross abuse of the game.
Unwritten rules = common sense stuff, however, it's stuff that needs to be put out in the open somehow and in some way so the unwritten rules is a good thing to have; albeit oddly named since it isn't so 'un' written :P.

-Remove the community guideline regarding not being intentionally annoying.
Spam/flooding a chat is an act of intentionally being annoying in my book. Therefore, keep this.

-Remove the community guideline regarding bigotry.
You have a point on this one.

-Remove the community guideline regarding trolling.
f*ck trolls. Keep this rule.

-Remove the community guideline regarding using the foe list.
There is no guideline regarding the use of the foe list since there isn't really a 'right' or 'wrong' way to use this list. The guideline page simply states the intent as well as some suggested uses for foeing someone.

-Remove the community guideline regarding flaming.
It may be hard for a fellow emotionless bastard to understand but there are people who take things they read on the internet very seriously. This rule should stay in effect.

-Remove the community guideline regarding nudity and pornography.
If you really really feel the need to beat off in between games then go to a different website. There are countless websites that exist. This one revolves around conquering the world. 'nuff said.

-Remove the rule regarding secret diplomacy.
No.

-Remove the rule regarding multi accounts.
No.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Bones2484 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:36 pm

VectorxMan wrote:I'll say this right off the bat: the only parts of your rant/big block of text I read were the parts about bigotry and bank robbing.


And by not reading, you completely missed the point of the suggestion. Nice job.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Woodruff on Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:35 pm

VectorxMan wrote:I'll say this right off the bat: the only parts of your rant/big block of text I read were the parts about bigotry and bank robbing.

-Remove the rule regarding "unwritten rules" as regards gross abuse of the game.
Unwritten rules = common sense stuff, however, it's stuff that needs to be put out in the open somehow and in some way so the unwritten rules is a good thing to have; albeit oddly named since it isn't so 'un' written :P.

-Remove the community guideline regarding not being intentionally annoying.
Spam/flooding a chat is an act of intentionally being annoying in my book. Therefore, keep this.

-Remove the community guideline regarding bigotry.
You have a point on this one.

-Remove the community guideline regarding trolling.
f*ck trolls. Keep this rule.

-Remove the community guideline regarding using the foe list.
There is no guideline regarding the use of the foe list since there isn't really a 'right' or 'wrong' way to use this list. The guideline page simply states the intent as well as some suggested uses for foeing someone.

-Remove the community guideline regarding flaming.
It may be hard for a fellow emotionless bastard to understand but there are people who take things they read on the internet very seriously. This rule should stay in effect.

-Remove the community guideline regarding nudity and pornography.
If you really really feel the need to beat off in between games then go to a different website. There are countless websites that exist. This one revolves around conquering the world. 'nuff said.

-Remove the rule regarding secret diplomacy.
No.

-Remove the rule regarding multi accounts.
No.


You might go back and read the whole suggestion. I suspect we're much more in agreement than you seem to believe from your admittedly cursory examination, other than apparently the rule on bigotry.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:17 am

The Voice wrote:On that note, it would be nice if mods were held accountable for their actions like every other player. I think it would add a great deal of legitimacy to the rules.


precisely.

let's take chemefreak for example.
post 1
chemefreak wrote:Um, go f*ck yourself? You whiny fucking little bitch. Seriously? This post shows you are probably one of the most pathetic assholes on this site. What did you add here? Vaseline (you can't even spell that right can you, you little fucking prick)...blow jobs? You are fucking clown who can't handle fog games...that is clear. So why don't you do us all a favor...shut the f*ck up and play only in the sun.


post 2
chemefreak wrote:f*ck you Chewy. You should see the terrible drop you gave me in the final. Asshole ;)


and there are plenty of other posts. plus he's an official of TeamCC talking to a regular user. in this sort of relatinship there should be nothing but respect.
now i wonder what kind of punishment i'd get if i talked like that to a mod/admin?
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby BGtheBrain on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:35 am

Meh.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby BGtheBrain on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:37 am

Meh.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:50 am

BGtheBrain wrote:Lets put that post in context douche.


thanks for proving my point that mods can talk to users however they please.

BGtheBrain wrote:This was the post that incited Chemefreak


ah, so if a users incites a mod then the mod is allowed to curse that user as much as he want, right?

is the opposite ok too?

for example you just called me a douche and i haven't provoked you in any way. so basically you started this.
can i start cursing you and it will be ok?


BGtheBrain wrote:From the Community Guidelines
"They aren't "staff" and they don't have to take crap from other members just because they have a special colour in their name."


but the community has to take crap from the moderators?
what about the people that PAY to play on this site and are cursed by the staff?
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby BGtheBrain on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:05 am

Meh.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby DiM on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:21 am

BGtheBrain wrote:You can call me a douche, I dont care.
I didnt prove a point.. You do that a lot. You make statements that are obvious but add an incorrect conclusion to backup your ridiculous statement.


ah, but you see, the problem isn't if you care or not. the problem is if i care because i was the one that was called a douche.
the fact that you don't care about being cursed, doesn't give you the right to curse others. that's the most stupid argument i've ever heard.

if i send lack/andy/KA a pm saying "f*ck you douchebag" and then mention i don't mind being called the same, will i be banned or will i get away with it? according to your logic i'll be fine, right?


BGtheBrain wrote:The mods are allowed to talk however they want. We have establishing that, it didnt prove a point...


wait, what? when did we establish that? where in the world does it say in the community guidelines that the mods are allowed to talk however they want?
in fact i know for sure that once you become a mod you also agree to uphold the highest standards of behaviour. or at least that's what i agreed to when i became one.

BGtheBrain wrote:
DiM wrote:but the community has to take crap from the moderators?
what about the people that PAY to play on this site and are cursed by the staff?

You fail to realize that moderators ARE community members.


and since the moderators ARE community members shouldn't they be punished in the SAME manner and obey the SAME rules?
i called somebody an idiot and an imbecile and i got banned.
calling me a douche would be comparable, right? will you get banned?
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