Suggestion: Fog Confirmation Round

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Re: Snapshots for starting 1v1 fog games

Postby agentcom on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:17 pm

Domicas wrote:So how does this work? A suggestion was made, people seem to like it and nobody objects. Does it get implemented or are we just wasting our time here?


Well that depends on your definition of "waste of time." This would be a rather large change, but one that many people support. In fact, I'm not sure who opposes this in one form or another. Generally, if a lot of people like a suggestion, it might get stickied so that it stays at the top of the page for a while. Then, when a lot of the details get worked out, it can get move over to Submitted Suggestions. That's one of the site owner Lackattack's "grab bags" for when he does site updates. The process is far from perfect, but that's what you get with a system run by a revolving door of volunteers. Sort of makes sense that it would end up that way.

Anyway, here's where I see this suggestion going, but it's going to take a while because this hasn't quite made the radar of my to do list. But if nobody gets to it before me, I'd probably bring all the suggestions about a waiting period together into one thread. Keep in mind that this has been rejected before, so by default, it would probably be pulled together in the Rejected Suggestions. However, if after reading through all the threads, I find that there's really no opposition to it (which I think may well be the case), I'll probably sticky it here. If (1) there's still not a huge amount of dissent; (2) the coding problems (if any) are resolvable; and (3) the moderators with powers greater than mine don't have a problem with it, it would get moved to Submitted Suggestions. The Suggestions team and the Tech Team are working on some ways to try to streamline the final step, which is getting things out of Submitted Suggestions and into actual gameplay. It's a work in progress though.

As you can see, the process takes time. And there is already quite a lot of suggestions in Submitted Suggestions. Some of those have quite the history.

I don't mean to sound like a downer, but just want you to know how the process currently works. It takes time--many say too much time. But that's how it is. I hope this helps.
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Re: Snapshots for starting 1v1 fog games

Postby darth emperor on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:43 pm

agentcom wrote:An interesting situation would occur in foggy manual games, as you would have 2 rounds of this type of "non-turn." Two considerations arise from this. First, the "fog/view/snap" turn should come after the "manual/deploy" turn. Second, in a 20 round limit game, you have now decreased the amount of playable rounds to 18, rather than 19 or 20.

I don't see the need of two rounds. With the deployment-turn you get to see the map, before anything happens... it's true that with the second round, you get a chance to see where they deployed (if you are nearby), but based on the log, is very predictable. So I would take out the view for fog in manual games.
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12 hour lock-out

Postby thehippo8 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:56 pm

Concise description: Lock
  • -out players from making false starts in the 12-hour get a snap-shot period.

Specifics/Details:
  • Rather than have players accidentally move in the first 12 hours of a 24 hour period where they would default the game for premature move by stopping the opponents from being able to take a snap-shot - how about in such clan tournaments there be an option to stop people from being able to move in that 12 hours period? Anti-idiot device.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Mid clan tournament this issue has arisen. It is understood that automatic snap-shots are not available because players have to log on and take the snap-shot. But there are instances where games are forfeit for premature moves where it is idiot error rather than anything else. If there was an option (to be ticked) which stopped players from doing that (such as the servor error which pops up when you try and start a Battle Royale game when you've already joined one in the last month) then this issue would go away. Not sure how serious an issue this is but I can see it ruining otherwise good competition when someone is tired, travelling, limited connection or otherwise makes this error. Thoughts?
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby blakebowling on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:34 am

It doesn't make sense to implement this as an option in the game. It would make much more sense to simply implement snapshots in-game, Store one when the game starts (from each player's perspective) and make it available to that player.
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby Pedronicus on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:45 am

blakebowling wrote:It doesn't make sense to implement this as an option in the game. It would make much more sense to simply implement snapshots in-game, Store one when the game starts (from each player's perspective) and make it available to that player.


you know, it really would be helpful if a few more admin actually played some decent level clan games so they understood the importance of what we are requesting.
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby agentcom on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:15 pm

Pedronicus wrote:
blakebowling wrote:It doesn't make sense to implement this as an option in the game. It would make much more sense to simply implement snapshots in-game, Store one when the game starts (from each player's perspective) and make it available to that player.


you know, it really would be helpful if a few more admin actually played some decent level clan games so they understood the importance of what we are requesting.


Oh boy, first of all, some version of a 12-hour snap period has been suggested before, but the OP is just about clans so ...

First off and in response to the quote above, there's a fair share of clan representation among the moderators--maybe even "decent level" clan representation. Maybe not in the admin, though, if you were intentionally making that distinction.

Second, the best work-around that I've seen for this (as long as you're just talking about clan wars ... and also applies to tourneys) is to put "FOG RULE" or something similar in the game title. Talk to your clan leaders about getting this done.

Third, why should this just be incorporated for clan wars? If someone takes the time to develop it as a site feature, then I think it should be available to all players starting a game. The only downside of a 12-hour snap period would be to freemiums who want to play quickly. So maybe you only make it an option rather than a standard feature of fog games.
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby sirgermaine on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:44 pm

Of course, the site as a whole is hypothetically designed such that a player who logs on once a day won't ever miss anything, so it would really make more sense to have a 24-hour waiting period, just to be consistent with the 24-hour turns. It would presumably be a turn 0 like with manual troops. I would agree there is no reason to limit this to clan games.
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby jghost7 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:13 pm

sirgermaine wrote:Of course, the site as a whole is hypothetically designed such that a player who logs on once a day won't ever miss anything, so it would really make more sense to have a 24-hour waiting period, just to be consistent with the 24-hour turns. It would presumably be a turn 0 like with manual troops. I would agree there is no reason to limit this to clan games.



This.

So, maybe instead of adding a full turn of dead time, you could start at -12 hrs. So, game initializes at 6pm today, and the 24 hr timer would begin at 6am tomorrow.

I don't think the starting player should be only allowed to use 12 hrs on their turn if something like this is implemented.

I do think that blake is right though, an auto snap probably would best and easiest.

Thanks,

J
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby agentcom on Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:14 am

sirgermaine wrote:Of course, the site as a whole is hypothetically designed such that a player who logs on once a day won't ever miss anything, so it would really make more sense to have a 24-hour waiting period, just to be consistent with the 24-hour turns. It would presumably be a turn 0 like with manual troops. I would agree there is no reason to limit this to clan games.


Presumably jghost was saying "This." to the blue part, which I also agree with, but I thought the red part was a good point. Never thought about that before.
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby jghost7 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:19 am

agentcom wrote:
sirgermaine wrote:Of course, the site as a whole is hypothetically designed such that a player who logs on once a day won't ever miss anything, so it would really make more sense to have a 24-hour waiting period, just to be consistent with the 24-hour turns. It would presumably be a turn 0 like with manual troops. I would agree there is no reason to limit this to clan games.


Presumably jghost was saying "This." to the blue part, which I also agree with, but I thought the red part was a good point. Never thought about that before.


Fixed.

He has a valid point here. What I suggested did not contradict his point, but just showed an alternative solution. I used a 36 hr variant rather than his 48 hr version, but they are both consistent with the first player having a full 24 hrs to play the turn.

Thanks,

J
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby chapcrap on Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:53 pm

It has been suggested before that players have 24 hours to see the map and you must start and end a turn to complete the 24 hours. It would be like the beginning of a manual game where everyone has a 24 hour period to deploy troops. Everyone would have a 24 hour period to take a snap shot or see the map or do whatever they want to do.

I think that is the best solution. Not to just give 24 hours, but make it part of a turn, like on manual games.
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby thehippo8 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:20 pm

chapcrap wrote:It has been suggested before that players have 24 hours to see the map and you must start and end a turn to complete the 24 hours. It would be like the beginning of a manual game where everyone has a 24 hour period to deploy troops. Everyone would have a 24 hour period to take a snap shot or see the map or do whatever they want to do.

I think that is the best solution. Not to just give 24 hours, but make it part of a turn, like on manual games.

Perhaps this can be be implemented by having a tournament box to click on the creation of a game?
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Re: 12 hour lock-out

Postby 72o on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:32 am

Maybe we can create a script in the interim to help with this?

viewtopic.php?f=528&t=180372&start=0
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fog.courtesy.waiting.option

Postby hiitsmestevie1 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:24 am

fog.courtesy.waiting.option
i.cant.find.this.topic,though.i,.recall.it.being.mentioned
ohh..sorry.space.bar.is.broken.
anyhow...


when.making.a.fog.game.i.think.there.could.be.an.option.of.waiting.before.first.turn..
giving.the.2nd.player/team.the.option.to.see.map.before.game..
also.this.prevents.players.from.not.knowing.if.the.other.team.plans.to.play.by.that.rule.
those.who.dont.want.the.option.can.still.play.with.out.it...but.those.who.would.like.others.to.wait..would.create.a.game.with.the.waiting.option..
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Re: fog.courtesy.waiting.option

Postby chapcrap on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:14 pm

Space bar broken?

This has been suggested before, multiple times.
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Re: fog.courtesy.waiting.option

Postby Vid_FISO on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:41 am

The auto-snap idea is better, no reason then to wait and potentially risk missing your own move as does happen when life/ internet connection get in the way/ let you down.
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Option to enforce 12h fog rule

Postby Finsfleet on Fri May 10, 2013 1:16 pm

Concise description:
  • In fog games game creator should have an option to enforce 12h fog rule. When game starts, the one who starts first wouldn`t be able to start her or his move for 12 hours

Specifics/Details:
  • These 12 hours would not count to the first player`s 24. Meaning, the clock would start ticking from 24h to down after those 12h.
  • Opposing players should have "snap taken" button, which would end the waiting and start the 24h clock for the first player.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • I always get mad when opposing team starts the game immediately. I`m also often the one to forget to wait 12h from time to time.
Last edited by Finsfleet on Sat May 11, 2013 5:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Enforce 12h fog rule

Postby Qwert on Fri May 10, 2013 1:28 pm

Finsfleet wrote:Concise description:
  • In fog games game creator should have an option to enforce 12h fog rule. When game starts, the one who starts first wouldn`t be able to start her or his move for 12 hours

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • I always get mad when opposing team starts the game immediately. I`m also often the one to forget to wait 12h from time to time.


you mean in games where bout team agree on fog rule?
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Re: Enforce 12h fog rule

Postby jghost7 on Fri May 10, 2013 1:29 pm

Would that allow 12 hrs or 36 hours for the first turn? I think you have to give the 24 hours to play the turn, and if you force lock a game for 12 hours, then the 24 hr timer should begin after the lock ends.
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Re: Enforce 12h fog rule

Postby Finsfleet on Fri May 10, 2013 1:46 pm

qwert wrote:
Finsfleet wrote:Concise description:
  • In fog games game creator should have an option to enforce 12h fog rule. When game starts, the one who starts first wouldn`t be able to start her or his move for 12 hours

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • I always get mad when opposing team starts the game immediately. I`m also often the one to forget to wait 12h from time to time.


you mean in games where bout team agree on fog rule?

I`d say that you agree to the terms of the game as soon as you join it.
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Re: Enforce 12h fog rule

Postby Finsfleet on Fri May 10, 2013 1:46 pm

jghost7 wrote:Would that allow 12 hrs or 36 hours for the first turn? I think you have to give the 24 hours to play the turn, and if you force lock a game for 12 hours, then the 24 hr timer should begin after the lock ends.

Good point. I`ll edit the description.
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Re: Enforce 12h fog rule

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri May 10, 2013 7:39 pm

I see a limited number of users actually using this.

However, there are more users that use an unofficial version of this than there are that used an unofficial version of Trench, and that got implemented. However, that was a radical change in gameplay, whereas this is more of a tune-up.

I would want some programmer input on how long this would take to implement. I imagine it would be fairly easy, but I have been wrong before.
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Re: Enforce 12h fog rule

Postby Gilligan on Fri May 10, 2013 9:38 pm

jghost7 wrote:Would that allow 12 hrs or 36 hours for the first turn? I think you have to give the 24 hours to play the turn, and if you force lock a game for 12 hours, then the 24 hr timer should begin after the lock ends.


+1. If there's a 12 hour forced wait, you must have 24 hours after that to take a turn. I know a few people in my clan who only log on once or twice a day, and would not be able to take their turn if left with only 12 possible hours.
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Re: Enforce 12h fog rule

Postby Finsfleet on Sat May 11, 2013 2:37 am

DoomYoshi wrote:I would want some programmer input on how long this would take to implement. I imagine it would be fairly easy, but I have been wrong before.

Estimation is the most difficult part of developers job and it is almost never accurate. You can only predict order of magnitude, not an actual time. It is difficult enough when you are working on the site, without looking at the code it is impossible to say anything.

I see a limited number of users actually using this

However, there are more users that use an unofficial version of this than there are that used an unofficial version of Trench, and that got implemented. However, that was a radical change in gameplay, whereas this is more of a tune-up.

I don`t see it that way. 12h fog rule is now almost a regular rule in tournament and clan games, whether in casual or strict ways. And it is usually casual for two reasons: because people forget (like I do) and because people don't have time to wait (like Gillian and jghost7 pointed out).
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Re: Enforce 12h fog rule

Postby greenoaks on Sat May 11, 2013 3:09 am

stupid idea.


a better one would be a snap is taken when a game commences. play is not delayed and it is available for everyone, even those without bob.
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