Large Printable Maps

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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby greenoaks on Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:32 am

agentcom wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:What would be the sites objections to map makers selling their work to the players through the site?


It sounds like a win-win to me. I can think of only one objection: The folks at Hasbro obviously had some influence on the direction of this site. This site can claim to be unique in many ways, which is why it is still up and running. Part of that reason is the unique maps ... no problem there. But when you take this off of the computer and replace the power squares (or whatever we call them) with dice and you replace the "spoils" with color-coded cards, and you remove the fog of war, and you start putting little counters on the board ... well this starts to look a lot more like the R-word.

Whether they have a winning claim or not, I can assure you that if we started to sell a bunch of these, someone would quickly receive a cease and desist order. Then we would have to decide whether or not to comply or risk going to court.

It's an unfortunate state of affairs, but even though that's the only reason I can think of that the site wouldn't go this direction, it is a pretty weighty reason.

all we need to do is buy a t-shirt and place that on the dining table
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:03 am

greenoaks wrote:
agentcom wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:What would be the sites objections to map makers selling their work to the players through the site?


It sounds like a win-win to me. I can think of only one objection: The folks at Hasbro obviously had some influence on the direction of this site. This site can claim to be unique in many ways, which is why it is still up and running. Part of that reason is the unique maps ... no problem there. But when you take this off of the computer and replace the power squares (or whatever we call them) with dice and you replace the "spoils" with color-coded cards, and you remove the fog of war, and you start putting little counters on the board ... well this starts to look a lot more like the R-word.

Whether they have a winning claim or not, I can assure you that if we started to sell a bunch of these, someone would quickly receive a cease and desist order. Then we would have to decide whether or not to comply or risk going to court.

It's an unfortunate state of affairs, but even though that's the only reason I can think of that the site wouldn't go this direction, it is a pretty weighty reason.

all we need to do is buy a t-shirt and place that on the dining table

To damn small unless you buy the baby elephant sized ones.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:02 am

koontz1973 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
agentcom wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:What would be the sites objections to map makers selling their work to the players through the site?


It sounds like a win-win to me. I can think of only one objection: The folks at Hasbro obviously had some influence on the direction of this site. This site can claim to be unique in many ways, which is why it is still up and running. Part of that reason is the unique maps ... no problem there. But when you take this off of the computer and replace the power squares (or whatever we call them) with dice and you replace the "spoils" with color-coded cards, and you remove the fog of war, and you start putting little counters on the board ... well this starts to look a lot more like the R-word.

Whether they have a winning claim or not, I can assure you that if we started to sell a bunch of these, someone would quickly receive a cease and desist order. Then we would have to decide whether or not to comply or risk going to court.

It's an unfortunate state of affairs, but even though that's the only reason I can think of that the site wouldn't go this direction, it is a pretty weighty reason.

all we need to do is buy a t-shirt and place that on the dining table

To damn small unless you buy the baby elephant sized ones.

Buy one for each player. The game begins with everybody taking their shirt off and placing it on the table in front of them...

:lol:
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:30 am

Dukasaur wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
agentcom wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:What would be the sites objections to map makers selling their work to the players through the site?


It sounds like a win-win to me. I can think of only one objection: The folks at Hasbro obviously had some influence on the direction of this site. This site can claim to be unique in many ways, which is why it is still up and running. Part of that reason is the unique maps ... no problem there. But when you take this off of the computer and replace the power squares (or whatever we call them) with dice and you replace the "spoils" with color-coded cards, and you remove the fog of war, and you start putting little counters on the board ... well this starts to look a lot more like the R-word.

Whether they have a winning claim or not, I can assure you that if we started to sell a bunch of these, someone would quickly receive a cease and desist order. Then we would have to decide whether or not to comply or risk going to court.

It's an unfortunate state of affairs, but even though that's the only reason I can think of that the site wouldn't go this direction, it is a pretty weighty reason.

all we need to do is buy a t-shirt and place that on the dining table

To damn small unless you buy the baby elephant sized ones.

Buy one for each player. The game begins with everybody taking their shirt off and placing it on the table in front of them...

:lol:

Strip risk. ;)

Back to topic though. I am going to take one of my 1982 map to the printers Monday to see how large they will go without the image becoming too bad. After cropping of the legend that is.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:54 am

agentcom wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:What would be the sites objections to map makers selling their work to the players through the site?


It sounds like a win-win to me. I can think of only one objection: The folks at Hasbro obviously had some influence on the direction of this site. This site can claim to be unique in many ways, which is why it is still up and running. Part of that reason is the unique maps ... no problem there. But when you take this off of the computer and replace the power squares (or whatever we call them) with dice and you replace the "spoils" with color-coded cards, and you remove the fog of war, and you start putting little counters on the board ... well this starts to look a lot more like the R-word.

Whether they have a winning claim or not, I can assure you that if we started to sell a bunch of these, someone would quickly receive a cease and desist order. Then we would have to decide whether or not to comply or risk going to court.

It's an unfortunate state of affairs, but even though that's the only reason I can think of that the site wouldn't go this direction, it is a pretty weighty reason.


I agree that you couldn't go and try to sell the whole shebang (cards, dice, men, etc.) without possible difficulties but if you left all the pieces up to the players and just sold the map itself I can't see much legal ground to stand on as far as cease and desist orders are concerned.

koontz1973 wrote:
Back to topic though. I am going to take one of my 1982 map to the printers Monday to see how large they will go without the image becoming too bad. After cropping of the legend that is.


Please keep us posted on this, koontz!
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby chapcrap on Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:04 pm

This would be a win-win for everyone involved. Let me give you money for a map!!
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby agentcom on Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:57 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
I agree that you couldn't go and try to sell the whole shebang (cards, dice, men, etc.) without possible difficulties but if you left all the pieces up to the players and just sold the map itself I can't see much legal ground to stand on as far as cease and desist orders are concerned.



I'm not a lawyer (yet) but that's a good point. I'd think it would be a hardimpossible case to win if you CC was just helping artists sell their art. As for the pieces, I would suggest two things.

First, sell the pieces separately. This is actually better because who needs new pieces with every map. Plus you're kind of divorcing the one thing (the map) from the other (all the pieces). And I'm sure we could get some people to come up with some cool ideas for different types of pieces you could buy. And I want a set of CC dice with the little star logos on them (and the ace is a big CC logo taking up a whole side of the die). :D

The other way to go, I think, would be to do what koontz said and write down all the modified rules so that the work has truly been transformative (making it into a new/different game).

And/or do both.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:48 am

agentcom wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
I agree that you couldn't go and try to sell the whole shebang (cards, dice, men, etc.) without possible difficulties but if you left all the pieces up to the players and just sold the map itself I can't see much legal ground to stand on as far as cease and desist orders are concerned.



First, sell the pieces separately. This is actually better because who needs new pieces with every map. Plus you're kind of divorcing the one thing (the map) from the other (all the pieces). And I'm sure we could get some people to come up with some cool ideas for different types of pieces you could buy.


Totally good point, selling separately would solve the dilemma perfectly.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:58 pm

Well, I promised to keep you all apprised of this one. Right now though it does not work for all maps.

Here are the reasons why.
Text even one the large map will become almost unreadable when the image is made large enough to play.
When printed on to an A3 paper, the territs are not quite big enough. A2 is a must for this to work.
Here is a photo for Jakarta (one of my maps) done at A3 using my original R**K pieces with the map underneath so you can compare the size.
The image quality printed at this size is not of a great quality.
Click image to enlarge.
image

What would needed to be done for this to work.
Maps without text (legend text that is).
Maps made far larger than we have now. Double would be ideal.
Less detail placed onto the maps.
Maps redrawn so small territs become bigger.
And then we get into the trouble of cards, rules and what not.

But right now, I am going to have fun, beating my son in 1v1 games. :mrgreen:

Right now I cannot see how this work without a lot of work on the map makers side. So CC, make me an offer. :D
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:00 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Well, I promised to keep you all apprised of this one. Right now though it does not work for all maps.

Here are the reasons why.
Text even one the large map will become almost unreadable when the image is made large enough to play.
When printed on to an A3 paper, the territs are not quite big enough. A2 is a must for this to work.
Here is a photo for Jakarta (one of my maps) done at A3 using my original R**K pieces with the map underneath so you can compare the size.
The image quality printed at this size is not of a great quality.
Click image to enlarge.
image

What would needed to be done for this to work.
Maps without text (legend text that is).
Maps made far larger than we have now. Double would be ideal.
Less detail placed onto the maps.
Maps redrawn so small territs become bigger.
And then we get into the trouble of cards, rules and what not.

But right now, I am going to have fun, beating my son in 1v1 games. :mrgreen:

Right now I cannot see how this work without a lot of work on the map makers side. So CC, make me an offer. :D


Thanks for the update, koontz. :)
To me it seems that anyone who stood to get a little compensation for their map being printed might put in the time to make the changes needed to their map in order to make it viable for large printing?
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:27 pm

Perhaps CC should focus not on boards, but simply high quality posters. Who wouldn't want to hang a poster of their favorite map over their bed? And then, when you feel like it, you could always take down the map for redecoration and relocation to your table for a while.


--Andy
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:37 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Perhaps CC should focus not on boards, but simply high quality posters. Who wouldn't want to hang a poster of their favorite map over their bed? And then, when you feel like it, you could always take down the map for redecoration and relocation to your table for a while.


--Andy


You won't hear me complain about a dual purpose map. :D
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby chapcrap on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:49 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Perhaps CC should focus not on boards, but simply high quality posters. Who wouldn't want to hang a poster of their favorite map over their bed? And then, when you feel like it, you could always take down the map for redecoration and relocation to your table for a while.


--Andy

Yes, I think there is always a way to get the map sold legally.

It sounds like the real issue is more of a graphics thing... Could the foundry ask the map makers to create a game board quality image along with the small and large?
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:58 pm

For what is worth, if a player ask me if he can print one of my map to play on it with friends, I have zero problem to give him the permission. And i think it's the same for all the other mapmakers, i think.
I draw maps because I like to draw maps, it's not for money.

Rather, if the player has a bit of patience and he doesn't set a deadline, I would produce an high quality image to send to him. Then he is free to do what he wants with the image apart make profit or give it to someone else without ask.

Said that, I don't think people here is referring to one of my maps :mrgreen:
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby chapcrap on Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:00 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:For what is worth, if a player ask me if he can print one of my map to play on it with friends, I have zero problem to give him the permission. And i think it's the same for all the other mapmakers, i think.
I draw maps because I like to draw maps, it's not for money.

Rather, if the player has a bit of patience and he doesn't set a deadline, I would produce an high quality image to send to him. Then he is free to do what he wants with the image apart make profit or give it to someone else without ask.

Said that, I don't think people here is referring to one of my maps :mrgreen:

What do you think of asking mapmakers to provide such an image when their map is quenched?
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby 72o on Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:29 pm

If the map images can be provided in a vector format or other scalable image file, I can get them printed pretty cheap. My father-in-law is a photographer, and has the ability to print pretty large in-house, and can farm out large images cheaply.

He can make fathead-type vinyl cutouts also - that would be cool for a "poster" as well as a "game board" that could be stuck directly to the kitchen table. They are removable and repositionable ad infinitum. No more flipping the board over when you get mad, you'd have to flip the whole table!
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby greenoaks on Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:47 pm

chapcrap wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:For what is worth, if a player ask me if he can print one of my map to play on it with friends, I have zero problem to give him the permission. And i think it's the same for all the other mapmakers, i think.
I draw maps because I like to draw maps, it's not for money.

Rather, if the player has a bit of patience and he doesn't set a deadline, I would produce an high quality image to send to him. Then he is free to do what he wants with the image apart make profit or give it to someone else without ask.

Said that, I don't think people here is referring to one of my maps :mrgreen:

What do you think of asking mapmakers to provide such an image when their map is quenched?

i would be in favour of that.

i think it was natty that said a lot of quality is lost because the file size is so small.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:38 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:For what is worth, if a player ask me if he can print one of my map to play on it with friends, I have zero problem to give him the permission. And i think it's the same for all the other mapmakers, i think.
I draw maps because I like to draw maps, it's not for money.

Rather, if the player has a bit of patience and he doesn't set a deadline, I would produce an high quality image to send to him. Then he is free to do what he wants with the image apart make profit or give it to someone else without ask.

Said that, I don't think people here is referring to one of my maps :mrgreen:


You are what I like to call a "generous person" thenobodies and I think it's awesome that you would be so gracious. Incidentally, I would certainly consider some of your maps for this purpose.

72o wrote:If the map images can be provided in a vector format or other scalable image file, I can get them printed pretty cheap. My father-in-law is a photographer, and has the ability to print pretty large in-house, and can farm out large images cheaply.

He can make fathead-type vinyl cutouts also - that would be cool for a "poster" as well as a "game board" that could be stuck directly to the kitchen table. They are removable and repositionable ad infinitum. No more flipping the board over when you get mad, you'd have to flip the whole table!


Rofl at having to flip the whole table. :lol:
Sounds like a very good resource you've got there, 72o. I'm envious.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby 72o on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:01 pm

If someone will give me a photoshop or vector image of their map file I'll get a prototype made. I will make them at cost, I don't need to make any money off of it. I'd just like to help.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:18 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Perhaps CC should focus not on boards, but simply high quality posters. Who wouldn't want to hang a poster of their favorite map over their bed? And then, when you feel like it, you could always take down the map for redecoration and relocation to your table for a while.


--Andy

High quality laminated posters would be the best way around copyrights.
thenobodies80 wrote:For what is worth, if a player ask me if he can print one of my map to play on it with friends, I have zero problem to give him the permission. And i think it's the same for all the other mapmakers, i think.
I draw maps because I like to draw maps, it's not for money.

Rather, if the player has a bit of patience and he doesn't set a deadline, I would produce an high quality image to send to him. Then he is free to do what he wants with the image apart make profit or give it to someone else without ask.

Said that, I don't think people here is referring to one of my maps :mrgreen:

Same here. Give me some time and I can get a map made large enough for printing without the pretty graphics.
chapcrap wrote:What do you think of asking mapmakers to provide such an image when their map is quenched?

Its hard enough to get map makers to do some things now. I very much doubt you will get many saying yes to this.
greenoaks wrote:i would be in favour of that.
i think it was natty that said a lot of quality is lost because the file size is so small.

The site compresses our larger files. If you want any of mine, grab the file from the thread as that has not been compressed yet.
72o wrote:If someone will give me a photoshop or vector image of their map file I'll get a prototype made. I will make them at cost, I don't need to make any money off of it. I'd just like to help.

This is what I did. The main problem is text. Enlarging the text to a size that is good makes it unreadable. The maps would need to be redrawn larger, more simplistic and without the legend. This is why I chose to test on Jakarta as it has very little text. But on A3 it is playable and as long as you stick to 1v1 games, it works OK.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:12 pm

chapcrap wrote:What do you think of asking mapmakers to provide such an image when their map is quenched?


I don't know if everyone is willing to draw an high quality version, specially if you consider that develop a map is already a challenging task.
We already ask to mapmakers to develop 2 different map size so probably I wouldn't feel so good in adding de facto another version. Moreover a map quenched doesn't mean that there's automatically request for a printable HQ version by the users of this site.
I don't mind to do another version, but I can't speak for the others (few) mapmakers on this site. A thing is when you have to draw a map and you already know that when uploaded, it will be compressed to an absurd level and many details that cost us hours of work will be lost, and another thing is draw an HQ image, where the details don't get lost, so you need to be extremely picky during the development. It takes hours, additional hours of work...many hours.

So I'm extremely prudent in saying that everyone here is willing to do that for each map.

Instead, if we want to make it a procedure and the site can make a profit from it, the thing is different. As said, I don't mind to give to someone the permission to use my images to play with friends, but allow the site to make profit with my hard work is different.
Now before you say to me that the site already makes money with our maps, I would like to remind that we already receive our reward for producing maps and we receive it as soon as the map is uploaded, yeah it's just some free conquer credits and not real money...but who cares? It's always a reward, altought I do NOT suggest to anyone to draw a map just for that, make maps is a passion, something you need to love...credits are just an incentive. I prefer 1000 times more to receive a good feedback from players than the credits. I think it's a sort of "artist inside" (sorry intel :mrgreen: ) thing. We love when people like our creations....that's enough.
But I digress

If the site wants to create a such business i think that mapamkers would like to discuss some details with the admins. I think it's a step to follow before to set any type or requirement or request. Certainly it will make the thing more interesting but i still think not everyone will do that.

Now, I've read your question again and I have some additional thoughts:
- Our Dept. has the primary role to facilitate the map production, not make it harder.
- Our Dept. follow the maps from the moment they are posted in the drafting room to the moment they are quenched.
- The map agreement all mapmakers "sign" at least once, is between the CC Site and the CC user, the CAs have no role here.
- The current map agreement allows CC to use the imagery free of charge , as long as CC sees fit, on the CC website. (Note: Important it says on the CC website)

So, honestly...if CC wants to have HQ images from mapmakers to sell them, i think it's an admin duty to find out the possible best maps for this business, approach the mapmakers and deal with them. It's a thing between CC and the mapmakers...CAs have nothing to do with that imo. So I don't see how it should be an additional request to add to the current process. If there's demand for a such thing, if the site sees it as a good business then the site needs to find a way to create a such business without ask to volunteers. As said CC<->Mapmaker. (like it is with the other stuff with maps on it)
Add the step is only detrimental to the process and have less people who draw maps is not what we want, specially now that we are so few. When you start the map, in the moment you draw your first pixel, you know that you will spend the next 6-9 months on that project. And we're talking about non-HQ maps! Imagine how many would quit if I add a such request!

But probably I'm becoming boring and this post is too long...so before to click "submit" and have a long shower after a hard day of work, let me say that I'm happy to volunteer for CC, I'm happy to help mapmakers...but I want to have nothing to do with stuff related with zazzle or with money or other site, at least as foundry foreman. That's not my job here. :P

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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:37 pm

thenobodies80 hits it right on the head for the most part I'd say. I've always believed (and tried to impart as I exit soon), Volunteers should focus on the Community, and shouldn't be a part of worrying about the bottom line of CC or strategizing expansion into new revenue streams. Volunteers are here to serve and be a part of the Community, and that should definitely be their primary function. :D


--Andy
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby chapcrap on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:31 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:thenobodies80 hits it right on the head for the most part I'd say. I've always believed (and tried to impart as I exit soon), Volunteers should focus on the Community, and shouldn't be a part of worrying about the bottom line of CC or strategizing expansion into new revenue streams. Volunteers are here to serve and be a part of the Community, and that should definitely be their primary function. :D


--Andy

But the community wants some awesome maps for the table at home!!
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby greenoaks on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:41 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:thenobodies80 hits it right on the head for the most part I'd say. I've always believed (and tried to impart as I exit soon), Volunteers should focus on the Community, and shouldn't be a part of worrying about the bottom line of CC or strategizing expansion into new revenue streams. Volunteers are here to serve and be a part of the Community, and that should definitely be their primary function. :D


--Andy

and the community doesn't want CC to go bellyup.

a small income stream here, a small income stream there. these things add up to a vibrant site for all.
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Re: Large Printable Maps

Postby agentcom on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:34 am

Couple thoughts:

Even if some mapmakers would be willing to give away their stuff for free, I think that if CC is going to make some money off of it, the mapmakers should get their beaks wet.

I like the idea of posters. That's what I was getting at at first. I can't see any way that anyone (at least in the U.S.) could prevent you from selling your artwork, which is what that is.

Last thing, I went back and found DiM's HQ image of All Your Base Are Belong to Us ... I believe it's actually in that map thread, too. (He was complaining about it being compressed by the site.) Even his "HQ" image was illegible when you blow it up. The mapmakers would really have to go over the map again and re-insert text. I don't like the idea of removing the legends and keys from the map. If they want it to look good, they should probably re-do the borders and all the other small details that will get blurry when expanded. Those seem to me to be an essential feature. But if this was done those would need to be rewritten. That's fine if the mapmakers want to do it, but it's all the more reason that they should share in any profits.
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