Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

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What level should the ribbon be awarded at?

20
0
No votes
100
5
63%
200
0
No votes
400
3
38%
 
Total votes : 8

Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby chapcrap on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:26 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
qwert wrote:hmm, you talk like its easy to Kill 100 unique player in one map? Your explanation are not cover with fact ,and fact its that not easy to collect 100 UDP on 1 map. Are you try to do some math and stats? Do you know how much games you need to play to get 1 ribbon? Do you know how much games you need to play to achieve 10 ribbons?
When you talk, someone will really be in illusion that its very easy to kill 100, and that even 400 are easy task.

For 100 unique kills, I can easily see this becoming a trophy thing. You say do the math, well I did it. If I set up 15 8 player games, invite different people to those games and win all of them, I get the ribbon. So you want to award a ribbon for winning as little as 15 games. That is too low. And this is what 100 will make this. It will have players making private games, inviting lower ranks to get a ribbon. Even if they lose a few, I can see a lot of players getting it for as little as 20 games. So 20 games gets you one ribbon, 200 gets you ten. Considering I used to play 100+ games at a time, give me 3 weeks and I will have 10 ribbons. If we allow speed games, give me 3 days. Anyone who knows the really complicated maps, will be able to do this even faster.

You think you're good enough to win at that high a percentage? Use real arguments. There is no way you are going to win like that against all unique opponents. Let me give you a real stay that I stated earlier:

Of my maps with at least 100 unique kills, I've played at least 99 games on all of them. I believe that even with the most aggressive estimates, it would take at least 40 games and that is if you are playing unique people in every game, which is highly unlikely in itself.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:45 pm

OK, use my current win rate of 29%, in games that I play mostly, 8 player esc in fog on standard maps. That is the majority of maps on the site. So at 29% win rate, I can win a ribbon with 50 games if I follow what I said above. That is me alone. Some one with 60% win rate and plays mostly 1v1 will need to play around 180 games. Considering I can set up 50 games and invite whoever I want, I would bet that I will get ribbons easily on maps that I like at a pretty good rate.

Even on maps that I may not be so good at, 100 games and winning 15 of them is not that hard to do. I would easily guess a ribbon a month would be the norm for most players.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby chapcrap on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:13 pm

koontz1973 wrote:OK, use my current win rate of 29%, in games that I play mostly, 8 player esc in fog on standard maps. That is the majority of maps on the site. So at 29% win rate, I can win a ribbon with 50 games if I follow what I said above. That is me alone. Some one with 60% win rate and plays mostly 1v1 will need to play around 180 games. Considering I can set up 50 games and invite whoever I want, I would bet that I will get ribbons easily on maps that I like at a pretty good rate.

Even on maps that I may not be so good at, 100 games and winning 15 of them is not that hard to do. I would easily guess a ribbon a month would be the norm for most players.

I won't take 29% as your win rate for those games, because it's only 18%. I'll take that.

Secondly, if someone can pull off one of these maps every month, then so what? 20 years and they can finish all the maps... That is if we stop making them.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby qwertylpc on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:31 pm

i think 100 is to low to show mastery of a map, also 400 is to high, so why not settle at 200
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:41 pm

Even at 18%, I only need to play 20 more games. So what if someone can get one a month, I agree with that, but the problem is not one a month or one every two/three/four months. It is the value that should be placed onto these ribbons. The ribbons should be the gold standard for the maps. To get one shows you are bloody good at it, not that you have played (x) amount of games on it.

When you consider that I won my standard silver medal 3 months after joining and my gold medal 4 months after joining, I went from 100 unique kills to 400 in 6 weeks. That is 3 ribbons if I had played 3 maps only in that period.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby Qwert on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:18 pm

koontz1973 wrote:OK, use my current win rate of 29%, in games that I play mostly, 8 player esc in fog on standard maps. That is the majority of maps on the site. So at 29% win rate, I can win a ribbon with 50 games if I follow what I said above. That is me alone. Some one with 60% win rate and plays mostly 1v1 will need to play around 180 games. Considering I can set up 50 games and invite whoever I want, I would bet that I will get ribbons easily on maps that I like at a pretty good rate.

Even on maps that I may not be so good at, 100 games and winning 15 of them is not that hard to do. I would easily guess a ribbon a month would be the norm for most players.


Wow,when you say,its look so easy-15 games with 8 players, and in all games every person need to be unique. And in last ,you need just to win all 15 games. 100% wins.
Most succesfull player with most unique kills are Johnyrocket24, and even he with 15000 kils can only achive 10 ribbons, but you can even be better then hem???
finished games map rank:
Highlanderattack(35655 finished games)-4015 UDP(total)------- 4 ribbons((above 400UDP)----30 ribbons(above 100UDP)

Now when i look on hes minimum games for 100UDP for one map are 137 games(73 wins) .
Your theory are somehow close to be Fantasy, because its not possibile that each month play 50 games on one map,and to achive 100UDP, and like someone say,you need to play 20 years to achive 200 ribbons, and its hell of a work.
We can go like these up and down, but your argument are very weak
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby qwertylpc on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:43 pm

That is why it should be either 200 or 250
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby greenoaks on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:35 pm

stop thinking this is something someone will achieve a ribbon on every map for and use it as something to indicate outstanding performance on that 1 map.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:39 pm

greenoaks wrote:stop thinking this is something someone will achieve a ribbon on every map for and use it as something to indicate outstanding performance on that 1 map.

And that is what I am trying to get you to see it that way. Winning 15 8 player private games, using the scoreboard to invite players is not something that hard to do.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby greenoaks on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:30 am

koontz1973 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:stop thinking this is something someone will achieve a ribbon on every map for and use it as something to indicate outstanding performance on that 1 map.

And that is what I am trying to get you to see it that way. Winning 15 8 player private games, using the scoreboard to invite players is not something that hard to do.

me :?

i've been saying 400 since i joined this thread. however i would prefer a tiered system that matched the medals.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby betiko on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:52 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:stop thinking this is something someone will achieve a ribbon on every map for and use it as something to indicate outstanding performance on that 1 map.

And that is what I am trying to get you to see it that way. Winning 15 8 player private games, using the scoreboard to invite players is not something that hard to do.


enough talking. koontz, pass from theory to practice. I just mapranked you and there are 8 maps you've never played (2 of which are not counted)
Cricket,Cuban Missile Crisis,Dawn Of Ages,Operation Drug War,Third Crusade,New Zealand,2010 World Cup,Saint Patrick's Day

pick the one you want out of the 6 remaining and I give you 2 month to reach 100 unique kills, I guarantee you will not make it. challenge accepted?
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:23 am

betiko wrote:challenge accepted?

Accepted. But I have Madrid due out to play hopefully this week. Next week at the latest so will do it on that.

You say two months, what do I get when I do it? ;)
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:33 am

koontz1973 wrote:
betiko wrote:challenge accepted?

Accepted. But I have Madrid due out to play hopefully this week. Next week at the latest so will do it on that.

You say two months, what do I get when I do it? ;)


let's see other people's opinion, but I'd say we would agree on 400 :lol:
point is that people don't always play cc, so 2 month is 2 month. let's say you got till end of march. which of the 6 maps do you chose? number of games needed for that acheivement will be looked at carefully! :twisted:

side note: curious to see what that experiment on 100 will do. note that 100 in 2 month doesn't mean 400 in 8 month because of all duplicates and the difficulty of being consistent over a longer period of time.
nevertheless, 8 month x 230 is quite complicated within a lifetime!!
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby Qwert on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:09 am

Cricket,Cuban Missile Crisis,Dawn Of Ages,Operation Drug War,Third Crusade,New Zealand

hmm these will be interesting experiment, theoreticaly koonts need to play 15 games with 8 unique player on each map,, these its 15x6=90 games,,, only second part of theory its hard to happened- all 90 wins .
I think that these its not possible to achieve , but if you give 1 month for 1 map, then these could be possible.
Betiko will win these bet ,100% sure ;)

For example you reach 107 UDP on Europe, but you play 90 games and win 30, and these its your best win % for over 100 UDP, and for these achiwement you play 2 years. Statistic are on betiko side ;)

What to say good luck on these , and if you achive these,then you will be in combination for another award-Consecutive win medal :)
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:30 am

As I said, I will do it for Madrid as soon as it comes out. Then we have a firm start date and I always play lots on my maps as soon as they come out.

qwert, you mentioned Europe, that map was played a lot with small games as well. I only played it 4 times at my preferred setting so it does not count. But fine, as soon as Madrid comes out to play, I will make games, invite players and set of. betiko did not set a limit on games played, just a time frame. 2 months to get 100 unique kills is plenty of time.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby Qwert on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:50 am

koontz1973 wrote:As I said, I will do it for Madrid as soon as it comes out. Then we have a firm start date and I always play lots on my maps as soon as they come out.

qwert, you mentioned Europe, that map was played a lot with small games as well. I only played it 4 times at my preferred setting so it does not count. But fine, as soon as Madrid comes out to play, I will make games, invite players and set of. betiko did not set a limit on games played, just a time frame. 2 months to get 100 unique kills is plenty of time.


wait a moment- 2 month to get 100UDP on 1 map??? I though that bet are on 6 maps not 1 map?

Well of course that these its possible , if you play only on 1 map.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:41 am

qwert wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:As I said, I will do it for Madrid as soon as it comes out. Then we have a firm start date and I always play lots on my maps as soon as they come out.

qwert, you mentioned Europe, that map was played a lot with small games as well. I only played it 4 times at my preferred setting so it does not count. But fine, as soon as Madrid comes out to play, I will make games, invite players and set of. betiko did not set a limit on games played, just a time frame. 2 months to get 100 unique kills is plenty of time.


wait a moment- 2 month to get 100UDP on 1 map??? I though that bet are on 6 maps not 1 map?

Well of course that these its possible , if you play only on 1 map.

Ah, we have you now admitting that someone can get the 100 kills on a map if they want in a reasonable time frame. But lets see how long it takes me to do it on Madrid.

This is one of my points. 100 unique kills on one map may not of been done in the past but we have not had a ribbon in the past to collect. As soon as the ribbons are announced, players will switch games to maps they are close to the 100, just to get them, and then hit the maps they are close, and then maps they would not normally play. Ribbons in the first months will be grabbed at a very fast rate. If I looked and found I was close to the 100 in 3 or 4 maps, I would play those only to get it and then switch maps. Look how many medal hunters we have. As soon as a new medal comes out, hundreds of games are made to get the gold. It took only a few weeks for the first trench gold to be awarded and that is 400 unique kills on a very slow setting.

You have set the bar too low. 100 and players will scramble to get them. 400, players will still go for them but at a much slower rate and only on maps that they enjoy.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby chapcrap on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:56 am

I already admitted that you might be able to do one a month. But, like I said, it's gonna take 20 years to complete all maps that way.
[quote="chapcrap]Secondly, if someone can pull off one of these maps every month, then so what? 20 years and they can finish all the maps... That is if we stop making them.[/quote]

So, we get a few ribbon chasers and they get up to what 40, 50 ribbons? Who cares? 100 UDP shows proficiency in my mind. It's not just about what's easy and hard to get. It's also about what the achievement is for. If it's for being good at a map, 100 UDP should probably suffice.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:32 pm

chapcrap wrote:I already admitted that you might be able to do one a month. But, like I said, it's gonna take 20 years to complete all maps that way.
[quote="chapcrap]Secondly, if someone can pull off one of these maps every month, then so what? 20 years and they can finish all the maps... That is if we stop making them.[/quote]

So, we get a few ribbon chasers and they get up to what 40, 50 ribbons? Who cares? 100 UDP shows proficiency in my mind. It's not just about what's easy and hard to get. It's also about what the achievement is for. If it's for being good at a map, 100 UDP should probably suffice.[/quote][/quote]

But I am crap at Europe, but according to qwert, I would get a ribbon for it. How can that be so? We already have medals that show a proficiency (bronze) at a setting. If these do not go the same way as greenoaks wanted, then they should be more than proficiency, they should show mastery. With 100, you get players who have been around a while getting them for playing a map every now and again (me and Europe). That does not show mastery or even proficiency, it shows I have played the map a few times.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby Qwert on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:51 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
qwert wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:As I said, I will do it for Madrid as soon as it comes out. Then we have a firm start date and I always play lots on my maps as soon as they come out.

qwert, you mentioned Europe, that map was played a lot with small games as well. I only played it 4 times at my preferred setting so it does not count. But fine, as soon as Madrid comes out to play, I will make games, invite players and set of. betiko did not set a limit on games played, just a time frame. 2 months to get 100 unique kills is plenty of time.


wait a moment- 2 month to get 100UDP on 1 map??? I though that bet are on 6 maps not 1 map?

Well of course that these its possible , if you play only on 1 map.

Ah, we have you now admitting that someone can get the 100 kills on a map if they want in a reasonable time frame. But lets see how long it takes me to do it on Madrid.

This is one of my points. 100 unique kills on one map may not of been done in the past but we have not had a ribbon in the past to collect. As soon as the ribbons are announced, players will switch games to maps they are close to the 100, just to get them, and then hit the maps they are close, and then maps they would not normally play. Ribbons in the first months will be grabbed at a very fast rate. If I looked and found I was close to the 100 in 3 or 4 maps, I would play those only to get it and then switch maps. Look how many medal hunters we have. As soon as a new medal comes out, hundreds of games are made to get the gold. It took only a few weeks for the first trench gold to be awarded and that is 400 unique kills on a very slow setting.

You have set the bar too low. 100 and players will scramble to get them. 400, players will still go for them but at a much slower rate and only on maps that they enjoy.

Well i dont create sugestion where i only give chance for small number of players to be in combination to have these award,, and what abouth fremiums? Are you going to discriminate these players with 400UDP?
With 400UDP how much player will be in combination to get these Awards?
according scoreboard

5 player -over 30000 finished game
15 player-over 20000 finished games
130 player-over 10000 finished games
470 player- between 5000 and 10000 finished games
244 player- between 4000 and 5000 finished games
360 player- between 3000 and 4000 finished games
638 player- between 2000 and 3000 finished games
1274 player- between 1000 and 2000 finished games
12639 player- belove 1000 finished games
----------------------------------------------------
according scoreboard medal awarded
35 player above 100 medals
299 player between 50 and 100
226 player between 40 and 50
406 player between 30 and 40
1042 player between 20 and 30
9652 player between 1 and 19
4095 player -zero medal
---------------------------------------
according medal page

medal issue 323025
recipient 205507
average 1,57 medal per 1 recipient
-------------------------------------------
if we take total number of all members then these its 0,52 medal per 1 member.

well i hope that these statistic will show that 400UDP will only be usefull for small number of players,and 100UDP will be right number that all player( fremium and premium) will get chance to get these award.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby Qwert on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:57 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
chapcrap wrote:I already admitted that you might be able to do one a month. But, like I said, it's gonna take 20 years to complete all maps that way.
[quote="chapcrap]Secondly, if someone can pull off one of these maps every month, then so what? 20 years and they can finish all the maps... That is if we stop making them.[/quote]

So, we get a few ribbon chasers and they get up to what 40, 50 ribbons? Who cares? 100 UDP shows proficiency in my mind. It's not just about what's easy and hard to get. It's also about what the achievement is for. If it's for being good at a map, 100 UDP should probably suffice.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
But I am crap at Europe, but according to qwert, I would get a ribbon for it. How can that be so? We already have medals that show a proficiency (bronze) at a setting. If these do not go the same way as greenoaks wanted, then they should be more than proficiency, they should show mastery. With 100, you get players who have been around a while getting them for playing a map every now and again (me and Europe). That does not show mastery or even proficiency, it shows I have played the map a few times.[/quote]


100UDP will give maps promotion, and more people will start to be interest to play other maps to. with 400UDP you don't change nothing, because like i show above, only 1 % of players will be in chance to achieve these ribbon.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby chapcrap on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:03 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
chapcrap wrote:I already admitted that you might be able to do one a month. But, like I said, it's gonna take 20 years to complete all maps that way.
[quote="chapcrap]Secondly, if someone can pull off one of these maps every month, then so what? 20 years and they can finish all the maps... That is if we stop making them.[/quote]

So, we get a few ribbon chasers and they get up to what 40, 50 ribbons? Who cares? 100 UDP shows proficiency in my mind. It's not just about what's easy and hard to get. It's also about what the achievement is for. If it's for being good at a map, 100 UDP should probably suffice.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
But I am crap at Europe, but according to qwert, I would get a ribbon for it. How can that be so? We already have medals that show a proficiency (bronze) at a setting. If these do not go the same way as greenoaks wanted, then they should be more than proficiency, they should show mastery. With 100, you get players who have been around a while getting them for playing a map every now and again (me and Europe). That does not show mastery or even proficiency, it shows I have played the map a few times.[/quote]

I understand that argument. You're still crap at it after that many games? What about 200? I feel like 400 is pretty high.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:15 pm

soo what you are saying koontz is that it would encourage people to play suddenly lots of games on less used maps... I think that would be great!

and yeah 100 unique kills on madrid in 2 month will be hell of easy (but too repetitive imo). but to tell the truth I'm more interested in the end result: how many games and how long will it take koontz to acheive it.

ok here is an example. I really feel like I'm a good player on das schloss. We are a small community of around 10-15 players to play it very often on speed games. If you set one up, you know it will be one of these guys that will join for sure, or ocasionally some other guy. I even keep up scores with players I often play against. I played 360 games on it and feel like it's really a lot, with 61% win rate (I also play it 8 players assassin) and only have... 175 unique kills! now that's a map I've been playing for 2 years, how am I supposed to ever reach 400 at this pace? basically playing often better players rather than farming noobs with invites would mean I'm not good enough for a gold ribbon on that map?

other solution is just to go for 10-50-200. that seems fair to me.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:34 pm

qwertylpc wrote:i think 100 is to low to show mastery of a map, also 400 is to high, so why not settle at 200

200 sounds good.

I'll take myself as an example. I have 180 unique kills on Classic, 130 on Arms Race, and 98 on my Europe1914. That's after 26 months on this site and 4499 games played.

At 100 level I would have two ribbons right now and I could have three by tomorrow. At 200 level I would have none right now, but I could plausibly get one withing a couple weeks if I focused and I could have a couple more in a couple months. That is good, it is a challenge.

koontz1973 wrote:As I said, I will do it for Madrid as soon as it comes out. Then we have a firm start date and I always play lots on my maps as soon as they come out.

qwert, you mentioned Europe, that map was played a lot with small games as well. I only played it 4 times at my preferred setting so it does not count. But fine, as soon as Madrid comes out to play, I will make games, invite players and set of. betiko did not set a limit on games played, just a time frame. 2 months to get 100 unique kills is plenty of time.

Of course it can be done. But any medal can be farmed, if people are willing to act like farmers and go after a single goal. For most people though, who are playing a variety of games, 100 would be a lot. These ribbons should be achievable by normal people, who do not focus on one map but play a variety, who do not abuse the invite system but just make games and let them fill, with the result that many of their games may include zero unique kills but only the same players as the game before. Setting the bar so high that the average player can't reach it is defeating the idea.

Look at my stats above. I have 4499 games complete, with a win rate of 34%, obviously across a wide variety of maps. At the 100 threshhold, I would have 2 of these ribbons and be close to a third. At the 200 threshhold I would have zero.
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Re: Unique Map Achievement -Ribbon Award-poll

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:39 pm

But that is the main point. A ribbon for a map should not be given out to every player freeium or premium. It should take years of normal play to even get it. It should show a mastery of that map. Remember, I am a player that likes new things and I am talking myself out of a ribbon or two here. But to give a ribbon to a player just for playing Das Schlob like betiko is giving away something for nothing.

Dukasaur and a couple of others say 200 is a figure between ours. So I will lower mine to 200. 200 still seems low to me but as it has been said, this should be achievable by most players.

Of course it can be done. But any medal can be farmed, if people are willing to act like farmers and go after a single goal.

This was never my plan with Madrid. I would invite all my own rank + or - 1 rank as well. I am not going up against the admin accused of farming for this.
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