Divide off topics further

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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:25 am

Gillipig wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Exactly -- it's already sorted pretty well ;D

BMO

agent was arguing that it wasn't sorted at all and should stay that way, if we've already started sorting the forum we might as well do it properly. Which would mean that politics should get a subforum of it's own and probably the same with religion and science. So hah..... I'm right again :)!

We don't want to be running a public library over there. Forum games is seperate as a convenience to people who play them, so they don't have to search the whole forum for their thread. Other than that, leave it alone.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby chapcrap on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:14 am

I haven't really heard a good argument for leaving it alone and I believe there is a good argument for changing it.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby greenoaks on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:01 pm

Gillipig wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Exactly -- it's already sorted pretty well ;D

BMO

agent was arguing that it wasn't sorted at all and should stay that way, if we've already started sorting the forum we might as well do it properly. Which would mean that politics should get a subforum of it's own and probably the same with religion and science. So hah..... I'm right again :)!

OT is sorted into discussion threads and games. that's enough.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby greenoaks on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:02 pm

chapcrap wrote:I haven't really heard a good argument for leaving it alone and I believe there is a good argument for changing it.

then you should vocalise your belief because no one else has provided a good argument for changing it.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Gillipig on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:16 pm

greenoaks wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Exactly -- it's already sorted pretty well ;D

BMO

agent was arguing that it wasn't sorted at all and should stay that way, if we've already started sorting the forum we might as well do it properly. Which would mean that politics should get a subforum of it's own and probably the same with religion and science. So hah..... I'm right again :)!

OT is sorted into discussion threads and games. that's enough.

Tell me, have you ever even visited the off topics? Or is this just another thing you comment on without knowing anything about?
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby chapcrap on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:32 pm

greenoaks wrote:
chapcrap wrote:I haven't really heard a good argument for leaving it alone and I believe there is a good argument for changing it.

then you should vocalise your belief because no one else has provided a good argument for changing it.

I rarely go to OT, because there are way too many threads to try to keep track of. If it were sorted more, I think I would go more. Because of that, I also believe that others may find it a place they go more often as well. So, if more people are wanted in OT, then it's good. If more people are not wanted, then it's bad. That's my take.

As for the opposition, the reason is that change is bad. At least, that's what I've gathered so far. Here's an actual good argument for the opposition: It would take a crap ton of work to sort all of those old threads. That's a great argument for the opposition. However, all you need is a volunteer and then that argument falls through as well. For the record, I will not volunteer for that.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby rdsrds2120 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:47 pm

Here's a good set of reasons for not dividing the Off-Topics forum Further:

1) It's not very active as is. Debanding a low-activity forum into multiple, smaller forums, could result in more and less active forums.
2) I posit that there is a direct correlation on how the number of clicks needed to get somewhere affects the activity of that area. A 3rd level subforum further dividing something that isn't very big seems to be work for the sake of being work
3) The volunteerism required to sorts many, many pages of threads into their appropriate forum, many of which count as both, since threads take directions and go off-topic from the original post.
4) In junction with 2, a sort of "one-stop shopping" approach is arguably better than forcing users to look in different places.

BMO
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby chapcrap on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:20 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:Here's a good set of reasons for not dividing the Off-Topics forum Further:

1) It's not very active as is. Debanding a low-activity forum into multiple, smaller forums, could result in more and less active forums.
2) I posit that there is a direct correlation on how the number of clicks needed to get somewhere affects the activity of that area. A 3rd level subforum further dividing something that isn't very big seems to be work for the sake of being work
3) The volunteerism required to sorts many, many pages of threads into their appropriate forum, many of which count as both, since threads take directions and go off-topic from the original post.
4) In junction with 2, a sort of "one-stop shopping" approach is arguably better than forcing users to look in different places.

BMO

Is it not active? I always feel like it's really active when I go in there. Maybe that's a perspective thing.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Gillipig on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:47 pm

chapcrap wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Here's a good set of reasons for not dividing the Off-Topics forum Further:

1) It's not very active as is. Debanding a low-activity forum into multiple, smaller forums, could result in more and less active forums.
2) I posit that there is a direct correlation on how the number of clicks needed to get somewhere affects the activity of that area. A 3rd level subforum further dividing something that isn't very big seems to be work for the sake of being work
3) The volunteerism required to sorts many, many pages of threads into their appropriate forum, many of which count as both, since threads take directions and go off-topic from the original post.
4) In junction with 2, a sort of "one-stop shopping" approach is arguably better than forcing users to look in different places.

BMO

Is it not active? I always feel like it's really active when I go in there. Maybe that's a perspective thing.

It's way more active than general discussion. Several times more active. Check the number of threads that have been posted in the last week in GD and compare it to OT.
GD has about half a page of relatively active threads, OT has two pages, four times as many as GD. And that's not counting in the forum games.
So no, I highly doubt OT would be killed by more division of it's threads.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby rdsrds2120 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:35 pm

It's not active enough to sustain activity upon division. Or, most accurately, the benefit of being a little more organized isn't worth the trade-off.

BMO
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby greenoaks on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:05 pm

Gillipig wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Exactly -- it's already sorted pretty well ;D

BMO

agent was arguing that it wasn't sorted at all and should stay that way, if we've already started sorting the forum we might as well do it properly. Which would mean that politics should get a subforum of it's own and probably the same with religion and science. So hah..... I'm right again :)!

OT is sorted into discussion threads and games. that's enough.

Tell me, have you ever even visited the off topics? Or is this just another thing you comment on without knowing anything about?

i am there everyday and have made over 750 posts, mostly i just read other's posts although sometimes i vote in the polls - not kittens though.

i have also reported your posts there on many occassions resulting in a vacation for you. :lol:
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Gillipig on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:58 am

greenoaks wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Exactly -- it's already sorted pretty well ;D

BMO

agent was arguing that it wasn't sorted at all and should stay that way, if we've already started sorting the forum we might as well do it properly. Which would mean that politics should get a subforum of it's own and probably the same with religion and science. So hah..... I'm right again :)!

OT is sorted into discussion threads and games. that's enough.

Tell me, have you ever even visited the off topics? Or is this just another thing you comment on without knowing anything about?

i am there everyday and have made over 750 posts, mostly i just read other's posts although sometimes i vote in the polls - not kittens though.

i have also reported your posts there on many occassions resulting in a vacation for you. :lol:

So you basically just go there just to report my posts, lmao, get a life.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Neoteny on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:45 pm

This is probably the worst idea I've heard in this young year. It's hard for me to put into words how bad it is.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby MoB Deadly on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:52 pm

nietzsche wrote:

+
chapcrap wrote:


And as RDS said, more clicks will make things harder, especially for mobile devices
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:10 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:It's not active enough to sustain activity upon division. Or, most accurately, the benefit of being a little more organized isn't worth the trade-off.

BMO


I land on this side of the argument. Forum subdivision almost never engenders extra activity, and this is currently a bigger issue than the fact that some people have to scroll past threads that do not interest them.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Gillipig on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:56 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:It's not active enough to sustain activity upon division. Or, most accurately, the benefit of being a little more organized isn't worth the trade-off.

BMO


I land on this side of the argument. Forum subdivision almost never engenders extra activity, and this is currently a bigger issue than the fact that some people have to scroll past threads that do not interest them.


OT is a very active place. The risk that it turns into a silent grave just because threads are more divided than they already are, is minimal.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Neoteny on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:33 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:It's not active enough to sustain activity upon division. Or, most accurately, the benefit of being a little more organized isn't worth the trade-off.

BMO


I land on this side of the argument. Forum subdivision almost never engenders extra activity, and this is currently a bigger issue than the fact that some people have to scroll past threads that do not interest them.


Apparently having to scroll is enough to keep people away.

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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby chapcrap on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:53 pm

MoB Deadly wrote:And as RDS said, more clicks will make things harder, especially for mobile devices

Not saying that it isn't a little more difficult, but it actually doesn't have to be more clicks to get to where you want to go. You can see the subforums from the main forum page.

However, it sounds like no one wants this except me (who doesn't really go to OT) and Gillipig. This is close to being rejected I think. I'll wait before we move it though.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:53 am

Why is dividing OT a bad idea?

1. rds makes several points which were completely unaddressed. Instead, the opposition could only muster a weak argument about future imagined activity.

2. The consequences of disturbing a spontaneous order such as OT are poorly understood from the central planner's (Gilligan's) perspective. Think: Soviet Union, and I'll provide more examples:

3. I've discussed a similar topic with non-CC forum hosts and designers. One major problem is the consequences of categorization. For example, constantly framing threads into specific subfora denies the variety of topics which can be discussed within a thread. In Off-Topics, going off-topic is informally acceptable because the benefits offset the costs.

How do I know this? Because the members of OT continually express their preferences through their own posting behavior--which unsurprisingly favors flexible threads. Denying this profitable opportunity, which many enjoy, would ruin the vitality, the spontaneity, and the pure joy of lurking and/or directly participating in OT.

4. Furthermore, this newly enforced policy imposes unnecessary costs on the users' incentives because the Dividers' Rules will remain ambiguous, and enforcement will be uncertain. Jokes and small comments on topic X could easily construed as Political, Religious, or Whatever, thus would become grounds for a ban. Ridiculous. Why burden the community and especially the mods will another jumbled set of rules?

5. The division of OT is only supported by a loud, bumbling minority. I hardly need to comment in any "Divide OT" thread because my fellow ConquerClubbers are already there--rallying against that "tyranny of the minority." (ITT, here, and many more).

6. Why do some ITT continue to ignore the preferences of the majority anyway? Clearly, dividing OT is not the preferred choice, yet the Dividers and their one or two cohorts still presume that they know what is best for the OT community. Nonsense.

7. Good Intentions, Bad Outcomes. It is too easy for the Dividers to sit back in the chair, and think, "Gee, this sounds great. I only expect great gains with my utopian vision of a Divided OT." How self-serving! But more importantly, this vision unintentionally ignores the people's preferences, which have been unwittingly replaced by the Divider's preferences.

(Note how easily the Dividers can gloss over rds' points and the concerns of the majority. AND, note how Gillipig slips this suggestion in here without informing the OT community. He went behind our backs, which may be a sign of a dishonest, person--thus, his position lacks credibility).

Proper reflection reveals this implicit replacement of the majority's preferences, which if ignored, will come into conflict with the delusional vision of the Dividers' plan. Conflict, no matter how seemingly minor or ignored, is not conducive to an enjoyable and healthy community.

8. Spontaneous orders are subtle and require intensive deliberation before one knee-jerks his way into dividing OT. Without understanding the spontaneous process and its evident benefits, then one will unfortunately create another "good intentions, bad outcomes" story.

9. One does not simply plan the OT; it grows.


Dividing OT is unnecessary and would forever be a waste of valuable CC resources. All ConquerClubbers are welcome in OT and are free to express themselves--within a reasonably enforced set of rules. These rules over time have been modified by the OT community--without the need of a suggestions forum and without the help of that loud minority. Introducing new and unpopular rules like dividing will only incur a net-cost on the community.

The people have spoken, and the Off-Topics Community shall remain undivided and relatively self-governing. The Dividers need only to give up their reckless crusade, dismount from their high horses, and join us as we play in our sunny community with its rolling green hills of lulz and serious business.



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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Gillipig on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:55 am

BigBallinStalin wrote: note how Gillipig slips this suggestion in here without informing the OT community. He went behind our backs, which may be a sign of a dishonest, person--thus, his position lacks credibility).

#-o viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184581&hilit=divide+off

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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:02 pm

Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: note how Gillipig slips this suggestion in here without informing the OT community. He went behind our backs, which may be a sign of a dishonest, person--thus, his position lacks credibility).

#-o https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... divide+off


Ah, the "maybe" has become a "definitely not," but thanks for not summarizing our views or even addressing the arguments from that thread ITT. Still seems sneaky, but--regardless--your suggestion fails for reasons already explained.

If the arguments against dividing OT cannot be successfully countered, then we can safely place the Dividers' suggestions into the Rejected Suggestions section.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby kentington on Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:23 pm

If BBS' long post is too daunting to attempt a reply, then here is a little sum-up.

OT has a flow. Feel the flow, go with the flow. i.e. If you have a river and you split it up into different channels there is less volume in those split channels than the main flow. These split channels taper off. Bottle neck, choke, and suffocate all come to mind.

Mindless hours of work that could be better spent on beneficial suggestions.

OT is the only place where you can post random crap in a thread and it is appreciated. Why ruin this? It will result in bans.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby blakebowling on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:47 pm

The Regulars have spoken, this is a bad idea.

I'm moving this to REJECTED.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby notyou2 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:31 pm

Not so hasty.

What if we divided the users?





For example, we give Phatty his own forum and everyone else remains in OT. It needs to be made that OT people can't go to Phattyland and Phatty can't go to OT. If Phatty gets lonely, send Nightstrike in with him.
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Re: Divide off topics further

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:28 pm

notyou2 wrote:Not so hasty.

What if we divided the users?





For example, we give Phatty his own forum and everyone else remains in OT. It needs to be made that OT people can't go to Phattyland and Phatty can't go to OT. If Phatty gets lonely, send Nightstrike in with him.

We just had three months without Phatscotty and it was boring as hell.

Whether you like him or not, you have to admit that he devotes a lot of energy to OT.
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