Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v 1

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Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v 1

Postby random21 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:01 pm

Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v 1
  • My idea is to give guaranteed set to player 2 upon 3 turns. And guaranteeing 1st player will not get a set until after third turn. For example: 2nd player gets 2 of one colour, or 2 different colours on first turn. On third turn, the program automatically gives them a third of a single colour card, or gives them a mixed set. Alternately, for 1st player, whatever the first 2 cards, the 3 card will not produce a set. So 1st player has advantage of first turn, but can not rely on cards, 2nd player can. I realize this is mostly influential for flat rate, and 1 v 1 for some. But still.

maps with 1 v 1, spoils
  • Right now, a lot of maps give 1st player a big advantage. I.e. a map where each player in 1 v 1 is given 15 territories, or any number whereby 1st player can take one or two territories and drop the 2nd players troop income immediately on first turn. Hence, the entire game is slanted to 1st player advantage. If 2nd player is guaranteed spoils, there may be a way to offset this and create some balance.

creates better option for game settings
  • The community will benefit with a more predictably balanced game setting if it is achieved with these settings, allowing more free play. Second player can rely on a larger troop income with a few turns, whereas 1st player will definitely wait. Which set 2nd player gets is not guaranteed, it could be reds, blues, or greens, or mixed. It is simply determined that the first 2 random cards will lead to a fixed third card set.
Last edited by random21 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v

Postby random21 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:05 pm

Just a sum up, I am looking for a default balanced setting for 1 v 1. This may be in a flat rate context for optimized results.. not escalating, or no spoils. Where this doesn't apply so much. And more generally 1 v 1. Not necessarily doubles or above.

This might take away 'randomness', but these are chosen settings players would agree to pursuing better balance. Therefore, decided upon going into the game. Just like dropped bonuses ruin a game, we are gearing this towards a more fixed game that allows for gameplay on both sides.

Going into the game, this is the trade off, who ever goes first... gets to go first. Whoever goes second will have a trade in by round 3. For flat rate this is ideal, it is not guaranteed mixed, or even blue, it could be red. But they will have a set to help them catch up.
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Re: Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v

Postby chapcrap on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:55 pm

This wouldn't really make the game play out fairly because in the second player will know that the first player doesn't have a set after 3 cards and he does. It creates an advantage for the second player. This is especially true if the first player has a round of bad dice and doesn't get a card in one of the first couple of rounds.
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Re: Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v

Postby random21 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:49 pm

hmm true. I suppose especially for maps where the initial troop income is 3. And best odds are 6 stack vs 3 stack, which bad dice can ruin easily enough with just a couple bad roles.

I'm still thinking there has to be something that can be tweaked to level the playing field even a little for 2nd player.

It might be penalizing 1st player too much with the guarantee knowledge of trade in as you state as well. Tactics and troop deployment/reinforcement could easily be altered in preparation, especially if say first random card is blue, then you know you have mixed or blue set. And if it's red, it's either best case scenario mixed, or red... So not really good at all (i mean in that it is huge disadvantage because things can be planned and strategically positioned based on knowing)

haha, at least we didn't waste time with this thread, and got to the meat of the problems with this suggestion head on.

I will see if any other idea for balancing 1st and 2nd player moves can be thought up.

What about a mock deployment, with no potential for attack? The first player goes, but can't actually attack. Instead they get half troop deployment rounded down, for an initial defensive deployment. So say on maps where you get initial 3 troops, you can place 1 troop defensively. But can't make attacks. Essentially, it's the second player getting a small head start with a half man deployment rounded down, because they can make attacks. If initial troops deployment is six, first player to move (in reality second player) just gets an advanced defensive deployment of half = 3, to place as he'd like.

If this seems unfair, what about the same idea, except 1 troop fort for defence. So no initial deployment, except you get to make a reinforcement of your choice before the first player can move and make an attack.

Or both, you get half deployment, and 1 reinforcement. But 0 attacks.

I guess bad die rolls are always a risk. Maybe it's only options for where troop deployment are larger than three. In games where you get like 5 plus men initially, it is rarer for bad dice to be an issue as such.

hmm
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Re: Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:36 pm

There are various suggestions that have attempted to deal with the issue of how to balance out the first turn advantage. I'll update this post in the next day or two when I get around to it; it might help you put together some new idea.
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Re: Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v

Postby random21 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:30 pm

I am looking for something that works in theory.

I.e. bad die rolls, and bad drops, or super good die rolls, and super good drops depending on how you look at it, are not my concern.

There will always be beginnings where 1st player may be able to take an above or below average number of territories etc, or have drops where he can easily gain bonuses, or deploy in a manner that finishes the game almost immediately.

This can not be changed. (at least is not the purpose of this thread, directly)

However, I am looking for something that offers a balanced version. Even if we were to specifically create a specific 1 v 1 settings of its own kind, or a board that is just suited for this purpose. Something for balanced 1 v 1 , where 1st and 2nd turn offer valid gameplay.

- An idea from playing risk in younger years, I don't know if it was an actual rule, but we always played that on your first turn everyone got equal amount starting troops. I.e. on drop all players had 13, so everyone would receive minimum 4 on their first turn in say a standard 4 player game.

- After first turn, then you calculate based on number of territories how many people get. But on everyone's first turn, the starting troops can not be changed even with losses.

Does this have some potential? In maps with more than 3, you 2nd player never has to deal with territory losses than lowers their first turn initial troop count.
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Re: Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v

Postby random21 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:05 pm

An additional thought: I will resolve this issue at least to some degree! I am committed!

What about a future potential setting: *Sparring Match*

In this gameplay feature, a player sets up a game to their suited style: i.e. deployment, reinforcement settings etc.

From here, the computer randomly generates the board, and creates 2 identical games where each player receives 1st turn and 2nd respectively in each game.

Game one features player X as 1st player, game two features player X as 2nd player, and vice versa for player Y.

Optional: The game generates the identical map for either side. I.e. the board is repeated, and all that is done is giving each player 'red' so to speak.

This can be expanded for other types. So... in a standard 1 v 1, obviously two boards are creating. In sparring match, for instance, in a standard 4 player map you could have the setting generate 4 boards, where each player gets first turn. And the positions cycle through for each player, i.e. in game 1, player X goes 1, Y. 2. Z 3. A 4. In game 3, player Y goes 1, Z 2. A 3, and X 4, In game 3, player Z 1, A 2, X 3, Y 4. game 4, A 1, X2, Y3 Z4th. Etc.

This resolves the immediate issue of rematch. There is essentially always a rematch.

Sometimes player X goes first, and Y asks for a rematch, but player X can still draw random 1st turn again in that rematch, and the end goal is not satisfied for balance.
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Re: Balancing 1st and 2nd player moves with spoils. i.e. 1 v

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:40 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:There are various suggestions that have attempted to deal with the issue of how to balance out the first turn advantage. I'll update this post in the next day or two when I get around to it; it might help you put together some new idea.


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