Break up the Conquer medal

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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby SaMejoHn on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:02 pm

none of this makes sense...conquerors arent the only people who cheat lol
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:03 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
nicestash wrote:The problem is that some people will lose a ton of points on assassin and once their score is low, get them all back on standard (or something along those lines) and so they could be the king of standard with a very low win percent on the map and as long as their score is low enough, they'll keep gaining points.


This pretty much devastates the idea, I think. The only way to get around this would be to use win percentage as the metric, rather than points.



Win rates me nothing. Someone who plays 8 man games will have a much lower win rate than say someone who plays team games.
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby nicestash on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:05 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
nicestash wrote:The problem is that some people will lose a ton of points on assassin and once their score is low, get them all back on standard (or something along those lines) and so they could be the king of standard with a very low win percent on the map and as long as their score is low enough, they'll keep gaining points.


This pretty much devastates the idea, I think. The only way to get around this would be to use win percentage as the metric, rather than points.



Win rates me nothing. Someone who plays 8 man games will have a much lower win rate than say someone who plays team games.

You could take that into account, but there's still the problem of competition. If anything, this would make farming WAY more widespread as everyone would want to play noobs.

Edit: Oh, and someone might just play/win 1 game. 100% win rate :lol:
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:48 pm

Bruceswar wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
nicestash wrote:The problem is that some people will lose a ton of points on assassin and once their score is low, get them all back on standard (or something along those lines) and so they could be the king of standard with a very low win percent on the map and as long as their score is low enough, they'll keep gaining points.


This pretty much devastates the idea, I think. The only way to get around this would be to use win percentage as the metric, rather than points.



Win rates me nothing. Someone who plays 8 man games will have a much lower win rate than say someone who plays team games.


Of course win rates mean something. What you mean is that you can't directly compare win rates in 1v1 games versus win rates in 8 player games, which is true. But with an appropriate weighting for the expected win rate in those games on average (50% and 12.5%, respectively), this would be easily accommodated for.
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby nicestash on Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:13 am

We still have the problem of people playing 1 game and having a 100% win rate. Our conqueror would be a new recruit! :lol:
Also, everyone would be trying to play complete noobs, and the best players would try not to play each other at all.
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby mc05025 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:40 am

smegal69 wrote:Have a Conquer medal for each setting and then add them all up to see who is the best all round player


Have a Conquer Medal for each setting (maybe call it a King or Queen Medal), and then add them all together to get the top Conquer
  • best standard player
  • best team player
  • best freestyle player
  • best trench player
    and so on

Specifics/Details:
  • have a score board for each setting then add them all up to see who the best player is...... i.e
    Player A has the most points for standard play, so he/she is King of Standard play, Number 1 (worth 1 point)
    Player B has the second highest points from standard play, so he/she is Number 2 (worth 2 points) and so on down the list from top to bottom
  • So now to work out Who is the Top King is or "The Conquer" you add all them up and Who has the lowest points is Number 1.... i.e
    Player A is Best freestyle player, that is 1 point. but he is 12th for foggy play, that 12 points. He is 69th at dubs play so that 69 points and so on, if you add all the points up Player A has X amount, lets say it all adds up to 82 points
    Player B is 3rd best freestyle player, so that is 3 points, 10 best at foggy play, that is 10 points and 29th at dubs play, thats another 29 points... so the Conquer Score Board would read
    Conquer Player B with 42 points
    2nd ......Player A with 82 points
    3rd ......Player X with what ever points and so on and so on

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • In light of the recent Conquers and there tactics to become number One, it has tarnished the Conquer Medal.
    Now instead of been Who is the best player, it has become Who can find a loophole and exploit it.
    if we did not just use Highest Points to rate the Conquer we would get a much better idea on who the top all round players are.
  • We will also see who the best players are at different style of play,
  • maybe call them "KINGS"
    King of Standard Player
    King of Terminator Player
    King of Assassin Player
    King of Doubles Player
    King of Trips Player
    King of Quads Player
    King of Manual Player
    King of Trench Player
    King of Fog Player
    King of Escalating Player
    King of Nukes Player
    King of Freestyle Player
    King of Speed Player
  • would be more exciting for some players and it will add more competition ...... i.e I can be Number 1 at this style of play
  • we could use the same medals we have now, but put a Crown on top of them..... sorry i can't do a pretty pic of them, but i sure someone will (griff)


Thats a really good suggestion.

Just fix the categories a little

Standar terminator and assassin can be one category called multyplayer games (or make two categories for less than 6 people and for more than 5 people)
One separated category should be the 1v1 and these games should not count to any other category

4 players doubles, triples and quads can be one category (doubles with more teams can be a separated category as this kind of games have nice loopholes)

1 category can be the non escalating games and one other the escalating

No need for manual deployment category and neither for fog games

I think these categories covers all different style of games. Obviously other kind of separation are good too.

Some games will count at two or more categories (for example speed freestyle escalating multyplayer game will count for 4 categories)

The initials ratings will be calculated from the current ratings

All players will start with their current rating for all categories. Then the mods should take into acount about the last 20 games of each category for all players and calculate the performance (for each category). This performance will be the initial rating for each player and each category. If a player doesn't have 20 games at one category he/she can start from the 1000 points (like new players)

The current list can remain as it is (people doesn't like huge changes)

Finally chose the conqueror either from the current list or by some other algorythm. What you are suggesting is meaningless. For example one player can be extremely good at any kind of game(by far the first) but not playing speed games or freestyle at all. That will take him off the list...
One algorith that is working is to take points depending of your position like

20 points for the 1st place
15 for 2nd
12 for 3rd
10 for 4th
8 for 5th
6 for 6th
4 for 7th
3 for 8th
2 for 9th
1 for 10th

No points for any other place (doesn't matter if you are 11th or with no rating at all)

Add the points and the one with most is the conqueror
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:18 am

nicestash wrote:We still have the problem of people playing 1 game and having a 100% win rate. Our conqueror would be a new recruit! :lol:


Not a problem. Whenever you have rating systems like this, you always put some minimum on the number of games played before a person is eligible. For example, in the MLB, you cannot be eligible to win the batting title without having had a certain number of plate appearances. The same would apply here.

Also, everyone would be trying to play complete noobs, and the best players would try not to play each other at all.


To me, this is a good thing. First, it would allow us to diversify the goals of playing; instead of focusing on points, you could focus on win percentage instead (and you certainly couldn't focus on both if you're constantly playing against low-ranked players). Second, it is generally a good thing when high ranked players play against low ranked players; the latter have a chance to learn from the former by playing against a good player. They may lose, but they'll probably learn more than if they won against someone of their own skill level. Note that this does not mean I condone farming in general. The hallmark of a farmer is to invite a new player to play a complex map that they can't possibly have a chance of understanding properly. That should still be disallowed. But I fully encourage interactions between high and low ranked players that occur on grounds of mutual preparedness, and where the high ranked player is more likely to win only because of greater experience, and not because the low-ranked player just doesn't understand the map.
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby smegal69 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:51 am

nicestash wrote:We still have the problem of people playing 1 game and having a 100% win rate. Our conqueror would be a new recruit! :lol:
Also, everyone would be trying to play complete noobs, and the best players would try not to play each other at all.



No, he could not be.....say a person only played 1 type of game and was number 1 at it....... yes he will be king of that setting but his score in all the other would be last, i.e

Player A is number 1 at standard games so he will get 1 point for that setting.
But Player A never plays any other setting so he is rated lowest in every other setting. (say there is 20,00 members he would get 20,000 points for every setting)
when it comes to adding up his score he will get 1 for standard but every other setting he gets 20,000 so his score will be 1+20,000+20,00+20,000 +20,000 as so on..... remember it is the lowest score when they are all added up that you want.

so been Number 1 in one setting will not make you the conquer...... it is who is best at all the setting that will make you the conquer.
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby smegal69 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:37 am

sorry guys it might be how I'm trying to explaining this that's is getting everyone confused.

we leave how we gets points alone..... we still have the points score board
so if player A bets player B he gets X amount of points BUT......

Then the Points Player A got for winning that game gets added (or Taken away) from his "Settings Score board"

If Player A, won a freestyle, Esc, foggy, dubs game he would get X amount of points add to each setting score board
X amount for Freestyle
X amount for Esc
X amount for Foggy
X amount for Dubs

Then when it comes to be crown the Conquer you add up where he is ranked on each score board (i see 13 of them) ..... and it's is the lowest score you want.

I.e Player A rankings in each:

Standard: he is 1st(THE king of Standard) so he gets 1 points
Terminator: he is 500th so he gets 500 points
Assassin: he is 1000th so he get 1000
Doubles: he is 1000th so he gets 1000
Trips: he is 10th so he gets 10 points
Quads: he is 250th so he gets 250 points
Manual: he is 100th so he gets 100 points
Trench: he is 25th so he gets 25 points
Fog: he is 100th so he gets 100 points
Escalating: he is 99th so he gets 99 points
Nukes: he is 5000th so he gets 5000 points
Freestyle: he is 200th so he gets 200 points
Speed: he is 1000th so he gets 1000 points

So players A score for "Conquer" is made up of where he is ranked on ALL the (kings) score boards,
in this Case it would be 9285 points.

Now that's score is compared to everyone else and who has the LOWEST is Conquer.

if a player only plays 1 type of game or settings he will never have a chance at been Conquer, but then he could be King of that setting.

i think that it will not matter how many people are in the game......
Yes if you only play 8 player standard game you will get more points than playing 2 player standard BUT you winning % will be lower than play 1v1 Standard games

hope that made it a bit clearer ...... i must remember to put down the crack pipe when i try explain myself better ;)
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby mc05025 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:00 pm

At that system the conqueror might be the one who is 50th at all settings while someone that is 1st at all settings and doesn't play freestyle games will be out of the list. I do not like that.
The system I described seems really nice to me. The conqueror will have to be very good at most setting, but he will take extra credits if he is the 1st at some of them and not being unreasonably punished for not playing all of them
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:33 am

If this happens the conqueror medal will lose it's meaning to some extent but I guess otherwise I'm not opposed.
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby agentcom on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:47 pm

greenoaks wrote:i suggested something like that here.


if you break it up then the score for each setting needs to be calculated independantly of the score for every other setting. that way it is not possible to bomb a stack of Assassin games to lower your score to make a run at No. 1 Terminator.


The two suggestions, as I understand them, are identical; except that you wanted a point reset, which I think is outside the bounds of realistic expectations.

------------------------

As for the whole win percentage idea, I don't think that's a good idea. On top of it being a relatively useless metric, IMO, I think folks are right that there would be even more incentive to farm than there is now. Additionally, the threshold should be set very high so that someone can't come in and win 18/20 games by luck and remain at the top of the scoreboard forever. Perhaps one fix, if you went with that and wanted to keep the threshold low would be like the current scoreboard rules, where you have to have finished a game in the last 30 days to qualify. But I think that's another topic for another suggestion.

-----------------------

Finally, I like the idea of having different nomenclature ("King of XXX") than Conqueror. Kind of a neat tweak.
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby torres44cm on Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:09 pm

Some awesome suggestions, been due for a long time, but to add some input, keeping with smegal69 idea, could have a playoff at the end of the year with all the qualified catergory leaders, similair to Nascar maybe , top 20 play for Conquer Medal, using multpile maps/setting winner takes the Conquer Crown for the year? this way anyone who might have tried to manipulate the system, has to play to prove they earned it in the Championship!
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Re: Break up the Conquer medal

Postby Armandolas on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:02 pm

nicestash wrote:The only problem I can see with that is implementing it- does everyone go back to 0 or is every score recalculated (and how?).


I dont think we need to separate scores
The conqueror should still be the overall board leader.The guy with most points
I just think that we could also have an assasin leaderboard, nuke,trench and so on. There you have the king of FS, King of nukes etc
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