Draw! [Survivor button]

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Draw! [Survivor button]

Postby thehippo8 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:31 am

Draw setting

Concise description:

  • Draw setting for round limit games.

Specifics/Details:
  • In this game I was lucky enough to make it to round 30 with one troop. Clearly not a win for me. But wouldn't that have been interesting if there was a draw option given it was a round limit game. This would be a button you can select to add an element of chance to the losing side. In chess where one player cannot beat the other in time setting and the flag falls without a win the game is a draw. Why not here?

    UPDATE: Reviewing the debate, this would be a survivor button. In two player games the points are split equally and therefore a nil sum result. Where there are more players, the survivors (or their teams) divide the poiints. See the discussion for more detail.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • It would a very interesting setting for clan matches - particularly so for the top teams. As in chess, if you cannot win then you will play for a draw and that might affect the entire outcome of a war. Aside from clan games it would be an interesting setting generally. Kind of a putting your money on the line, are you really good? Or just lucky?
Last edited by thehippo8 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Draw!

Postby nicestash on Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:21 pm

I like it!
I've played in tournaments before where making it to a certain round counted as a tie. Having a game like that would be awesome!
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Re: Draw!

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:07 pm

This seems like it might open a whole new realm of hostage taking. (goes off to ponder)

-DY
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Re: Draw!

Postby nicestash on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:15 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:This seems like it might open a whole new realm of hostage taking. (goes off to ponder)

-DY

Not at all!
Who would take a hostage when it means splitting the points with more players?
If anything, this discourages hostages.
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Re: Draw!

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:18 pm

The community will never go for any draw setting unless it fundamentally changes its attitude. People seem to want every game to count for points. I absolutely do not agree with this, but it seems to be the majority decision as of now.
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Re: Draw!

Postby thehippo8 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:41 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:The community will never go for any draw setting unless it fundamentally changes its attitude. People seem to want every game to count for points. I absolutely do not agree with this, but it seems to be the majority decision as of now.

If you want every game to count for points (farming) then you chose the setting that suit you and the add-ons that give you an edge and hope that the dice gods smile on you. But frankly there are plenty of us who play this game for strategy and to grow our minds - points be damned. Sure that might seem silly to the point gatherers but everyone is on the site for different reasons.
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Re: Draw!

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:38 pm

thehippo8 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:The community will never go for any draw setting unless it fundamentally changes its attitude. People seem to want every game to count for points. I absolutely do not agree with this, but it seems to be the majority decision as of now.

If you want every game to count for points (farming) then you chose the setting that suit you and the add-ons that give you an edge and hope that the dice gods smile on you. But frankly there are plenty of us who play this game for strategy and to grow our minds - points be damned. Sure that might seem silly to the point gatherers but everyone is on the site for different reasons.


If you don't care about the points, why are you advocating a setting that only changes how the points are distributed?
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Re: Draw!

Postby thehippo8 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:28 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:If you don't care about the points, why are you advocating a setting that only changes how the points are distributed?

I care about the game, the technique, proving you understand the strategy and actually are better than your opponent and not just lucky. Not a complete disregard of points but a focus on what is really important. But at any rate, it is a setting like any other. I hardly ever play adjascent reinforcements but that doesn't make it a bad setting!
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Re: Draw!

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:47 pm

thehippo8 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:If you don't care about the points, why are you advocating a setting that only changes how the points are distributed?

I care about the game, the technique, proving you understand the strategy and actually are better than your opponent and not just lucky. Not a complete disregard of points but a focus on what is really important. But at any rate, it is a setting like any other. I hardly ever play adjascent reinforcements but that doesn't make it a bad setting!


I don't think I understand where you are coming from. In chess, a draw is forced at the end of the time control only when you literally don't have enough material to checkmate the other player. There are very few round limit games, if any, where anything analogous to this would occur. It sounds as if you are saying there should be an option for some recognition if you can make it to the round limit without losing. But if you make it to the round limit with 12 troops against your opponent's 88, what does that say about strategy?
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Re: Draw!

Postby nicestash on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:56 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:If you don't care about the points, why are you advocating a setting that only changes how the points are distributed?

I care about the game, the technique, proving you understand the strategy and actually are better than your opponent and not just lucky. Not a complete disregard of points but a focus on what is really important. But at any rate, it is a setting like any other. I hardly ever play adjascent reinforcements but that doesn't make it a bad setting!


I don't think I understand where you are coming from. In chess, a draw is forced at the end of the time control only when you literally don't have enough material to checkmate the other player. There are very few round limit games, if any, where anything analogous to this would occur. It sounds as if you are saying there should be an option for some recognition if you can make it to the round limit without losing. But if you make it to the round limit with 12 troops against your opponent's 88, what does that say about strategy?

Maybe it says you were successful. If the other players starts with a large bonus and the first turn advantage, it's realistic to try to just hold them off. Often times in real life, generals are in charge of just delaying enemy forces until reinforcements can arrive.
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Re: Draw!

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:06 pm

Ok. After reading mets' comments it has occurred to me that this is similar to what I suggested before:
the round limits shouldn't be a prescribed victory condition, but rather a random one from a list.

Playing to round limits and just sitting and stacking for 25 turns for 1 round of action at the end isn't much fun. If there were other potential wins: most territories, most successful attacks during the game, highest deployment, most original territories held etc.
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Re: Draw!

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:14 pm

nicestash wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:If you don't care about the points, why are you advocating a setting that only changes how the points are distributed?

I care about the game, the technique, proving you understand the strategy and actually are better than your opponent and not just lucky. Not a complete disregard of points but a focus on what is really important. But at any rate, it is a setting like any other. I hardly ever play adjascent reinforcements but that doesn't make it a bad setting!


I don't think I understand where you are coming from. In chess, a draw is forced at the end of the time control only when you literally don't have enough material to checkmate the other player. There are very few round limit games, if any, where anything analogous to this would occur. It sounds as if you are saying there should be an option for some recognition if you can make it to the round limit without losing. But if you make it to the round limit with 12 troops against your opponent's 88, what does that say about strategy?

Maybe it says you were successful. If the other players starts with a large bonus and the first turn advantage, it's realistic to try to just hold them off. Often times in real life, generals are in charge of just delaying enemy forces until reinforcements can arrive.


I agree with this. I think that in those circumstances it would be neat. However, there's still the big stumbling block of getting people to swallow games where no points are awarded. Let's see what people say.
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Re: Draw!

Postby thehippo8 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:20 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Ok. After reading mets' comments it has occurred to me that this is similar to what I suggested before:
the round limits shouldn't be a prescribed victory condition, but rather a random one from a list.

Playing to round limits and just sitting and stacking for 25 turns for 1 round of action at the end isn't much fun. If there were other potential wins: most territories, most successful attacks during the game, highest deployment, most original territories held etc.

Yes that would be to the same effect but it does not give CC the choice of whether they want to play for ending with lots of troops or actually trying to win the game in the allotted number of moves. In other words, by having an option to click it deals with the objections against your idea (which I was unaware of until now) and yet retains the status quo for people like mets who prefer it the other way.

Incidentally mets, you said:
Metsfanmax wrote:I don't think I understand where you are coming from. In chess, a draw is forced at the end of the time control only when you literally don't have enough material to checkmate the other player. There are very few round limit games, if any, where anything analogous to this would occur. It sounds as if you are saying there should be an option for some recognition if you can make it to the round limit without losing. But if you make it to the round limit with 12 troops against your opponent's 88, what does that say about strategy?

The limitation in chess is time not rounds but CC is a model of behaviour and not a repitition of real life. So, a draw is a close approximation of the idea without any attempt to replicate chess. My point is that if there was no win then it is a draw - no point allocation either way! In chess there is a reduced point allocation for holding an opponent to a draw (in rated games) but I see little purpose in suggesting that (unless others think that's brilliant) as the maths is complex and it rather defeats the purpose of this setting (IMHO) As to strategy, it says that you understand the map enough to hold your own in XX moves and it also says that (if you win) you really know your stuff! But there are further tactical advantages. For instance, in clan matches you may end up a point ahead and then hold the other team to a series of draws (just like in real life World Master chess championships) and if the other team has nothing then they will lose.
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Re: Draw!

Postby nicestash on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:38 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
nicestash wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thehippo8 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:If you don't care about the points, why are you advocating a setting that only changes how the points are distributed?

I care about the game, the technique, proving you understand the strategy and actually are better than your opponent and not just lucky. Not a complete disregard of points but a focus on what is really important. But at any rate, it is a setting like any other. I hardly ever play adjascent reinforcements but that doesn't make it a bad setting!


I don't think I understand where you are coming from. In chess, a draw is forced at the end of the time control only when you literally don't have enough material to checkmate the other player. There are very few round limit games, if any, where anything analogous to this would occur. It sounds as if you are saying there should be an option for some recognition if you can make it to the round limit without losing. But if you make it to the round limit with 12 troops against your opponent's 88, what does that say about strategy?

Maybe it says you were successful. If the other players starts with a large bonus and the first turn advantage, it's realistic to try to just hold them off. Often times in real life, generals are in charge of just delaying enemy forces until reinforcements can arrive.


I agree with this. I think that in those circumstances it would be neat. However, there's still the big stumbling block of getting people to swallow games where no points are awarded. Let's see what people say.


Let's get this straight-these are NOT pointless games, they're just games where there's the possibility of no points being rewarded.
Another possibility would be to split the points among all remaining players. In an 8 player standard game, if there are only 2 players left, they'll each get half the points (calculated by adding their scores together and dividing by 2, then dividing it from each opponent's score and multiplying by 20). However, reading over that suggestion, it could be worth it for a high points player to leave a low point player alive. If they're 4000 points against 7 1000 point players, a draw would be more beneficial for them (if an outright win:[1000/4000]*20=5 pts from each player*7=35 points; if draw 4000+1000/2=2500. 1000/2500-20=8 points. 8 points*6=48 points).
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Re: Draw!

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:12 pm

How about a new game type called survivor where everyone alive at the round limit splits the points?
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Re: Draw!

Postby nicestash on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:16 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:How about a new game type called survivor where everyone alive at the round limit splits the points?

That's what I was thinking.
The problem is determining how many points every player gets (as shown in my previous comment where it was beneficial for a higher ranked player to hold a hostage).
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Re: Draw!

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:31 pm

nicestash wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:How about a new game type called survivor where everyone alive at the round limit splits the points?

That's what I was thinking.
The problem is determining how many points every player gets (as shown in my previous comment where it was beneficial for a higher ranked player to hold a hostage).


Yes, it's problematic to calculate an average number of losers' points and split that evenly among the winning players, because a weaker player who manages to survive to the round limit should presumably earn more points. So instead, split up the points won from each player proportionate to the relative rating of the surviving players, weighted towards the lower ranked players more. As an example,

Player A: 1600 (loses)
Player B: 1400 (survives)
Player C: 2200 (survives)

The average surviving score is 1800, so Player A should lose 22.5 points. Player B then gets 2200 / (2200+1400) of that, and Player C gets 1400 / (2200+1400); that is, Player B earns 13.75 points and Player C earns 8.75 points.

In your example, if we used this approach, in the second scenario the 4000 point player would actually only win 1.6 points from each losing player (instead of 5 if he had outright won), as seems more appropriate.
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Re: Draw!

Postby thehippo8 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:50 am

nicestash wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:How about a new game type called survivor where everyone alive at the round limit splits the points?

That's what I was thinking.
The problem is determining how many points every player gets (as shown in my previous comment where it was beneficial for a higher ranked player to hold a hostage).

Well, that solves the question I posed at the commencement (ie that in a two player game where there are two survivors the points are divided equally making a nil sum game or a draw!) but at the same time taking recognition of more complex modes (ie four sets of doubles in an eight player game where two teams survive - as an example). I like it - call it the survivor option!

NOTE: I have updated the initial post to include this as a more thorough explanation.
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Re: Draw! [Survivor button]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:04 am

Could this not bring in a whole different area of cheating? "I'm friends with player B, instead of me taking all the points, I can split them with him." Yeah yeah, we could punish them, but people are still going to try to find a way to tip toe around it.

Edit** Just throwing this into the fold, Don't believe I saw anyone post about it.
Last edited by TheForgivenOne on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Draw!

Postby greenoaks on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:00 am

thehippo8 wrote:I hardly ever play adjascent reinforcements

me too :D
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Re: Draw! [Survivor button]

Postby thehippo8 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:56 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:Could this not bring in a whole different area of cheating? "I'm friends with player B, instead of me taking all the points, I can split them with him." Yeah yeah, we could punish them, but people are still going to try to find a way to tip toe around it.

Edit** Just throwing this into the fold, Don't believe I saw anyone post about it.

Can't see how such cheating is any different from the same rationale in, say, three player games - or indeed anything else. CHeaters get caught then they get biffed out of CC ... good sport for the staff and the idiots have to live with themselves. Frankly, it is a non issue with the setting.
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Re: Draw! [Survivor button]

Postby thehippo8 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:05 am

Here is an example of a game won within a 20 round setting ... against someone who really knows their stuff ... it makes the win that much more satisfying knowing that you faced a chance of getting squat if you didn't do it in time! Game 12486524
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Re: Draw! [Survivor button]

Postby greenoaks on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:24 am

we should not be rewarded forr coming 2nd, 3rd or 4th.

play to win. winner takes all.
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Re: Draw! [Survivor button]

Postby thehippo8 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:45 am

greenoaks wrote:we should not be rewarded forr coming 2nd, 3rd or 4th.

play to win. winner takes all.

If you play in a team and get knocked out then you will still win points ...how is this any different? But your point is well made. Once I get some more feedback on the issue I may set up a poll.
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Re: Draw! [Survivor button]

Postby greenoaks on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:57 am

thehippo8 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:we should not be rewarded forr coming 2nd, 3rd or 4th.

play to win. winner takes all.

If you play in a team and get knocked out then you will still win points ...how is this any different? But your point is well made. Once I get some more feedback on the issue I may set up a poll.

even though you are eliminated from games you live on as part of that team.

this will allow players to say 'hey, i'll help you to eliminate the guy coming 2nd and we'll share the points. this has been suggested before and rejected.
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