[GP/UI]Automatically Award Spoils Even if a Player Times Out

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Automatically award a spoil to a player that takes a territory:

Never. Timing out to avoid getting a spoil is a valid strategy.
18
22%
Always. Any player that takes a territory in any game type should be awarded a spoil, even if he doesn't click "End Turn."
44
54%
For all games except speed and/or freestyle. It's a key part of the timing in those games and should be preserved.
19
23%
 
Total votes : 81

Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby macbone on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:43 pm

I've played Risk games before where unless you remember to take your card at the end of the turn, you don't get one. =)

The issue here is this statement:

What's a set of spoils? You earn spoils at the end of every turn in which you successfully conquer a region, just like reality!


I'm still not sure what the "just like reality" is referring to (war? other board games? poker night?), but the rules say that if you conquer a region, you get a spoil. I can just imagine this around the table - someone rolls the dice, makes their moves, and then sits back and waits 59 minutes for the clock to run out so they don't take a card.

I understand that people use this tactic. The question is, is this a bug or a feature? If it's a bug, then close the loophole and implement Doc's suggestion. If it's a feature, change the Instructions to include something like "If you don't finish your turn before time runs out, you don't get a spoil, just like reality!"

Personally, I see this as a cheap tactic in nuclear spoils play, since you can break your opponent's bonus but not have to worry about nuking your own bonus your next round. What's the point of nuclear spoils, then?

Mc says he supports complexity in games. Fair enough. But I support choices and consequences. Do I risk breaking that bonus if it means I might have to nuke my own? Should I hunt another player, even if it means I risk nuking my teammate? Choices and consequences are good for Conquer Club and lead to more interesting gameplay.

But in the spirit of choices and consequences, I voted for the third option, because in a speed game, not ending the turn in time really does have consequences for Escalating play for the reasons MC mentioned. How long can I wait before ending the turn? Will I have enough time to reinforce? So I'd like this rule to be enforced for 24-hour games, where 1 hour is enough time for anyone to make their moves, even the most complex ones, whereas in speed games, the clock is your enemy, and taking too much time should result in not being able to reap the benefits of a spoil.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Doc_Brown on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:53 pm

Dako pointed me to the original thread here: viewtopic.php?f=471&t=126900

Some people from there that were clearly in favor of a very similar version of this suggestion: :lol:
Metsfanmax wrote:Seems like a pretty good idea to me. The cash at the end of turn idea is more consistent with real Risk gameplay, but there's no reason why this particular aspect of it has to match up, if there are no negatives to changing the reward time.

One potential problem is that the server has to remember that you earned a card for a long time, before actually granting it to you.


rdsrds2120 wrote:If I'm understanding this right, you basically want to award cards to those that run out of time as well, granted they've done what's required to get a card normally?
I like that idea. I hate lagging at the end of a speed game where I need a card. It really affects my gameplay.

Metsfanmax wrote:One potential problem is that the server has to remember that you earned a card for a long time, before actually granting it to you.


I don't think that it would make a HUGE deal.
Right now I think that the system checks to see if you've successfully attacked/bombarded then awards a spoil upon ending your turn.
Instead of doing that, you can do the same thing and just have the check happen when you press 'Begin Turn' on the following. Holding one boolean value on the game is nothing compared to everything else that it stores.
Even if that's now hot it happens, it wouldn't be hard to store a boolean value of getting a card true or false, but I'm not a web developer. Up to turtle.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:24 am

Personally I've always been fine with it and not seen it as a cheap tactic. If the oppo lets the clock run down so he doesn't card it means two things:

1. He's not earning any more cards for the foreseeable future

2. He cannot fort

I consider that punitive enough and any further advantage obviously rests with me. So I'll take that advantage and let the deliberate not-carding slide.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby betiko on Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:27 am

i fully agree with this suggestion, i hate this loophole in nukes and escalating.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby chapcrap on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:48 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:Personally I've always been fine with it and not seen it as a cheap tactic. If the oppo lets the clock run down so he doesn't card it means two things:

1. He's not earning any more cards for the foreseeable future

2. He cannot fort

I consider that punitive enough and any further advantage obviously rests with me. So I'll take that advantage and let the deliberate not-carding slide.

They can still fort in unlimited games.

Personally, I support this in all games except speed-freestyle games.

As a moderator here, I think the question is whether or not it makes the game better. It seems to me, that typically if a player times out, it's on accident and did not really want to time out. I have the feeling that this is more of an accidental thing than a purposeful thing used for strategic purposes. I have no numbers to back that up. However, with that view in mind, I think it's a good idea to implement this in some capacity.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Doc_Brown on Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:30 pm

How feasible would it be to implement this for sequential games but not freestyle? I'm not particularly opposed to allowing people to time out, but like Ace mentioned early in the thread, I think there is a serious issue if something is explicitly banned in clan play that is considered valid outside the clan games. So far there is over 80% support for automatically awarding spoils at least for sequential games (and a large majority support implementing this for all game types). If the implementation is not too difficult, I'd recommend implementing it for sequential games now and spending more time considering whether it should be used in freestyle games.


Edit: I added this proposal as a compromise option at the end of the first post.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:56 am

jetsetwilly wrote:I completely support eliminating the ability for a player to take his turn, capture or bombard a territory, then time out without being awards spoils. If a player times out on his turn, he will automatically be awarded any spoils he would have received if he ended his turn normally :)

my thoughts exactly.

spoils should be awarded when your turns ends, regardless of whether it was because the timer reached zero or you clicked the 'end turn' button.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby agentcom on Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:10 am

I support this. I never liked that you can simply wait for the end of your turn to avoid getting a bonus. And I don't like the idea of making the rule different for different settings. The most convincing counterarguments that I see are as follows (with my counter-counterarguments)

First argument is that part of the dynamic of speed games is that you must finish your turn in time. I would be more swayed by this if I thought that how fast you can press buttons should outweigh the strategic nature of the game. However, I do not think that how quickly you can press 'e' 'e' should determine whether or not you get a spoil. I realize that much of speed games is how quickly you can make certain attacks, etc. I'm fine with that aspect because there's a little bit more strategy involved. But to me, there's little strategy element in whether you can end the turn at that fraction of a second to press the 'e' key enough times.

The other argument is that this adds complexity to the game, and I think that D4 Damager did a pretty good job of showing complexity existing on both sides of this debate.

So to me, as it seems with many others, this comes down to "how the game is supposed to be played." Granted, that's a very subjective standard, but it seems to me that the majority believe that the way the game is supposed to be played is that you get a card for conquering a territory.

Add to this, that I really dislike putting different rules/coding/settings on different types of games (e.g., speed v. casual; freestyle v. sequential). And add that this tactic wastes time in some games (as a player waits an hour for his turn to count down) and I'm pretty resolutely in the camp of awarding spoils anytime a territ is taken during a turn.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:59 am

and the Instructions tab agrees with us.

You earn spoils at the end of every turn in which you successfully conquer a region
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby mc05025 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:08 pm

yea, when running out of time you do not end the turn. You do not pess end turn and there is no 'end turn' written in the log. The turn is incompleted and the game moves on. So it is correct right now
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:11 pm

mc05025 wrote:yea, when running out of time you do not end the turn. You do not pess end turn and there is no 'end turn' written in the log. The turn is incompleted and the game moves on. So it is correct right now

if my turn hasn't ended how come i can't continue to attack?
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Teflon Kris on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:20 pm

Yeah - players still have the option of depleting a region without taking it if they really dont want a card.

Why not, as well, automatic deferred troops if a player times out without having deployed ?
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby mc05025 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:02 pm

greenoaks wrote:
mc05025 wrote:yea, when running out of time you do not end the turn. You do not pess end turn and there is no 'end turn' written in the log. The turn is incompleted and the game moves on. So it is correct right now

if my turn hasn't ended how come i can't continue to attack?


There is no rule saying you can attack till you end your turn. You can attack till you press end assaults or run out of time. Thats why you can not attack anymore :D
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby kuma32478 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:11 pm

I fully support this suggestion
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:44 pm

mc05025 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
mc05025 wrote:yea, when running out of time you do not end the turn. You do not pess end turn and there is no 'end turn' written in the log. The turn is incompleted and the game moves on. So it is correct right now

if my turn hasn't ended how come i can't continue to attack?


There is no rule saying you can attack till you end your turn. You can attack till you press end assaults or run out of time. Thats why you can not attack anymore :D

but there is a rule that states i get a Spoil when my turn has ended. it does not say only if my turn has ended in a particular fashion.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Crazyirishman on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:24 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:Why not, as well, automatic deferred troops if a player times out without having deployed ?


I like this idea. It's the worst when you start you turn, forget about it and lose out on all troops.

Personally, I like the idea if there is the exception giving for speed freestyle.

As a an occasional shitty freestyle player, I feel that it would equal the playing field if I could just attack and not have to worry about ending my turn and get an auto-card, it would for sure make the game easier.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby trinicardinal on Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:48 pm

I definitely support a spoil being awarded as long as you have successfully conquered/bombarded at least one territory
10:16:35 ‹Ace Rimmer› haven't looked at work in ages
10:42:43 ‹Sackett58› fine, I'll take my panties elsewhere
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:20 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:As a speed freestyle player myself, I echo the concerns voiced by Metsfanmax. I've been contemplating this rule for about a week now and I arrived at the same conclusion that Ace has, which is to not change the rule for freestyle.

BMO


So.... Does this mean the compromise proposal is considered Submitted?

Compromise Proposal:
Automatically award spoils earned in all sequential games. Allow timing out without receiving spoils in freestyle games.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Fazeem on Wed May 01, 2013 9:44 pm

trinicardinal wrote:I definitely support a spoil being awarded as long as you have successfully conquered/bombarded at least one territory

I concur
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby greenoaks on Thu May 02, 2013 6:43 am

Doc_Brown wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:As a speed freestyle player myself, I echo the concerns voiced by Metsfanmax. I've been contemplating this rule for about a week now and I arrived at the same conclusion that Ace has, which is to not change the rule for freestyle.

BMO


So.... Does this mean the compromise proposal is considered Submitted?

Compromise Proposal:
Automatically award spoils earned in all sequential games. Allow timing out without receiving spoils in freestyle games.

i hope not. 1 rule for all forms of the game means no confusion.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby chapcrap on Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:08 am

Stickying this for a bit. The majority of players support this.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby king achilles on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:09 am

So, if a player will always get a spoil when he conquers a territory, can he freely let his turn run out then or no longer bother clicking on the end turn if he is already content with his move?
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Seulessliathan on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:16 am

king achilles wrote:So, if a player will always get a spoil when he conquers a territory, can he freely let his turn run out then or no longer bother clicking on the end turn if he is already content with his move?


Sure, but why would anyone do that? Already possible in no spoils unlimited games, but i think i have never seen it happen, people always end there turn when they are done, so i guess there won´t be any problems about this.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Qwert on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:16 am

then we could have stalemate games, where players will not take territories.
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