[GP/UI]Automatically Award Spoils Even if a Player Times Out

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Automatically award a spoil to a player that takes a territory:

Never. Timing out to avoid getting a spoil is a valid strategy.
19
23%
Always. Any player that takes a territory in any game type should be awarded a spoil, even if he doesn't click "End Turn."
44
54%
For all games except speed and/or freestyle. It's a key part of the timing in those games and should be preserved.
19
23%
 
Total votes : 82

Postby Strife on Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:29 pm

I don't think this'll change. It's a strategy used by some. :wink:
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Postby Herakilla on Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:17 pm

thats a strategy and what about speed games? especially freestyle where people will purposely do that so they can go right away after time runs out again? you want them to get away with it AND get a card?
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Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:29 pm

It's been rejected before, not because of the 'Strategy' part, but due in case to if you received a card at the end of your turn, people might just be well inclined to let the time run out, wasting a good a hour or so of play time. By forcing you to click End Fortification, we ensure generally shorter round times.


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Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:47 pm

(Apologies if this has been submitted before. I looked and didn't see anything, but I may well have missed it.)
Concise description:
Eliminate the ability for a player to take his turn, capture or bombard a territory, then time out without being awards spoils. If a player times out on his turn, he will automatically be awarded any spoils he would have received if he ended his turn normally.
Alternatively, clarify that this is officially recognized as an acceptable and valid tactic on this site.

Specifics/Details:
In escalating and nuclear spoils games, some players will start their turns, capture territories (to break bonuses or interfere with opponents), then refuse to manually end their turns to avoid receiving spoils. This is widely considered to be cheap tactic and is now being penalized in clan tournaments. Dako was removed as head of CCup4, presumably due to refusal to include a rule allowing Clan Directors to enforce penalties for using this tactic. Evidently, multiple members of Team CC believe this should not be allowed.

There are times when people time out accidentally, due to connectivity problems or real-life interruptions. Unlike the case where they completely miss their turns, these individuals have started their turns, deployed troops, and engaged in one or more battles. For all intents and purposes, they have completed their turns, so it seems unnecessary to penalize them. On the other hand, a rule against timing out in clan play requires a subjective judgement about a player's intentions.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Automatically awarding spoils will eliminate a possible cheap strategy.
  • It will reduce the burden on clan directors, since they will no longer have to investigate timing-out complaints.
  • It will eliminate a need for a subjective judgement about a player's intentions.
  • In accidental cases, it will remove a penalty for currently incurred for accidental timing out due to real-life interference.
  • If this is considered an acceptable strategy by Conquer Club as a whole, an official statement to that effect would clarify the situation for everyone.


Compromise Proposal:
Automatically award spoils earned in all sequential games. Allow timing out without receiving spoils in freestyle games.

From the comments I've seen, it appears that the majority of the people that favor being able to avoid spoils do so in speed freestyle games. I don't like the idea of different rules between speed and casual games. However, freestyle already has different rules from sequential and allows for other types of tactics related to timing of turns. Also, freestyle games are not permitted in normal clan play, so this change would take care of all clan-related concerns about the rule.
Advantages
  • Clan players no longer have to worry about someone making a subjective judgement on motives when someone times out.
  • Speed freestylers keep their lost spoils penalties for those that delay too long.
  • The same rules apply in clan games and non clan games.
  • There are no rule differences between casual and speed games.
  • It becomes explicitly clear that timing out to avoid spoils is an accepted tactic in freestyle games (where precise timing of turns is already a key component of winning).
Last edited by Doc_Brown on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Vid_FISO on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:12 pm

Doc_Brown wrote:[*]If this is considered an acceptable strategy by Conquer Club as a whole, an official statement to that effect would clarify the situation for everyone.


And simply add an "end turn" button to officially legitimize the practice.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:14 pm

I fully support this. There is simply no good reason that I can think of not to enact this suggestion.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby HardAttack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:27 pm

nicely done docbrown,
good stuff, full support.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby jetsetwilly on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:35 pm

I completely support eliminating the ability for a player to take his turn, capture or bombard a territory, then time out without being awards spoils. If a player times out on his turn, he will automatically be awarded any spoils he would have received if he ended his turn normally :)
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Ace Rimmer on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:36 pm

Agreed, this is on par with the freestyle double turn issue that existed for years and the issue with team games with round limits going to the player with the most troops instead of the team. This was a decision made by lackattack that should be changed, because it is not in the spirit of competition and has the Clan Directors making subjective rules about whether or not someone intentionally missed a card vs lost connectivity.

HardAttack wrote:...lately we are shaping the gaming practice in two ways, that is rules for clan games and rules for other type of games...

^^^This is an issue. There should not be separate rules for clan games vs non-clan games. If there is a situation that a feature of the game mechanics causes things to be unfair for clan games, then it makes them unfair for other games, and should be fixed in all cases.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby IcePack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:44 pm

So if you are playing a 1 min freestyle esc game, and can't get your whole turn (assualt, reinforcement, end turn) in because of lack of time...is it going to reward your slow play with a card as well regardless of whether you were assualting still, reinforcing, etc?
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Doc_Brown on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:50 pm

IcePack wrote:So if you are playing a 1 min freestyle esc game, and can't get your whole turn (assualt, reinforcement, end turn) in because of lack of time...is it going to reward your slow play with a card as well regardless of whether you were assualting still, reinforcing, etc?


Yes. The penalty for slow play is failure to get all your reinforcements to where you want them to go. I can understand there being some mild controversy on this point, but I think the benefits for all other game types strongly outweigh the drawbacks for this specific set of circumstances.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby HardAttack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:53 pm

jetsetwilly wrote:I completely support eliminating the ability for a player to take his turn, capture or bombard a territory, then time out without being awards spoils. If a player times out on his turn, he will automatically be awarded any spoils he would have received if he ended his turn normally :)


i dont support this idea, however i do the "IF THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN, THEN LETS HAVE IT BE SITE RULE" part.
i dont feel skipping card is cheap...

ace rimmer wrote:Conquering and timing out is a strategic option (the same as teammate killing, or trimming a stack without conquering, or starting a turn, dropping on a teammate, and not attacking).


+1

this is very well what i mean to say. Basically all are same...
We are all making suggestions time to time, offered trench warfare a while ago, new type of gaming, hey someone suggested nuclear spoils, another way of playing... And among all of these options, there is one, that is the skip the card option coming built in as an option for a player if he doesnt want to card it, then let him do...what is the big deal in it. As a player, in and while you make your move, you have to consider every single options, shouldd take all options and possibilities into your consideration, including what if my oppo misses a card intentionally or not. I believe increase the possibilities to make a game more complicated then this is very well boost in fun and skill. Why do you limit it ? This is not a good idea limitting it and even punishing players, forfeiting games and finally penalizing clans for it.

Please do not take this option away from my game, please do not limit my moves and strategy...
Ppl call it cheap tactic, but i feel and call it to be a very pure tactic, and only skilled players can make neccesary calls and calculations to give the right call and see the certain moves, then make the calls pick or not to pick a card when neccesary.

I dont know if i can express myself well here, but i try anyways.
Once again, intentionally skipping card is and should be a part of this game.
Carding is all the time to mean bonus, additional units, however sometimes there are moments not carding while keeping conquering is an option to do better for teams. Then why not ?
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:02 pm

I can clarify that currently, it is intentional that this tactic is allowed. We have discussed in the past whether we want to revisit this. The main argument, as IcePack points out, against the change in speed games is that it requires skill to be able to complete a turn on time, and this change would make it easier to play speed games because you wouldn't have to worry about ending your turn on time (obviously this has the biggest impact on freestyle). Doc's response is not really responsive because the reason why people wait out their turns is precisely because they want to be able to respond to everyone else's moves. If, as a result, no one gets to reinforce where they want, then everyone is on an even par. Still, it is not obvious to me that making speed freestyle games 'easier' in this respect is a bad thing; it might be good to add this safety in, as it would make it more possible for people with slower connections to compete (and might just increase new interest in freestyle in general). Nevertheless, we would certainly entertain a solution that made this change for all game types but speed freestyle.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Nicky15 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:08 pm

Vid_FISO wrote:
Doc_Brown wrote:[*]If this is considered an acceptable strategy by Conquer Club as a whole, an official statement to that effect would clarify the situation for everyone.


And simply add an "end turn" button to officially legitimize the practice.


If this is a practice endorsed by conquer club if it is deliberate in the game design, and if timing out your turn to not collect a card is officially not exploiting a loophole and is not cheap tactics, or perceived cheating, then please add an additional end turn button that perhaps says time out turn do not collect spoils.
Last edited by Nicky15 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby HardAttack on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:08 pm

speed games, well yes have a very big bunch of additcts, but from the start point to now of this site never been the prior reason for a rule to be set. Like it is, "speed games" thought and meant to be a bonus game type/option given to premium members.
I liked and loved this approach, and still support it, that rules should focus on casual game exprience more than speed games.
This is what i think.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:13 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:I can clarify that currently, it is intentional that this tactic is allowed. We have discussed in the past whether we want to revisit this. The main argument, as IcePack points out, against the change in speed games is that it requires skill to be able to complete a turn on time, and this change would make it easier to play speed games because you wouldn't have to worry about ending your turn on time (obviously this has the biggest impact on freestyle). Doc's response is not really responsive because the reason why people wait out their turns is precisely because they want to be able to respond to everyone else's moves. If, as a result, no one gets to reinforce where they want, then everyone is on an even par. Still, it is not obvious to me that making speed freestyle games 'easier' in this respect is a bad thing; it might be good to add this safety in, as it would make it more possible for people with slower connections to compete (and might just increase new interest in freestyle in general). Nevertheless, we would certainly entertain a solution that made this change for all game types but speed freestyle.

The argument that players will have too much time to take their turns is a completely different subject. That seems more like a suggestion for still shorter turn limits(30 seconds?). The issue here is players deliberately letting their turn run out and wasting time right?
Like someone mentioned earlier, the only real solution seems to be having this rule be an option when you create a game.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:28 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I can clarify that currently, it is intentional that this tactic is allowed. We have discussed in the past whether we want to revisit this. The main argument, as IcePack points out, against the change in speed games is that it requires skill to be able to complete a turn on time, and this change would make it easier to play speed games because you wouldn't have to worry about ending your turn on time (obviously this has the biggest impact on freestyle). Doc's response is not really responsive because the reason why people wait out their turns is precisely because they want to be able to respond to everyone else's moves. If, as a result, no one gets to reinforce where they want, then everyone is on an even par. Still, it is not obvious to me that making speed freestyle games 'easier' in this respect is a bad thing; it might be good to add this safety in, as it would make it more possible for people with slower connections to compete (and might just increase new interest in freestyle in general). Nevertheless, we would certainly entertain a solution that made this change for all game types but speed freestyle.

The argument that players will have too much time to take their turns is a completely different subject. That seems more like a suggestion for still shorter turn limits(30 seconds?). The issue here is players deliberately letting their turn run out and wasting time right?


Yes, it's true that what Doc is trying to achieve is related to the latter issue, but I'm saying the two aren't disconnected, since there do exist speed freestyle games with more than 30 seconds. There is skill in being able to wait until the last few seconds of your turn, play your reinforcements correctly and then end your turn before time runs out to get a spoil. This would be erased with this change unless we turned the effect off for speed freestyle.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Ace Rimmer on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:49 pm

I would not have an issue with the rules being different for freestyle vs standard (and whether or not you include speed in that). Maybe all speed games you have to click end turn to get a spoil, standard games you do not. I think that is a well balanced approach that would fit the needs of two different groups of people (speed freestylers vs clan players) that have differing opinions.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby rdsrds2120 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:57 pm

As a speed freestyle player myself, I echo the concerns voiced by Metsfanmax. I've been contemplating this rule for about a week now and I arrived at the same conclusion that Ace has, which is to not change the rule for freestyle.

BMO
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Foxglove on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:44 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:As a speed freestyle player myself, I echo the concerns voiced by Metsfanmax. I've been contemplating this rule for about a week now and I arrived at the same conclusion that Ace has, which is to not change the rule for freestyle.

BMO


Is that your opinion as a player, or as an admin?

As an admin, do you acknowledge that the current behavior is intentional and as designed? Or that it's a bug that needs to be fixed?

A lot of the current clan discussion seems to have been predicated on the assumption that the behavior was a bug.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby ManBungalow on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:47 pm

I think taking/bombarding regions and not ending a turn is a legitimate tactic sometimes (especially in nuclear games), and not exclusively in speed games.

It's frowned up (particularly if a player makes a habit of it or it is outright irritating to another player), but still valid. The thing about perceived 'loopholes' such as this is that, if another player can exploit it, so can you.

And as already explored above, being punished for not ending soon enough by not gaining a card applies to freestyle speed games. I don't know if the game type is familiar to most people, but when every player in an 8-man freestyle escalating speed game has 5 cards in hand, it gets down to 10 seconds left in the forced-cash round when things start happening. It's a frantic rush to cash last, but also to end one's turn. Those who leave it too late/miscalculate may deploy the most troops, but miss out on a card. This is a nice quirk and I see no need to remove it.

And so, while I think this is a neat suggestion, I don't approve of it. Having it apply only to certain game types is a needless complication, and I don't think that players timing out and missing a card with 1 hour to take a turn is a commonplace problem.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby D4 Damager on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:14 pm

I completely support the OP's suggestion. I don't play or care about freestyle, so make a separate rule there if needs be, but in standard games it is stupid to allow people to avoid receiving a spoil if they timeout. I say stupid because the Instructions themselves say:

"You earn spoils at the end of every turn in which you successfully conquer a region, just like reality!"

Unless you want to argue that a turn that timed out did not end (which is also stupid, the turn has ended but before the player has had a chance to complete their intended actions) then what's happening in games at the moment simply does not match the site's own description.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby D4 Damager on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:26 pm

ManBungalow wrote:I think taking/bombarding regions and not ending a turn is a legitimate tactic sometimes (especially in nuclear games), and not exclusively in speed games..

This is self-evidently true - while the site allows no spoils when timing out, then people can and will exploit it. The question is: SHOULD it be a legitimate tactic?

The problem is that you have two sets of players; one set that try to play by the rules as intended (and described in the Instructions) and another that gain advantage from the loophole. That's why the site should explicitly back one or the other way of doing things, so there is no difference of expectation from players and therefore no unfair advantage.

ManBungalow wrote:I don't think that players timing out and missing a card with 1 hour to take a turn is a commonplace problem.
Maybe not commonplace but I timed out in a game a few days ago after making an attack because I got pulled away. I would really have appreciated getting the spoil, given that I had made the attack for that reason. Perhaps that's my fault for playing CC at work though! ;-)
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby mc05025 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:45 pm

I do not like that. Giving the opportunity toa player to decide if he should take a card or not makes the game more complicated. Deciding if you should take a card or not is not easy in many cases. I suppport any feature that makes the game more complicated and more intresting.

So I support more the idea of making a small button saying 'end turn without taking a spoil' (you will have to lose your reinforcement too if you chose that way to end your turn.
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Re: Automatically award spoils even if a player times out

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:51 pm

The point has been made before, and needs to be made here: consider what this would mean in real life. If you were playing the board game at the kitchen table, and someone finished his turn but forgot to take a card, would that stand? Or would you grab a card and hand it to him? I think the not-taking-spoil thing is an exploit. Granted it's an exploit the site has tolerated, but it's still not a genuine "strategy".
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