Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:10 am

chapcrap wrote:Ok, so you're saying that the difference is retroactive removal vs future removal? I honestly, kind of thought that they other suggestion wanted past cases looked at as well. If this is implemented and there is a case of cheating, I don't see why we wouldn't look to the past as well as the present.

Either why, I'll leave them as separate suggestions for now.

Thx Chap. If the other suggestion would have the exact same effect as this one I would of course agree with you that it's redundant.
I, for one, feel that the option to reopen every past instance of cheating for all players would create a huge workload for the C&A team but if that's the plan I won't argue. I just feel that the conqueror medal is the most worthy of retroactive proceedings and resources inherent.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Agent 86 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:00 am

Agent 86 wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
-More players will strive for this position if they know it can only be achieved and retained without bending the rules


That is impossible. end of discussion


FT, I think your cause is a noble one...but your quest would fail. Let's just make sure all future conquerors are worthy of the title ;)


Ok, FT if you want to put the time and effort into this I say go ahead. Why? Because as I stated it is a noble one and I do agree that the Conquerors of the site should represent the " Role Model " position of fair play. So I hope that if you do put in the hours of work and are prepared to answer to every question thrown at you, that you do succeed and bring back the integrity the site deserves of Conquerors of CC.

I tip my hat to you if you are able to pull this huge task off ;)
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby betiko on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:41 am

while I agree that we want conquerors to be legit, i bet that at least half of them could ve done borderline farmings at some point. Some will have nothing about some of their "techniques", some will say it's a scandal. the other issue here is that half of the conquerors are not active anymore.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby comic boy on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:58 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:I mean there is always going to be a new way to reach conqueror. some of the ways people used to do it were not thought of as a gross abuse of the game until....we all realized it was.

Finding a legit conqueror is impossible. There would be a new one every day if everyone was on the same playing field. People who deserve it wouldnt get it, but those who walk the borderline of edging out points would eventaully get it and we consider this to be cheating. (farming, playing with really low ranking people on your team only)

Not tht cheaters shouldn't loose their ill begotten gifts, but what we all want is someone who plays at a high level while playing good opponents on a map/settings everyone respects as legit. To be able to reach 4500 points playing this way is currently impossible. If I were to play doubles on das schloss (A popular team game amongnst clans) there would be no way to get to a high enough score. I may be good at the map and I may win 50 percent vs other teams who know the strategy.

That is why it is impossible to get to conqueror while not bending the rules/what others find as fair play and get there.

this wasn't very well worded ,but maybe you will get my point.

The suggestion is good but this line "More players will strive for this position if they know it can only be achieved and retained without bending the rules" is the essence of who conqueror is. A rule "bender" or innovator, if you will. There is no way to get enough points without it.


You have made one or two incorrect assumptions that I would like to clarify . Firstly it is possible to make it to the top of the scoreboard playing ' legitimate ' games , I became Conqueror mainly through points won on Standard 6 player escalating, no freestyle , 1 v 1 or noob farming whatsoever.
At the time I amassed around 3800 points , with inflation that probably amounts to 4200 points today , my top score was around 4500 and I managed to stay above 4000 for quite a long spell.
I know of a number of other players who play a similar mix of standard escalating/team games and hover around the 3700-4200 mark, given a fair wind any one of them could make Conqueror given a level playing field. It is though fair to say that luck would need to play a part in order to stay at the top for a long period , the scoring system makes such a feat very difficult.
The reason such players , in recent years , have not made Conqueror is purely because others have manipulated the system or plain cheated. In short it is quite possible for ' clean ' players to get to the top , providing the cheats and manipulators are banished.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby codeblue1018 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:48 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
-More players will strive for this position if they know it can only be achieved and retained without bending the rules


That is impossible. end of discussion


Impossible? Not even close to accurate mate. I have seen many achieve conqueror status by playing legitimately. I'm surprised you made such a statement as you've been around a while and probably seen deserving conquerors. 100% agree on Comic's post.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby spiesr on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:44 pm

What criteria would be used to determine what is cheating? The rules as are applied now or they way they were when the person was Conqueror? Some players reached that rank doing things that are disallowed now but were not specifically forbidden at the time.
What level of abuse is required for someone to be considered cheating? Something that would get them convicted of a Major Infraction, or just a Minor, or simply being sufficiently "cheap"?
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:33 pm

spiesr wrote:What criteria would be used to determine what is cheating? The rules as are applied now or they way they were when the person was Conqueror? Some players reached that rank doing things that are disallowed now but were not specifically forbidden at the time.
What level of abuse is required for someone to be considered cheating? Something that would get them convicted of a Major Infraction, or just a Minor, or simply being sufficiently "cheap"?

Well to me it only seems fair that the past conquerors should be put under the same light as more recent ones. It's not like these questionable players didn't know they were doing something that was abusive, they were just taking advantage of the fact that their practices were not yet explicitly disallowed by the letter of the rules. Those people who want to reminisce about said "questionable" conquerors can still do so, they just won't have the medal since it doesn't hold up under reasonable standards.
As far as what conviction need be charged in order for the player in question to lose his medal, I should think it would just be whatever would cause a current conqueror to lose his/hers.

I think a major point of all this is that it seems like there was a period in CC history where there was a mad dash to find and exploit any loopholes in order to get the conqueror position. The fact that it happened is unfortunate and those people got their time in the sun but it's high time the record was set straight. The best way I can see to do this is by stripping the conqueror medal from those players so that anyone who reads into this history will see that while you can slip through the cracks for a time on CC, it's not worth it in the long run.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby betiko on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:59 am

spiesr has a good point you are not really responding to. let's say there are some ex conquerors who did something like GLG but not as systematic. GLG's case was shaddy enough and it took ages to burst him. The only reason why they suspended him is because he was doing 95% this in my understanding. There were people defending GLG at the time. So if you start cases on stuff even more borderline, I doubt it would be considered.
Nevertheless, I remember an old post abou conquerors done by demonfork (before the conqueror medal existed) where he wrote down conqueror positions and a few were marked in rainbow because everybody knew they got there by cheating, it was common knowledge. So I'd say those can safely be stripped their conqeror medal (even if I'm not even sure they were given the medal when they came out).
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:41 pm

betiko wrote:spiesr has a good point you are not really responding to. let's say there are some ex conquerors who did something like GLG but not as systematic. GLG's case was shaddy enough and it took ages to burst him. The only reason why they suspended him is because he was doing 95% this in my understanding. There were people defending GLG at the time. So if you start cases on stuff even more borderline, I doubt it would be considered.
Nevertheless, I remember an old post abou conquerors done by demonfork (before the conqueror medal existed) where he wrote down conqueror positions and a few were marked in rainbow because everybody knew they got there by cheating, it was common knowledge. So I'd say those can safely be stripped their conqeror medal (even if I'm not even sure they were given the medal when they came out).

Do you have a link to demonfork's thread, Betiko? That might be useful.

I thought I responded to spiesr's point in that I thought that any practice that would be considered unworthy of the medal by a current conqueror should apply to any former one but maybe I need to explain my ideas further.
I think that the cases against conquerors are evolving to be more and more stringent and I believe this to be a positive trend as maintenance of the integrity of the conqueror title reflects the site's reputation as a whole and tends to keep a lid on distention. The good thing is we have archives of all the games ever played so to an extent there is no way of covering up ill deeds, it's just a matter of digging.

So to answer your question, theoretically there should be sufficient evidence to make a strong enough case against any previous conqueror if they were indeed shady.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby agentcom on Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:27 pm

I don't like the ex post facto nature of this punishment or tarnishing of someone's reputation. GLG got busted because he repeatedly engaged in behavior that he had been warned about. Many of the others that would fall into your desired net did no such thing. What one person sees as "exploiting a loophole" another will see as being the best at what they do. I think everyone who has ever weighed in on one of these Conqueror disputes has some idea of what the "best and most deserving" form of gameplay is on this site and wishes that it happened to be one of the ways to make Conqueror. But while there have been many ways that people have earned that status, the list of methods is surely a subset of a compilation of those aforementioned players' wishes and desires.

And lastly, I can see no other result from the implementation of this than a gigantic, undeserved headache for the C&A team, as well as other mods. If it wasn't for my other feelings about this suggestion, that would be enough in my mind to be opposed to it.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:41 pm

agentcom wrote:I don't like the ex post facto nature of this punishment or tarnishing of someone's reputation. GLG got busted because he repeatedly engaged in behavior that he had been warned about. Many of the others that would fall into your desired net did no such thing.

You make it sound like I'm plotting or something, I'm just wanting past conquerors to be put under the same scrutiny as recent ones for prosperity's sake. Besides, it's only fair to those who were stripped that others who were doing similar things should have theirs stripped as well. It's not like the site has been around for 20 years or something and people should be "grandfathered" into the title due to the "context of the period". This stuff is fairly recent.
Also, I've reasoned why the ex post facto nature is necessary in previous posts.

agentcom wrote:What one person sees as "exploiting a loophole" another will see as being the best at what they do. I think everyone who has ever weighed in on one of these Conqueror disputes has some idea of what the "best and most deserving" form of gameplay is on this site and wishes that it happened to be one of the ways to make Conqueror. But while there have been many ways that people have earned that status, the list of methods is surely a subset of a compilation of those aforementioned players' wishes and desires.

That's fine and the reason why I'm suggesting that the cases be reopened and held under the same light as more recent ones and by the same processes as you would expect a current conqueror.

agentcom wrote:And lastly, I can see no other result from the implementation of this than a gigantic, undeserved headache for the C&A team, as well as other mods.

Spread it out then. Deal with one conqueror a month if that will be easier on the C&A team or one every 2 months, whatever is reasonable. I realize that the mods, etc. are busy and there of course is no reason to rush if this were implemented. There aren't really all that many previous conquerors and once the process is over it will never have to be done again.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby betiko on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:07 am

there you go hugo.

viewtopic.php?t=150783
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Evil Semp on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:55 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Spread it out then. Deal with one conqueror a month if that will be easier on the C&A team or one every 2 months, whatever is reasonable. I realize that the mods, etc. are busy and there of course is no reason to rush if this were implemented. There aren't really all that many previous conquerors and once the process is over it will never have to be done again.


So when GLG got his punishment for farming we should have looked at past conquerors for farming. Then when Kiron got his punishment for SD/decider game abuse we would have had to look at all conquerors again for the new abuse. Then when it is decided that you can't become conqueror unless you play the game types that the masses want you to we have to go back and look at the game types that former conquerors played. Then we can go back a take away the conqueror medal away from those who used clickies before clickies were standard on the site. Then when/if we ever get to choose our colors we can ....and so on and so on and so on.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:59 pm

Evil Semp wrote:So when GLG got his punishment for farming we should have looked at past conquerors for farming. Then when Kiron got his punishment for SD/decider game abuse we would have had to look at all conquerors again for the new abuse. Then when it is decided that you can't become conqueror unless you play the game types that the masses want you to we have to go back and look at the game types that former conquerors played. Then we can go back a take away the conqueror medal away from those who used clickies before clickies were standard on the site. Then when/if we ever get to choose our colors we can ....and so on and so on and so on.


I can appreciate you analogy ES but it's an extreme one and arguably not all that applicable.

I'm only suggesting stripping of those who were blatantly taking advantage of faults/holes in the rules before they became sealed. If a previous conqueror was partaking in practices like those done by Kiron and GLG, of course they should have their medal stripped as well, that's my whole point here!

You're comparing the examples of a baseball player using steroids to gain a home run record and a modern baseball player gaining a record by having more games in a season/better equipment than an old-time player but no one would agree they are the same thing.

P.S. Thanks for the link, Betiko. ;)
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby chapcrap on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:21 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Evil Semp wrote:So when GLG got his punishment for farming we should have looked at past conquerors for farming. Then when Kiron got his punishment for SD/decider game abuse we would have had to look at all conquerors again for the new abuse. Then when it is decided that you can't become conqueror unless you play the game types that the masses want you to we have to go back and look at the game types that former conquerors played. Then we can go back a take away the conqueror medal away from those who used clickies before clickies were standard on the site. Then when/if we ever get to choose our colors we can ....and so on and so on and so on.


I can appreciate you analogy ES but it's an extreme one and arguably not all that applicable.

I'm only suggesting stripping of those who were blatantly taking advantage of faults/holes in the rules before they became sealed. If a previous conqueror was partaking in practices like those done by Kiron and GLG, of course they should have their medal stripped as well, that's my whole point here!

You're comparing the examples of a baseball player using steroids to gain a home run record and a modern baseball player gaining a record by having more games in a season/better equipment than an old-time player but no one would agree they are the same thing.

P.S. Thanks for the link, Betiko. ;)

Do you have any examples where this may be applied? There aren't that many former conquerors...
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:03 pm

chapcrap wrote:Do you have any examples where this may be applied? There aren't that many former conquerors...

Well I considered mentioning/comparing certain players earlier in the thread but decided against it as I don't want to single any one specific person. This is not an attempt to hunt out any particular individuals, just an attempt to make things right/fair in general.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby chapcrap on Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:53 am

So, I've been trying to decide exactly where to go with this thread.

It seems to me that the C&A Team does a pretty good job of punishing people when cases are brought forward to them. They have been fair and just, making the site a better place overall. In my estimation, they would look at any case brought to them, so this topic is mostly moot. I fail to see what anyway would like to see done that has not been done. In the past, medals have been stripped, point resets have been given, website bans have been handed down. Punishments in all shapes and sizes have been wrought on various usurpers of goodness and rules. To that end, it seems to me, this is already, effectively, implemented. Am I wrong in this or can I move the thread to Implemented. I'll wait a short period to hear rebuttals to my ascertation.
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