Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:16 am

greenoaks wrote:i get the difference, but as jsnyder is pointing out Conquerers get there by pushing the boundaries. what we now consider to be going too far may not have been back then. to apply today's morals to yesteryear's actions and then hand out punishments is wrong.

Ok but see here, it's been established that the scores reached by past conquerors cannot be beaten by legit gameplay. Do you see the conundrum that arises from this? Without retroactive practices you may never have another legit conqueror. This calls for taking away things gained in the past. It's the only way.
All a cheater has to do is slip through the cracks for a while then not play any more games and they will sit at the top indefinitely until another cheater knocks him off in an endless cycle. The current conqueror as well as the previous one are prime examples of this. Your system is counting way too heavily on people continuing to play once they've reached the top. It also has the downside of not being able to right past wrongs. CC can't practically have a statute of limitations.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby greenoaks on Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:09 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
greenoaks wrote:i get the difference, but as jsnyder is pointing out Conquerers get there by pushing the boundaries. what we now consider to be going too far may not have been back then. to apply today's morals to yesteryear's actions and then hand out punishments is wrong.

Ok but see here, it's been established that the scores reached by past conquerors cannot be beaten by legit gameplay. Do you see the conundrum that arises from this? Without retroactive practices you may never have another legit conqueror. This calls for taking away things gained in the past. It's the only way.
All a cheater has to do is slip through the cracks for a while then not play any more games and they will sit at the top indefinitely until another cheater knocks him off in an endless cycle. The current conqueror as well as the previous one are prime examples of this. Your system is counting way too heavily on people continuing to play once they've reached the top. It also has the downside of not being able to right past wrongs. CC can't practically have a statute of limitations.

you don't need to beat the scores of past Conquerers. you only need to beat the scores of current players.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:17 am

greenoaks wrote:you don't need to beat the scores of past Conquerers. you only need to beat the scores of current players.

Not if a past conqueror is at the top of the scoreboard.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby chapcrap on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:13 am

Is this substantially different that this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=170171#p3717624

It seems like the only difference is that this suggestion focuses on the Conqueror Medal.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:38 pm

chapcrap wrote:Is this substantially different that this: https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 1#p3717624

It seems like the only difference is that this suggestion focuses on the Conqueror Medal.

I think it is...
You can't effectively file a report against someone cheating when they did the cheating a year or two ago. I feel anyone holding the conqueror title's record should be scrutinized(even retroactively) more so than your average player since they are in a "role model" position and more strongly represent the site's tolerance of fair play, etc. There will always be cheating that goes unchecked due to limited resources but the conqueror position should be one of zero-tolerance in this regard.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby chapcrap on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:39 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
chapcrap wrote:Is this substantially different that this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=170171#p3717624

It seems like the only difference is that this suggestion focuses on the Conqueror Medal.

I think it is...
You can't effectively file a report against someone cheating when they did the cheating a year or two ago. I feel anyone holding the conqueror title's record should be scrutinized(even retroactively) more so than your average player since they are in a "role model" position and more strongly represent the site's tolerance of fair play, etc. There will always be cheating that goes unchecked due to limited resources but the conqueror position should be one of zero-tolerance in this regard.

So... What's the difference? Both ideas want medals removed for cheating.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:47 pm

chapcrap wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
chapcrap wrote:Is this substantially different that this: https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 1#p3717624

It seems like the only difference is that this suggestion focuses on the Conqueror Medal.

I think it is...
You can't effectively file a report against someone cheating when they did the cheating a year or two ago. I feel anyone holding the conqueror title's record should be scrutinized(even retroactively) more so than your average player since they are in a "role model" position and more strongly represent the site's tolerance of fair play, etc. There will always be cheating that goes unchecked due to limited resources but the conqueror position should be one of zero-tolerance in this regard.

So... What's the difference? Both ideas want medals removed for cheating.

The difference is if you are a past conqueror and a cheater you will lose your medal irregardless of when you got it or when you cheated. It seems to me that the "strip cheaters" suggestion is only going to apply to cheaters from here on in. The conqueror thing will be sort a retroactive investigation of sorts for the sake of the integrity the site. Unless of course the strip cheaters suggestion is going to go back through everyone ever in the history of conquer club found cheating and strip them of their medals? If so I suppose they would overlap but I don't think that is the case.
Basically what I'm suggesting is that every conqueror who ever got the medal should be investigated and if it turns out they cheated/bent the rules then they don't get to keep the medal. Why shouldn't the past conquerors be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as the more recent/current ones? They've still got the medal after all.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby greenoaks on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:36 pm

bending the rules is not against the rules.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:48 pm

greenoaks wrote:bending the rules is not against the rules.

What differentiates rule-bending and cheating is constantly being deliberated. What decides most of the time is the amount of energy put into discovery of evidence. The more evidence that piles up, the more the "bending" looks like "abuse" and abuse is considered by most to be a form of cheating. Ultimately the decision is up to administration as to where the line falls on each case.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby chapcrap on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:54 pm

Ok, so you're saying that the difference is retroactive removal vs future removal? I honestly, kind of thought that they other suggestion wanted past cases looked at as well. If this is implemented and there is a case of cheating, I don't see why we wouldn't look to the past as well as the present.

Either why, I'll leave them as separate suggestions for now.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:10 am

chapcrap wrote:Ok, so you're saying that the difference is retroactive removal vs future removal? I honestly, kind of thought that they other suggestion wanted past cases looked at as well. If this is implemented and there is a case of cheating, I don't see why we wouldn't look to the past as well as the present.

Either why, I'll leave them as separate suggestions for now.

Thx Chap. If the other suggestion would have the exact same effect as this one I would of course agree with you that it's redundant.
I, for one, feel that the option to reopen every past instance of cheating for all players would create a huge workload for the C&A team but if that's the plan I won't argue. I just feel that the conqueror medal is the most worthy of retroactive proceedings and resources inherent.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby Agent 86 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:00 am

Agent 86 wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
-More players will strive for this position if they know it can only be achieved and retained without bending the rules


That is impossible. end of discussion


FT, I think your cause is a noble one...but your quest would fail. Let's just make sure all future conquerors are worthy of the title ;)


Ok, FT if you want to put the time and effort into this I say go ahead. Why? Because as I stated it is a noble one and I do agree that the Conquerors of the site should represent the " Role Model " position of fair play. So I hope that if you do put in the hours of work and are prepared to answer to every question thrown at you, that you do succeed and bring back the integrity the site deserves of Conquerors of CC.

I tip my hat to you if you are able to pull this huge task off ;)
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby betiko on Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:41 am

while I agree that we want conquerors to be legit, i bet that at least half of them could ve done borderline farmings at some point. Some will have nothing about some of their "techniques", some will say it's a scandal. the other issue here is that half of the conquerors are not active anymore.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby comic boy on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:58 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:I mean there is always going to be a new way to reach conqueror. some of the ways people used to do it were not thought of as a gross abuse of the game until....we all realized it was.

Finding a legit conqueror is impossible. There would be a new one every day if everyone was on the same playing field. People who deserve it wouldnt get it, but those who walk the borderline of edging out points would eventaully get it and we consider this to be cheating. (farming, playing with really low ranking people on your team only)

Not tht cheaters shouldn't loose their ill begotten gifts, but what we all want is someone who plays at a high level while playing good opponents on a map/settings everyone respects as legit. To be able to reach 4500 points playing this way is currently impossible. If I were to play doubles on das schloss (A popular team game amongnst clans) there would be no way to get to a high enough score. I may be good at the map and I may win 50 percent vs other teams who know the strategy.

That is why it is impossible to get to conqueror while not bending the rules/what others find as fair play and get there.

this wasn't very well worded ,but maybe you will get my point.

The suggestion is good but this line "More players will strive for this position if they know it can only be achieved and retained without bending the rules" is the essence of who conqueror is. A rule "bender" or innovator, if you will. There is no way to get enough points without it.


You have made one or two incorrect assumptions that I would like to clarify . Firstly it is possible to make it to the top of the scoreboard playing ' legitimate ' games , I became Conqueror mainly through points won on Standard 6 player escalating, no freestyle , 1 v 1 or noob farming whatsoever.
At the time I amassed around 3800 points , with inflation that probably amounts to 4200 points today , my top score was around 4500 and I managed to stay above 4000 for quite a long spell.
I know of a number of other players who play a similar mix of standard escalating/team games and hover around the 3700-4200 mark, given a fair wind any one of them could make Conqueror given a level playing field. It is though fair to say that luck would need to play a part in order to stay at the top for a long period , the scoring system makes such a feat very difficult.
The reason such players , in recent years , have not made Conqueror is purely because others have manipulated the system or plain cheated. In short it is quite possible for ' clean ' players to get to the top , providing the cheats and manipulators are banished.
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Re: Strip Past Cheating Conquerors of their Conqueror Medals

Postby codeblue1018 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:48 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
-More players will strive for this position if they know it can only be achieved and retained without bending the rules


That is impossible. end of discussion


Impossible? Not even close to accurate mate. I have seen many achieve conqueror status by playing legitimately. I'm surprised you made such a statement as you've been around a while and probably seen deserving conquerors. 100% agree on Comic's post.
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