Tournament improvements

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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:13 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Everything else you suggest has to do with more automation of tournaments, which mostly just limits organizers because it's impossible to code every single tournament structure that is run on CC.


That was my initial reaction but there is a clause in the OP that allows TOs to revert to the old-style.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby greenoaks on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:02 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Everything else you suggest has to do with more automation of tournaments, which mostly just limits organizers because it's impossible to code every single tournament structure that is run on CC.


That was my initial reaction but there is a clause in the OP that allows TOs to revert to the old-style.

but as every team or sports franchise tournament would be excluded that mostly leaves 1v1, and it is not hard to type 'in please'.

this is a lot of work for almost no gain.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:14 pm

greenoaks wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Everything else you suggest has to do with more automation of tournaments, which mostly just limits organizers because it's impossible to code every single tournament structure that is run on CC.


That was my initial reaction but there is a clause in the OP that allows TOs to revert to the old-style.

but as every team or sports franchise tournament would be excluded that mostly leaves 1v1, and it is not hard to type 'in please'.

this is a lot of work for almost no gain.


I hadn't thought of the join issue, that's a good point, unless the join button also includes a "pick your map, settings, team name" field.

It does seem like a lot of work, but has worked successfully on other sites (Starcraft comes to mind, and yes I know it's not a website).
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby P4Ssoa on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:55 pm

Thanks for the information Night Strike! :-)

I however do not think everything has to be automated. You are right that automating everything would limit organizers and it is indeed impossible to code everything. I would just like to see tournaments being more user-friendly to organize.
Of course there could be a default setup for bracket tournaments. This can be automated, but the tournament organizers should still be able to create the tournament the way they want. They should still be able to make single games and invite people. Make an introduction page with the setup and rules for the tournament. Much would indeed be not that different at all from the current forum setup. But it would look a lot more professional. A lot more user friendly and a lot easier for tournament organizers (having an overview of the current games in their tournament, etc...) and for tournament participants (having the option to read and click the join button and know immidiately if you are accepted, and having the options to check your current tournament stats in a nice overview).

---------

Greenoaks, I'm going to get back at what you said before. "Most players are lazy!"
Well, you don't get anywhere without a little work^^ Yes it does take some work and I'm sure it would have lots of gain!
You just need to think of the possibilities and suggest them! This can be an interesting project with lots of benefits to the site. :-)

Also, like I said before, it doesn't need to be only 1vs1,.. for team tournaments an option could be implemented to reserve a spot for teammates. ;-)
And we can always revert to the old forum style for special tournaments that can not be made on the new tournament style. (Although I'm pretty sure you can make anything work if you think about a solution)

---------

DoomYoshi, indeed, that was just what I was thinking. :-)

---------
I agree, the current system works, but I'm trying to think out of the box. How can we make it better? How can we make it more professional?
Not all the options I mentioned were that good, but some cetainly are. Tournaments are in my opinion something that can make this website extra interesting. And it is worth the effort to improve this part of the website.
What kind of improvements would you like to see for the tournament section? :-)
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby agentcom on Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:03 pm

I think that the tournaments tab is just as easy to find at the top of the screen as it is if it was on the left. Easier even.

One of the things that I love about the Tournaments is how many unique ways there are to create them. I would love it if something like the mod tools that NS described were available to users (allowing them to see how many tourneys they entered, won, active, whatever). And it also would be nice to automate simple tournaments (perhaps you could create an automated tournament on map/settings you want to play and wait for it to fill ... no TO medal though).

But I wouldn't want to discourage or prevent people from running the crazy, unique tourneys on this site. I know you said that you can opt into the old system, but I just think a lot of care needs to be taken with that so that it doesn't discourage either the creation or the enrollment of these tourneys.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby greenoaks on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:24 am

P4Ssoa wrote:Also, like I said before, it doesn't need to be only 1vs1,.. for team tournaments an option could be implemented to reserve a spot for teammates. ;-

i accept teams, not dibs on a spot and i'll be back with a team.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby P4Ssoa on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:31 am

You are very right agentcom.
If something like this suggestion would get implemented, it should be done with a lot of care!
Overview of the things suggested above:
  • The tournament organizer should still be able to make his own crazy, unique tourneys. (No automations for tournament organizer, except for the simple bracket tournament, but then he shouldn't get a medal, i agree.)
  • Team tournaments should (of course) stay possible. (Some kind of reserve spot option)
  • Tournament organisers should be able to put restrictions for joining (example. X amount of games played, %attendance, rating, freemium/premium,...)

Extra features:
  • Users can see an overview of the tournaments they currently joined (and are not active yet, also with a link to the forum topic)
  • Users can see an overview of the tournaments that are active (with the current round and a link to the forum topic)
  • Users can see an overview of the tournaments they have completed. (with the round they got eliminated, who won and a link to the forum topic)

So how would it look like? I'll try to make a quick draft of what I'm thinking about:

Tournament tab on the left with subtabs: Create tournament, Manage tournaments, Join tournament, Active tournaments, Completed tournaments

Create tournament:
First option "bracket tournament" or "custom tournament"
Click on custom tournament and options will apear:
  • Tournament name
  • Amount of players
  • Amount of reserves
  • 1vs1, 2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4 (in case of team tournaments, an extra option whether players are allowed to reserve spots for teammates)
  • restrictions (Freemium/premium, %attendance, rank, rating,...)
  • Player info required before joining? (If checked,an extra text box will show up. Here you can write what information you would like to know extra from players. Players need to fill in this information after they click the join tournament button.
  • Tournament information (A very large textbox where all the info can be written down. Exactly like the first topic in the forum.)

Manage Tournament:
There would be 3 pages to choose from here: Players list, Tournament statistics, create games
Players list:
Here the tournament organiser can see the list of players with, if the 'Player info required before joining' option is checked, next to each player extra information. The tournament organiser would be able to change this information on request of the player.
Tournament statistics:
  • Table with all players. For each player you see the amount of games they won and lost, the games they played and the score for each game (won or loss).
  • A second table with stats for every round. Example: Round 1: list of players, games they played and whether they won or lost. (In this example the round would be the game label, I know different game labels are used now within one round, but this is something we should think about on how to get around that!) Round 2: List of players who made round 2, games they played and whether they won or lost.
Create games:
Here the Tournament organiser creates the games for his tournament. It should look exactly like the current create games page with one exeption: At the top, there is a box to fill in player names. When you click create game, the players in that game would be invited right away! Also when you click create game, the settings will not go back to default so you can just fill in the next player names. There will also be an option for the game label (Round name, important for the statistics)

Join tournament:
  • List of all the tournament names (+ amount of players in it and amount accepted (or how many reserves accepted))
  • Click on a tournament, you go to the information page and you see a list op players who have signed up.
  • At the bottom of the page, you can click join tournament
  • if the "Player info required before joining?" option is checked by the tournament organiser, the player will now see the message from the tournament organiser asking for extra information, and a textbox where they can write information in. This can be: favourite map + settings, character you want to play,...

Active tournaments:
  • List of your active tournaments. (first the one you last joined)
  • Next to each tournament, the current round (if the tournament has started yet) and you can click on the tournament name to go to the forum topic. Somewhere next to each tournament should also be the extra information you signed up with (like favourite map,...)

Completed tournaments
  • List of tournaments you participated in
  • Next to each tournament, the round you were eliminated and the tournament winner.


When the tournament organizer creates a tournament, a topic will be automatically created with the name of the tournament as topic title and the first post being the tournament information. Here players and tournament organizer can still discuss things in the old way. :-)


That's pretty much how I see it. I know there are some flaws in it. Maybe we can work it out together? :-)
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby P4Ssoa on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:19 am

So what do you guys think about draft in my last post?
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:45 pm

II haven't had time to fully read. Why would TOs give up their medals and sign up for automatic tournaments?
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby greenoaks on Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:04 pm

P4Ssoa wrote:So what do you guys think about draft in my last post?

we don't think much of it.

no comments about it shows you are trying to change a system we are happy with, or at the very least not unhappy with.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby Serbia on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:31 am

The parts that I like most in these suggestions is the idea of being able to click on a drop-down and find which tournaments you're currently active in. When I was playing in a lot of tourneys at a once, there were times when I'd receive game invites to a tourney which had been inactive for a while, for whatever reason, and I'd totally forgotten I was in it! I never knew exactly how many tournaments I was playing in at any given time. Also, an easy way to look back at the tournaments you've participated in would also be cool.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby P4Ssoa on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:35 am

You say, "We don't think much of it." So you see yourself as the whole community? Or you think you can speak for the whole community?
Did you even take a look at it greenoaks? Because if you didn't, I would say that's very unrespectful... I put a lot of time in writing that post.
You may think you contribute a lot to this forum or whatever, but unrespectful comments like yours make me want to stay out of the forum. I don't care if my idea gets put to the ground, if it happens on a respectful way, with good arguments.

Maybe the community doesn't care, maybe the community is just too inactive, maybe they don't care about tournaments at all,...
In my opinion, when the improvements are implemented, it would be a very big step forward for this website.


IRT: Doomyoshi:
Thanks for commenting. :-) I hope you can read more later!

I would say they start a tournament because it's fun. When it's fully automated it wouldn't be worth a medal though. Everyone can start a tournament in that case. People would make tournaments, because they want to play in a tournament with a certain setup then. Just like the normal games, but then in a bigger picture.
I'm not sure if automated tournaments is a good idea though...
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby greenoaks on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:40 pm

P4Ssoa wrote:You say, "We don't think much of it." So you see yourself as the whole community? Or you think you can speak for the whole community?
Did you even take a look at it greenoaks? Because if you didn't, I would say that's very unrespectful... I put a lot of time in writing that post.
You may think you contribute a lot to this forum or whatever, but unrespectful comments like yours make me want to stay out of the forum. I don't care if my idea gets put to the ground, if it happens on a respectful way, with good arguments.

Maybe the community doesn't care, maybe the community is just too inactive, maybe they don't care about tournaments at all,...
In my opinion, when the improvements are implemented, it would be a very big step forward for this website.


IRT: Doomyoshi:
Thanks for commenting. :-) I hope you can read more later!

I would say they start a tournament because it's fun. When it's fully automated it wouldn't be worth a medal though. Everyone can start a tournament in that case. People would make tournaments, because they want to play in a tournament with a certain setup then. Just like the normal games, but then in a bigger picture.
I'm not sure if automated tournaments is a good idea though...

it is not disrespectful to point out the community were not making comments about it. it is called a fact.

your suggestion does not excite the community. half the posts in this thread are from you. most of the rest are from me.

it seems YOU have decided there is a problem and thankfully for us, YOU are capable of fixing it.

thankyou for stopping by, please do so again.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby P4Ssoa on Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:42 pm

IRT Greenoaks: Please don't stop by again, because like I said in my first post:
Greenoaks, with 7903 posts I am sure you know your way around this website. With 33 tournament wins, I'm sure you also know everything about tournaments. But you really disappoint me with the content (or better yet lack of content) in your last reply. It's clear that the threshold for posting isn't very high for you.


Stop spamming the forums man. You only made 1 single decent post in this whole topic. One single post where you actually had an argument.
You made it clear you don't like the idea. Now you can move along, because you don't add any value to the topic whatsoever.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:28 pm

So why should everything be coded into the site instead of controlled by the users? I don't understand the necessity.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby P4Ssoa on Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:51 pm

Night Strike wrote:So why should everything be coded into the site instead of controlled by the users? I don't understand the necessity.


I think there is a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying it shouldn't be controlled by the users!
I think it should absolutely stay controlled by the users, but on a special tournament platform. This to give tournaments a more professional approach. The forums work, but are basic. Maybe if you click on the spoiler tab in my first post, it will get more clear to you.
I indeed did suggest autmating bracket tournaments, but I think I should rethink this idea. The comments above did make it clear that automating a tournament, would be too easy and no honor should be given to the organizer, which makes it pointless for organizing. (except if you want to play in a specific bracket tournament, but if everyone should make his own automated tournament, there would be too many and the whole concept would fail...)

A special platform could hold more tournament features then the current forum setup.
A couple examples: Tournament statistics (active and completed tournament overview), subscribe to a tournament by clicking a button, better overview on the tournament you are organizing.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:09 pm

P4Ssoa wrote:A special platform could hold more tournament features then the current forum setup.


Incorrect. No single system could be coded to provide the variety of tournaments that posting them in the forum allows. Currently, an organizer is limited by only what they choose to deal with, excluding a few specific rules. There are some features that can be included and will be over time, but I don't see the need to code the system to do the work for you. "Professional" just means the site does the work instead of the organizer. CC Tournaments are designed to be user-driven content, not site-driven.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby blakebowling on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:24 pm

Night Strike wrote:
P4Ssoa wrote:A special platform could hold more tournament features then the current forum setup.


Incorrect. No single system could be coded to provide the variety of tournaments that posting them in the forum allows. Currently, an organizer is limited by only what they choose to deal with, excluding a few specific rules. There are some features that can be included and will be over time, but I don't see the need to code the system to do the work for you. "Professional" just means the site does the work instead of the organizer. CC Tournaments are designed to be user-driven content, not site-driven.

I agree with NS that there is a lot more creativity in the tournaments section because you have to do the work manually. However, I would like to see a bit of automation (i.e. players can click "Join" instead of posting in a thread, TO's can setup simple themed tournaments and mass-create games for the same group of players (i.e. I have 6 players together per round, each of them has chosen a "home" game configuration (map, settings, etc) and they all play all 6 games against each other), winner "reporting" (i.e. you can go in and look at Round X and see who won which games that round)). I do not like the idea of fully automated tournaments though, on occasion they are nice (such as the Conquer Cup), but having them all automated would de-value the whole of Tournaments. Of course, before any of these changes are made, I will get feedback from the TO's to see exactly what they want/need from such an update.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby Night Strike on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:42 pm

blakebowling wrote:Of course, before any of these changes are made, I will get feedback from the TO's to see exactly what they want/need from such an update.


Thought that was what we TDs are for. And the features that we truly want are supposedly already on a list for the future.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby blakebowling on Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:06 am

Night Strike wrote:
blakebowling wrote:Of course, before any of these changes are made, I will get feedback from the TO's to see exactly what they want/need from such an update.


Thought that was what we TDs are for. And the features that we truly want are supposedly already on a list for the future.

As far as I'm concerned, the TD's are TO's as well (for the most part). I also thought it was obvious that the TD's would be included in the feedback.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:31 am

blakebowling wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
blakebowling wrote:Of course, before any of these changes are made, I will get feedback from the TO's to see exactly what they want/need from such an update.


Thought that was what we TDs are for. And the features that we truly want are supposedly already on a list for the future.

As far as I'm concerned, the TD's are TO's as well (for the most part). I also thought it was obvious that the TD's would be included in the feedback.

it's not obvious to me, NS rarely runs a tourney. should we rarely ask for his opinion?

TD's are your contact point, they have their finger on the pulse. if you need to know something and they don't know the answer they'll get it for you.

it's like i've been suggesting elsewhere in this thread, if it ain't broke, don't try to rebuild the way things are done around here.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby P4Ssoa on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:35 am

I think there is a real misunderstanding here though! I do not want tournaments to be fully automated. You are very right to say that the way things currently are creates a lot of space for creativity. I don't want to change this. The current topic system shouldn't disappear in my opinion. However, I do think some things can be improved.

The 'platform' I'm talking about gives a lot of overview and it also leaves space for future improvements.
This platform could still be linked with the forum topic. The options I suggested when you would click create tournament are mainly for when players want to join a tournament.
If you create a list with all tournaments, with a button to join a tournament automatically, you would want to know several things.
A) Tournament name (this is how your tournament will show up on the list.)
B) Amount of players and reserves (if filled, the tournament will disappear automatically from the 'Join tournament' list
C) Team games or single player (in case of team games, you will need to invite teammates before you can join the tournament)
D) Restrictions. (don't meet the requiremens? Then you are not able to click the 'Join tournament' button.
E) Player info required before joining? (This text will pop up when someone clicks the join button. Do you need to give up a certain map? A certain character name? Maybe settings for the games you'll play? You can ask your players this here, and when they click the join button, they will be asked to fill in what you ask them.
F) Tournament information = the content of the current forum topic! After creating the tournament, this info will be shown when you click on a tournament on the join page. Also when you create a tournament, a forum topic (exactly like we have now) will be created and this will be the content. The forum topic title will be the name of your tournament.

Tournament organizers will still do everything manually! My initial idea was to include an automation for bracket tournaments, but like people wrote before, this won't be a good idea.


The first goal of my suggestion is to create space and overview. After this, other improvements can be made, like automatition for joining a tournament, Mass create games, winner reporting.

Ps: Greenoaks, if you had an old nokia 3310, (the bastard almost never breaks.) you will never have that shiny iPhone then?
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:04 am

P4Ssoa wrote:Ps: Greenoaks, if you had an old nokia 3310, (the bastard almost never breaks.) you will never have that shiny iPhone then?

haha, i have a Samsung. one of those slide ones. i have dropped it so many times and it bounces, not breaks like a shiny iPhone.

my kids think i'm weird because there is no touchscreen, no internet, no megapixal camera. the thing is it does what it is suppose to do (phone calls, txt msgs & my morning alarm) and it doesn't matter what i do - i can't break it.

that's what our tournament system is like. reliable. day after day.

your mega-overhaul will fail P4Ssoa. we TO's need reliable. we need functional, no matter what crazy concept we envisage (some tweaks would be nice but NS already has a list of those for us). what we need is a sandbox to allow us to be creative. we have that.

drop this world changing crusade and help us tweak what we have ;)
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby P4Ssoa on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:35 am

Haha, I guess my quote was a bullseye then! :D

If you look at the whole concept, it doesn't need to be inreliable or afunctional. The sandbox concept doesn't need to change.
(Maybe I do want to get rid of the box, but I'd like to create a desert instead, where the same creativity is possible, but with room for improvement!)
I want to make it possible to grow and improve, and the foundations, like they have been should not change. It can (and maybe even should) still be forum based. I wish I could code a website, so I could create the layout and show you a preview.

Every tournament would still have it's forum topic. The topic would be created when you create a tournament. (automatically, as the topic title is the tournament title and the first post content is the content of tournament information)
Every TO can still make a tournament the way he wants. There should be room for this. The concept I have in mind should not block any creativity. That would be very bad, and we really don't want that.

Maybe I am trying to make a world changing crusade, and I know 99% of the time, trying something like this is useless. I am just convinced that this would be a revolution for tournaments on this website, and that's worth the other 1%.
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Re: Tournament improvements

Postby Night Strike on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:16 pm

Currently when tournaments are entered into the database, they are checked to make sure the tournament meets the minimum requirements. Your system removes that check.

You're to the point that you may be making it too easy for players to join tournaments. Going to the forum at least requires enough effort that most people will play in the tournament without disappearing. If all you have to do is click a button to join, then you're probably going to have more people who won't actually join their games.
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