[GP/UI] Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

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[GP/UI] Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby FabledIntegral on Tue May 06, 2008 4:59 am

Topics have been merged. The suggestion in it's current form is quoted by Dukasaur here, modified slightly.

Dukasaur wrote:In Escalating Spoils games, once the cash reaches 100 it increases by 10% of the previous cash, instead of a steady progression by 5s.

This will be genuinely Escalating spoils: after 100 there will be a hyperbolic instead of the current arithmetic (straight line) progression.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
There is a generally-accepted belief that escalating games don't stalemate. Unfortunately, more and more often we are seeing escalating games that do stalemate, or at least take a very long time to play. The old progression was designed when most of the maps were wide-open maps like Classic or Hong Kong. Maps have gotten bigger and more complex. They have many dead ends for players to hide in, and numerous bonuses that make the spoils less important. Larger armies are needed to break open the defensive lines that are causing stalemated games on maps like the Hive, Supermax, Conquer Rome, Das Schloss, and even World 2.1.



Original Suggestion wrote:Concise description:
In speed freestyle games, games often turn into a stalemate simply because it benefits no one to attack. Stalemates like this occur when the ability to cash garners less armies than it would be to simply sit back and do nothing. Thus the players sit back... and do nothing. No incentive is made to attack others because they'll get 225 armies or so for killing someone... when they have to blow through 400 armies to kill someone. So no one does anything, and continents at this point in teh game are useless

Specifics:
I propose that after the 100 army turn-in point, the armies should start increasing by 15-20 armies instead of by a mere 5. Therefore games won't end in stalemates and people will be able to continue to have an incentive to eliminate others.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
-Help stop stalemates late game in escalating games, whether speed or casual.

Look at this game, it was going on forever... (also watch the chat logs of Blue being a moron)... It went down to a threeway stalemate between yellow, grey, and I. Eventually we let yellow win the game not because he was ahead (he was the weakest) but simply because he had eliminated the most players during the course of the game, and it was the only solution we could agree upon.

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=2380676

Having games end like that, which apparently get to that state often, is terrible...
Last edited by bigWham on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:51 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Reason: For clarification of Suggestion
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby jiminski on Tue May 06, 2008 9:22 am

I think this is a very sensible idea .. perhaps the increase would need to keep increasing in order to give a certain conclusion and ensure a viable take-out attempt.
For example the cash value could escalate as follows: 100, 120, 150, 190, 240, 300.

It would certainly cause more action and diminish the possibility of stagnation. (like increasing blinds in Poker)

The increase at 100 cash value, is probably 'about' right (perhaps it would need to be a little higher to placate some); generally this is where the game reaches the point of no return. Where the kill is not worth the return gained by a cash and all players are dug-in for a stalemate game; locked in prayer for an opponents 3 day loss of Internet, Meteor-strike or death of a dear family pet.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby jiminski on Sat May 10, 2008 8:40 am

bump to end stalemates!
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby DiM on Sat May 10, 2008 9:04 am

jiminski wrote:I think this is a very sensible idea .. perhaps the increase would need to keep increasing in order to give a certain conclusion and ensure a viable take-out attempt.
For example the cash value could escalate as follows: 100, 120, 150, 190, 240, 300.

It would certainly cause more action and diminish the possibility of stagnation. (like increasing blinds in Poker)

The increase at 100 cash value, is probably 'about' right (perhaps it would need to be a little higher to placate some); generally this is where the game reaches the point of no return. Where the kill is not worth the return gained by a cash and all players are dug-in for a stalemate game; locked in prayer for an opponents 3 day loss of Internet, Meteor-strike or death of a dear family pet.


i agree with the 100 cash value as a start and i especially agree with the non-linear increase.
something like
100
100+10
110+20
130+30
160+40
200+50
etc

or perhaps an even steeper increase
100
100+20
120+40
160+80
240+160
400+320
720+640
etc. this would definitelly put an end to stalemates in escalating games
and for anybody that thinks stalemates in escalating is impossible look at Game 1432626. it's horrible :(
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby lord voldemort on Sat May 10, 2008 9:14 am

if this was limited to only speed games i see it as viable
cause there are build games and it would get kinda silly if your playing a build game. and yer. if you get me
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby DiM on Sat May 10, 2008 9:18 am

lord voldemort wrote:if this was limited to only speed games i see it as viable
cause there are build games and it would get kinda silly if your playing a build game. and yer. if you get me


if you're playing a build game then this would be even better because you'd get HUGE armies ;)
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby lord voldemort on Sat May 10, 2008 9:21 am

DiM wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:if this was limited to only speed games i see it as viable
cause there are build games and it would get kinda silly if your playing a build game. and yer. if you get me


if you're playing a build game then this would be even better because you'd get HUGE armies ;)

true but its almost overkill...
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby jiminski on Sat May 10, 2008 9:31 am

DiM wrote:i agree with the 100 cash value as a start and i especially agree with the non-linear increase....

or perhaps an even steeper increase
100
100+20
120+40
160+80
240+160
400+320
720+640
etc. this would definitelly put an end to stalemates in escalating games
and for anybody that thinks stalemates in escalating is impossible look at Game 1432626. it's horrible :(


yeap! it certainly would stop the stalemate!

And yes Stalemate games are pretty frequent in Esc, this one would have gone on forever if we had not negotiated an end : Game 949774

this one we are hoping for a death in the family a joke in poor taste as negotiations are complex (and i do not much like negotiating an end.. they do a disservice to the game): Game 1779532
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby Kemmler on Sat May 10, 2008 12:21 pm

yep awesome idea. Rashid would support stalemates, especially speed are horrible
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby bbqpenguin on Sat May 10, 2008 3:01 pm

i like this idea and give my blessing ;)
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat May 10, 2008 7:02 pm

I think I'd be in support of such an idea also, though I rarely last that far into games!


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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby Incandenza on Sat May 10, 2008 7:26 pm

I think that this is an excellent idea, as I've been agitating for some sort of solution to various types of stalemate for some time now.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby negoeien on Sat May 10, 2008 8:08 pm

very nice idea!
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby FabledIntegral on Sun May 11, 2008 5:01 am

Concerning Build games... they aren't even legit games...! Everyone know whoever pulls the trigger first would most likely win anyways, considering attackers' advantage...

But yeah, I'm open to any change, but I've been in multiple stalemates now, and they suck quite badly.

It could even be subtle...

At 100 they start increasing by 10.
At 200 they start increasing by 20.
At 300 they start increasing by 30... etc.

You guys gotta remember how much faster they would reach those numbers too. Atm the time it takes to get from 100 --> 200 is 20 sets turned in, now it would only be 10, then 5, then 4, etc. We don't want to dramatically alter it, but that's something how I could see it turning.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby steve monkey on Sun May 11, 2008 5:55 am

Good idea, stalemates are happening now with monotonous regularity.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby DiM on Sun May 11, 2008 8:40 am

FabledIntegral wrote:Concerning Build games... they aren't even legit games...! Everyone know whoever pulls the trigger first would most likely win anyways, considering attackers' advantage...

But yeah, I'm open to any change, but I've been in multiple stalemates now, and they suck quite badly.

It could even be subtle...

At 100 they start increasing by 10.
At 200 they start increasing by 20.
At 300 they start increasing by 30... etc.

You guys gotta remember how much faster they would reach those numbers too. Atm the time it takes to get from 100 --> 200 is 20 sets turned in, now it would only be 10, then 5, then 4, etc. We don't want to dramatically alter it, but that's something how I could see it turning.


actually if it is a subtle change then it won't change anything. the point of this suggestion is to make the sets worth so much that you are actually tempted to eliminate an opponent and take his cards. for example i'm in a stalemate where each player has 15-20k troops and the sets are just over 1000. so it's not worth killing.

if they increase by 10 then by 20 and so on they would still allow a lot of armies to be gathered and still won't offer any incentive to attack.

that's why i think a very steep increase would surely end all stalemates. something like this:
100
100+20
120+40
160+80
240+160
400+320
720+640
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby jiminski on Sun May 11, 2008 1:47 pm

DiM wrote:
FabledIntegral wrote:Concerning Build games... they aren't even legit games...! Everyone know whoever pulls the trigger first would most likely win anyways, considering attackers' advantage...

But yeah, I'm open to any change, but I've been in multiple stalemates now, and they suck quite badly.

It could even be subtle...

At 100 they start increasing by 10.
At 200 they start increasing by 20.
At 300 they start increasing by 30... etc.

You guys gotta remember how much faster they would reach those numbers too. Atm the time it takes to get from 100 --> 200 is 20 sets turned in, now it would only be 10, then 5, then 4, etc. We don't want to dramatically alter it, but that's something how I could see it turning.


actually if it is a subtle change then it won't change anything. the point of this suggestion is to make the sets worth so much that you are actually tempted to eliminate an opponent and take his cards. for example i'm in a stalemate where each player has 15-20k troops and the sets are just over 1000. so it's not worth killing.

if they increase by 10 then by 20 and so on they would still allow a lot of armies to be gathered and still won't offer any incentive to attack.

that's why i think a very steep increase would surely end all stalemates. something like this:
100
100+20
120+40
160+80
240+160
400+320
720+640



Yeap, the increase has to be significantly more each time.
I have no precise idea whether the above is exactly right (it 'may' need to be slightly less steep) but its essential basis is certainly in the right area (as ending the game is the object, it may as well be exactly the above figures). If the increase is much less exaggerated the object is defeated.
Last edited by jiminski on Sun May 11, 2008 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby khazalid on Sun May 11, 2008 1:52 pm

nice idea!
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby lancehoch on Sun May 11, 2008 2:02 pm

As another idea, maybe using a Fibonacci sequence from the start would work just as well (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,...). This would be less per turn-in up to the 8th turn-in, then at the 9th turn-in, this would become more than the current escalating values. What do people think about this idea?
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby jiminski on Sun May 11, 2008 2:13 pm

lancehoch wrote:As another idea, maybe using a Fibonacci sequence from the start would work just as well (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,...). This would be less per turn-in up to the 8th turn-in, then at the 9th turn-in, this would become more than the current escalating values. What do people think about this idea?


hmmm (Dan would be proud of you) i think that changes the dynamics of the early game.

the point is, before 100 cash (or there abouts) you still have a chance for the game to end 'naturally' with a series of kills or a mistake/ bad dice on a kill attempt.
the problem is that in some games (higher ranking games in particular; due to a plethora of reasons including: skill, intelligence, fear of condemnation, embarrassment at being yelled at and/or cursed by a virtual gypsy!) the worth of a kill becomes superseded by its cost. This usually occurs at around the 100 cash mark. (few people have disagreed so far.)

the suggestion seems to be a good solution which allows the game a chance to end but bloody well ends it at the point of no return,
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby lancehoch on Sun May 11, 2008 2:18 pm

That is fine, I was just presenting another option. I have not gotten into any of those build games, so I did not really have a basis of where the change needs to be.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby DiM on Sun May 11, 2008 2:19 pm

lancehoch wrote:As another idea, maybe using a Fibonacci sequence from the start would work just as well (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,...). This would be less per turn-in up to the 8th turn-in, then at the 9th turn-in, this would become more than the current escalating values. What do people think about this idea?


while it may not be bad i don't believe it will work.

changing values starting with the 100th cash in means only a few games will be affected (stalemates and build games)
changing values right from the start will completely screw the whole strategy behind escalating games.

for example at the moment in a 6p escalating it's worth being last cause you get to cash 20 troops and you have a chance of ending the game and even if you don't you still have a nice number of troops and can avoid being eliminated.

with your suggestion if you are 6th you get just 8 troops you won't do shit with them and by the time your turn comes again. people will have cash-ins of 13,21,34,55,89 so i think it's safe to assume your turn will not come again. :lol:

edit// damn. fastposted by a lot.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby cicero on Sun May 11, 2008 2:46 pm

I like this idea. It addresses a problem that CC types have been grappling with for some time - see AAFitz's Negotiated peace in obscenely long games, DiM's Stalemate Solution - Armageddon and, again DiM's, Maximum rounds in a game.

I have to say I've never experience such a game myself but finding a solution to the problem is interesting ;).

I think that the OP's idea as modified by DiM's series of escalations is spot on:

DiM wrote:I think a very steep increase would surely end all stalemates. something like this:
100
100+20
120+40
160+80
240+160
400+320
720+640


... and captures the essence of what the community was striving for in those other threads - albeit only for escalating games.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby Seulessliathan on Tue May 13, 2008 6:45 am

jiminski wrote:I think this is a very sensible idea .. perhaps the increase would need to keep increasing in order to give a certain conclusion and ensure a viable take-out attempt.
For example the cash value could escalate as follows: 100, 120, 150, 190, 240, 300.


sounds like a great idea, always +5 has given us a lot of stalmates, i guess this is the best solution i have heard so far.
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Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby FabledIntegral on Sat May 17, 2008 2:38 am

Do mods actually look at these topics and take into consideration?
Major FabledIntegral
 
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