[GP/UI] Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby MoB Deadly on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:07 pm

Support.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby pickleofdoom on Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:09 pm

The PoD supports the exponential system for large maps.

Hyperbolic spoils could be useful for maps that look like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hyperbolic_tiling_omnitruncated_3-7.png

:)
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:13 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:This is interesting, but it doesn't seem like it would make it as a stand-alone spoil setting I think.


--Andy

It's not intended as a new setting. It's intended as a fix of the existing Escalating setting.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:29 am

Dukasaur wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:This is interesting, but it doesn't seem like it would make it as a stand-alone spoil setting I think.


--Andy

It's not intended as a new setting. It's intended as a fix of the existing Escalating setting.

Mmhm. It'd be interesting to see how much real support this has, since it would really change the way escalating games are played once you get towards the higher cashes. Since escalating is pretty fairly popular setting, there are probably a lot of opinions on it.


--Andy
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby greenoaks on Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:00 am

the current escalating spoils are not broken and don't require fixing.

as a separate spoil option it is too similar to what is currently available to achieve implementation.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby chapcrap on Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:20 pm

I would be in favor of increasing the cashes at a higher amount.

Most games that I have played in do not get to 100 for the cash. The games that this will primarily effect are those that are starting to stalemate.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby cvlngnir on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:40 pm

This would definately help in the Trench Warfare games on the big maps. I am in one now that has no end in sight.
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World 2.1, Trench, Escalating
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby 72o on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:50 pm

My suggestion of "Exponential Spoils" is a completely different spoils game altogether, totally changing the strategy and making the game much more exciting. Check it out and provide feedback please:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=177563
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:35 am

deantursx wrote:
Criticalwinner wrote:
deantursx wrote:I agree that this needs to be done. City Mogul 4 player escalating for example...that almost always deadlocks because the spoils don't compare to the autodeploys, but with more rapidly increasing spoils those games would be more likely to finish.


That's a map flaw, and up to the user to play that one..... It's a well-known fact that City Mogul just transcends all boundaries.



Okay what about Hive, World 2.1, and First Nations Americas? They all have a huge chance of deadlocking...Also, 3-player on any map has a good chance of it

Exactly. Even Fractured China.
DoomYoshi wrote:Conquer Rome...

That too.
greenoaks wrote:the current escalating spoils are not broken and don't require fixing.

Maybe not "broken" but certainly not perfect. Escalating spoils are supposed to prevent deadlocks, but we do see deadlocked games on the larger maps. When there's stacks of 1600 sitting around, cashing for another 400 isn't enough of a game-changer to get things going again.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:58 am

Dukasaur wrote:
deantursx wrote:
Criticalwinner wrote:
deantursx wrote:I agree that this needs to be done. City Mogul 4 player escalating for example...that almost always deadlocks because the spoils don't compare to the autodeploys, but with more rapidly increasing spoils those games would be more likely to finish.


That's a map flaw, and up to the user to play that one..... It's a well-known fact that City Mogul just transcends all boundaries.



Okay what about Hive, World 2.1, and First Nations Americas? They all have a huge chance of deadlocking...Also, 3-player on any map has a good chance of it

Exactly. Even Fractured China.
DoomYoshi wrote:Conquer Rome...

That too.
greenoaks wrote:the current escalating spoils are not broken and don't require fixing.

Maybe not "broken" but certainly not perfect. Escalating spoils are supposed to prevent deadlocks, but we do see deadlocked games on the larger maps. When there's stacks of 1600 sitting around, cashing for another 400 isn't enough of a game-changer to get things going again.


Hm, I missed this suggestion while I was on hiatus from the site, but I like it. As long as we put the change in late enough that it doesn't affect the majority of escalating games, but does act to prevent stalemates, this would be a good fix to escalating. 100 seems like a reasonable target, or perhaps 200.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby waauw on Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:15 am

I like this idea, I keep getting stuck in escalating games lately, especially in combination with trench.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby betiko on Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:39 am

I like the idea. If an escalating reaches 100 cash it s not normal and it s been stalling for a few rounds. It does need a fix.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby HardAttack on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:56 pm

what about keep it same through cash value = 75...starting from 75 set the increment to be 6-7-8-9-....instead 5-5-5-5-... ?
not sure but setting increment to be a fixed new value after reaching a certain value, if it wud brought new problems ?
the 6-7-8-9-... fashion is ignorable increment while having same effect once it is reached to 100 units or something.

in this fashion, say once 150 reached, it is what ? 12 or 13 ? something like that.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby maxfaraday on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:00 pm

betiko wrote:I like the idea. If an escalating reaches 100 cash it s not normal and it s been stalling for a few rounds. It does need a fix.


There's already one. It's called "round limit".
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:24 pm

maxfaraday wrote:
betiko wrote:I like the idea. If an escalating reaches 100 cash it s not normal and it s been stalling for a few rounds. It does need a fix.


There's already one. It's called "round limit".


Sure, but the whole point of escalating is that it is not supposed to drag on forever (and usually it does not). Round Limit games are very useful for options like No Spoils, where there's no easy way out of a deadlock. If an escalating game results in frequent deadlocks, then the setting isn't working properly.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:48 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
maxfaraday wrote:
betiko wrote:I like the idea. If an escalating reaches 100 cash it s not normal and it s been stalling for a few rounds. It does need a fix.


There's already one. It's called "round limit".


Sure, but the whole point of escalating is that it is not supposed to drag on forever (and usually it does not). Round Limit games are very useful for options like No Spoils, where there's no easy way out of a deadlock. If an escalating game results in frequent deadlocks, then the setting isn't working properly.


Round Limit games are also a completely different setting. In a regular game, you play to eliminate your opponents which involves attacking. In a round limit game, every attack you make lowers your chance of victory. They are totally different games and seriously need an overhaul, but that's a different story.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby chapcrap on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:51 am

So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:46 pm

chapcrap wrote:So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?


Nobody has opposed the scale from the OP.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:07 pm

The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby rishaed on Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:17 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?

Have the code use the general rounding system (ie. Everything above .5 goes up, while everything below goes down?) Either that or just round it up. (Ie. Use his system however have a limiter which restricts it to integers).
Otherwise, I haven't played many games where i've been deadlocked w/ Esc. but I generally support the idea as viable, and making sense. Why because Esc. starts as (4,6,8,10,12,15,20,25,30...)where it starts to climb. If I remember correctly the spoils w/ said board only reach maybe 45-65? They augmented the amount of troops received per spoils cashed, because I'm sure that either A. Its just easier to go by 5's. B. They realized the need for higher spoils mid-endgame.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:19 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
chapcrap wrote:So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?


Nobody has opposed the scale from the OP.

Well, natty_dread suggested not starting the escalation until 100, but I'm still comfortable with starting at 50.

Metsfanmax wrote:The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?

I would go by scientific rules of rounding as a personal preference, but common rules of rounding would be okay if that's easier to program.

50
55
60
66
73
80
88
97
105
116
128
141
155
160
176
193
212
233
256
282
310
341
375
412
453
498
548
603
663

(I did those manually so I round off in each step. However, you could in theory let the computer carry whatever number of decimals behind the scenes and get more precise results.)
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Fazeem on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:42 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
chapcrap wrote:So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?


Nobody has opposed the scale from the OP.

Well, natty_dread suggested not starting the escalation until 100, but I'm still comfortable with starting at 50.

Metsfanmax wrote:The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?

I would go by scientific rules of rounding as a personal preference, but common rules of rounding would be okay if that's easier to program.

50
55
60
66
73
80
88
97
105
116
128
141
155
160
176
193
212
233
256
282
310
341
375
412
453
498
548
603
663

(I did those manually so I round off in each step. However, you could in theory let the computer carry whatever number of decimals behind the scenes and get more precise results.)

sounds like a winner to me
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:23 am

This will make the most epic Colliseum games.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby HardAttack on Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:39 am

DoomYoshi wrote:This will make the most epic Colliseum games.


good point,
however collesium map is not even a map in play except certain events;
also, given map examples not more than 10...

once we consider it we have got bit less than 250 maps, if we should set a rule be well fit with 10 maps then isnt it we are a bit of down pushing and ignoring remaining maps, and its possible downside effects over remaining maps ?

maybe, this new escalation should be preferable settings while we keep the conventional escalation still be an option.
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Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Donelladan on Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:54 am

If it start when a set is 100 troops I dont see any problem by replacing the normal escalating setting. Could you give one HA?
I dont think I ever played a game that wasnt a stalemate where spoils reach 100. Or only end of the game maybe but then it doesnt matter :)
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Major Donelladan
 
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