[GP/UI] Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Suggestions that have made it through the grind, and have become integrated into the site!

Moderators: Suggestions Team, Global Moderators

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:48 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
maxfaraday wrote:
betiko wrote:I like the idea. If an escalating reaches 100 cash it s not normal and it s been stalling for a few rounds. It does need a fix.


There's already one. It's called "round limit".


Sure, but the whole point of escalating is that it is not supposed to drag on forever (and usually it does not). Round Limit games are very useful for options like No Spoils, where there's no easy way out of a deadlock. If an escalating game results in frequent deadlocks, then the setting isn't working properly.


Round Limit games are also a completely different setting. In a regular game, you play to eliminate your opponents which involves attacking. In a round limit game, every attack you make lowers your chance of victory. They are totally different games and seriously need an overhaul, but that's a different story.
show
User avatar
Lieutenant DoomYoshi
Entertainment Contributor
Entertainment Contributor
 
Posts: 4220
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Termina Field
Medals: 73
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (8) Clan Achievement (16)
Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (5)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby chapcrap on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:51 am

So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?
Image
User avatar
Captain chapcrap
 
Posts: 9581
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:46 am
Location: Kansas City
Medals: 168
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (31)
General Achievement (16) Clan Achievement (17) Training Achievement (6) Challenge Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (34)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:46 pm

chapcrap wrote:So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?


Nobody has opposed the scale from the OP.
show
User avatar
Lieutenant DoomYoshi
Entertainment Contributor
Entertainment Contributor
 
Posts: 4220
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Termina Field
Medals: 73
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (8) Clan Achievement (16)
Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (5)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:07 pm

The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4253
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby rishaed on Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:17 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?

Have the code use the general rounding system (ie. Everything above .5 goes up, while everything below goes down?) Either that or just round it up. (Ie. Use his system however have a limiter which restricts it to integers).
Otherwise, I haven't played many games where i've been deadlocked w/ Esc. but I generally support the idea as viable, and making sense. Why because Esc. starts as (4,6,8,10,12,15,20,25,30...)where it starts to climb. If I remember correctly the spoils w/ said board only reach maybe 45-65? They augmented the amount of troops received per spoils cashed, because I'm sure that either A. Its just easier to go by 5's. B. They realized the need for higher spoils mid-endgame.
aage wrote: Maybe you're right, but since we receive no handlebars from the mod I think we should get some ourselves.

Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class rishaed
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:54 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Foundry forums looking for whats going on!
Medals: 17
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (4)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:19 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
chapcrap wrote:So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?


Nobody has opposed the scale from the OP.

Well, natty_dread suggested not starting the escalation until 100, but I'm still comfortable with starting at 50.

Metsfanmax wrote:The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?

I would go by scientific rules of rounding as a personal preference, but common rules of rounding would be okay if that's easier to program.

50
55
60
66
73
80
88
97
105
116
128
141
155
160
176
193
212
233
256
282
310
341
375
412
453
498
548
603
663

(I did those manually so I round off in each step. However, you could in theory let the computer carry whatever number of decimals behind the scenes and get more precise results.)
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 11494
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 136
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (19)
General Achievement (15) Clan Achievement (9) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (5) Tournament Contribution (31)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Fazeem on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:42 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
chapcrap wrote:So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?


Nobody has opposed the scale from the OP.

Well, natty_dread suggested not starting the escalation until 100, but I'm still comfortable with starting at 50.

Metsfanmax wrote:The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?

I would go by scientific rules of rounding as a personal preference, but common rules of rounding would be okay if that's easier to program.

50
55
60
66
73
80
88
97
105
116
128
141
155
160
176
193
212
233
256
282
310
341
375
412
453
498
548
603
663

(I did those manually so I round off in each step. However, you could in theory let the computer carry whatever number of decimals behind the scenes and get more precise results.)

sounds like a winner to me
User avatar
Lieutenant Fazeem
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:38 pm
Medals: 24
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:23 am

This will make the most epic Colliseum games.
show
User avatar
Lieutenant DoomYoshi
Entertainment Contributor
Entertainment Contributor
 
Posts: 4220
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Termina Field
Medals: 73
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (8) Clan Achievement (16)
Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (5)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby HardAttack on Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:39 am

DoomYoshi wrote:This will make the most epic Colliseum games.


good point,
however collesium map is not even a map in play except certain events;
also, given map examples not more than 10...

once we consider it we have got bit less than 250 maps, if we should set a rule be well fit with 10 maps then isnt it we are a bit of down pushing and ignoring remaining maps, and its possible downside effects over remaining maps ?

maybe, this new escalation should be preferable settings while we keep the conventional escalation still be an option.

MAGE, COUNTER ATTACK ME PLS. :)))
User avatar
Colonel HardAttack
 
Posts: 1523
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:15 pm
Medals: 79
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (4)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (4) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7) General Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (12) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (1)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby Donelladan on Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:54 am

If it start when a set is 100 troops I dont see any problem by replacing the normal escalating setting. Could you give one HA?
I dont think I ever played a game that wasnt a stalemate where spoils reach 100. Or only end of the game maybe but then it doesnt matter :)
Click image to enlarge.
image
User avatar
Brigadier Donelladan
 
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:48 am
Medals: 89
Monthly Leader Silver (1) Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3)
Terminator Achievement (3) Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (2)
Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2)
Random Map Achievement (3) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (16)
General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (14) Challenge Achievement (2)

Re: Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:52 pm

MERGED Dukasaur's topic with a significantly older topic, and stickied. This has a lot of potential.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4253
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby Eddygp on Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:20 am

This idea is very important, because it will only affect at the issue and won't change gameplay in any other way throughout the games, turning it into a very interesting feature to implement.
Nothing will come of nothing.
The next image is a sofilorry, or an absolutely indifferent sofilorry who ensofilorriates and rabbits eat elephants.
Image
User avatar
Private Eddygp
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:42 am
Location: Yes.
Medals: 5
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils

Postby zimmah on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:09 am

Dukasaur wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
chapcrap wrote:So, is their a concensus about what the new scale would like?


Nobody has opposed the scale from the OP.

Well, natty_dread suggested not starting the escalation until 100, but I'm still comfortable with starting at 50.

Metsfanmax wrote:The scale from the OP needs to be refined slightly because we will quickly get into fractional troop values. Do we round down? Round up? Or can you construct a system that has no fractional troop values?

I would go by scientific rules of rounding as a personal preference, but common rules of rounding would be okay if that's easier to program.

50
55
60
66
73
80
88
97
105
116
128
141
155
160
176
193
212
233
256
282
310
341
375
412
453
498
548
603
663

(I did those manually so I round off in each step. However, you could in theory let the computer carry whatever number of decimals behind the scenes and get more precise results.)


Rounding at each step is probably better than to carry on the fractions.

However you made a mistake after 155.

It should be 155->171
Image
owenshooter wrote:i disagree with you and i'm right!

Een van de Veroveraars der Lage Landen
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class zimmah
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: VDLL
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (4) Map Contribution (4)

Re: Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby MagnusGreeol on Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:49 am

Love the idea of increasing esc. spoils,, I'd say 10 more after 50 then whatever is decided-- Love it!!
User avatar
Major MagnusGreeol
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:39 pm
Location: BOSTONIA
Medals: 25
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)

Re: Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:19 am

I am having a problem with this suggestion.

@Dukasaur: can you upgrade your scale to start at 100. If we start messing with people`s escalating numbers, there is going to be a backlash. This suggestion does not qualify as distinct enough to be a new Spoils, so it really should replace the current ones. By the time a game reaches 100, most games are not playing, but I know many go between 50-100.

@someone who devs: how will this affect ongoing escalating games when this changes over? This isn`t like breaking Conquer 500 where you can just fix everything.
e.g. The player A spoil is 500. Under the new system, player b gets 1400. How do we prevent that? I am thinking that all new games will be created under a spoil called escalating, but the old system will stick around until all those games are ended. Does this work?
show
User avatar
Lieutenant DoomYoshi
Entertainment Contributor
Entertainment Contributor
 
Posts: 4220
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Termina Field
Medals: 73
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (8) Clan Achievement (16)
Tournament Contribution (6) General Contribution (5)

Re: Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:43 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:MERGED Dukasaur's topic with a significantly older topic, and stickied. This has a lot of potential.

Thank you. Unfortunately, the BB software is pretty inflexible and puts the oldest post first, which in this case unfortunately contains an inferior version of this suggestion. We've found out now from experience that BW will only look at the first post to determine what the suggestion is. Have you guys planned a way around this?

DoomYoshi wrote:@Dukasaur: can you upgrade your scale to start at 100. If we start messing with people`s escalating numbers, there is going to be a backlash. This suggestion does not qualify as distinct enough to be a new Spoils, so it really should replace the current ones. By the time a game reaches 100, most games are not playing, but I know many go between 50-100.

Ok, start at 100. I don't have a problem with that if it leads to greater acceptance.

Anyway, I don't have any programming stuff any more, but if someone has a QBasic compiler and can run the table for me, it's really simple.


LET c=100
DO WHILE c<1000
PRINT c
c=CINT(c*1.1)
END DO
Last edited by Dukasaur on Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 11494
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 136
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (19)
General Achievement (15) Clan Achievement (9) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (5) Tournament Contribution (31)

Re: Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby chapcrap on Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:02 am

Dukasaur wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:MERGED Dukasaur's topic with a significantly older topic, and stickied. This has a lot of potential.

Thank you. Unfortunately, the BB software is pretty inflexible and puts the oldest post first, which in this case unfortunately contains an inferior version of this suggestion. We've found out now from experience that BW will only look at the first post to determine what the suggestion is. Have you guys planned a way around this?

We'll have to take care of the first post or give the first post to you... I would actually prefer the latter on situations like this so that the person who is involved with the suggestion currently can receive credit for it and keep it up to date themselves. In honesty, there are probably too many for the mods to keep every one of them perfectly up to date. That being said, I've updated the OP.
Image
User avatar
Captain chapcrap
 
Posts: 9581
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:46 am
Location: Kansas City
Medals: 168
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (31)
General Achievement (16) Clan Achievement (17) Training Achievement (6) Challenge Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (34)

Re: Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby jiminski on Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:26 am

chapcrap wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:MERGED Dukasaur's topic with a significantly older topic, and stickied. This has a lot of potential.

Thank you. Unfortunately, the BB software is pretty inflexible and puts the oldest post first, which in this case unfortunately contains an inferior version of this suggestion. We've found out now from experience that BW will only look at the first post to determine what the suggestion is. Have you guys planned a way around this?

We'll have to take care of the first post or give the first post to you... I would actually prefer the latter on situations like this so that the person who is involved with the suggestion currently can receive credit for it and keep it up to date themselves. In honesty, there are probably too many for the mods to keep every one of them perfectly up to date. That being said, I've updated the OP.


I can understand Dakas's ire (though do not agree completely that it's an inferior version to what was developed in the original .. it's virtually identical but no need to fight) and, as most of the original contributors died of natural causes a few years back, it makes sense that the 'original poster' is alive to husband the front page of the thread .. (the use of "hyperbolic" is damn good marketing too ;) )
NB. Perhaps, and this will definitely not be me as i haven't many years left :)... Perhaps, someone can make a separate Suggestion that: "Suggestions can not take longer than the average lifespan of a human being to initiate"?
Image
User avatar
Major jiminski
 
Posts: 5416
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:30 pm
Location: London
Medals: 29
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (2)

Re: Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:58 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:MERGED Dukasaur's topic with a significantly older topic, and stickied. This has a lot of potential.

Thank you. Unfortunately, the BB software is pretty inflexible and puts the oldest post first, which in this case unfortunately contains an inferior version of this suggestion. We've found out now from experience that BW will only look at the first post to determine what the suggestion is. Have you guys planned a way around this?


Yes, it's our policy now to make sure the OP contains the consensus version of the Suggestion before it's submitted. Therefore this would have happened eventually, but thanks to chap for taking care of it.
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4253
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: [GP/UI] Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:34 pm

I am still at a loss here. How is having spoils increase after 100 going to stop stalemates? And are stalemates now an unaccepted part of the game? Players have always found ways round stalemates before, even Dukasaur in the OP has said in a game he was stalemated in got resolved.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class koontz1973
 
Posts: 7538
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:57 am
Medals: 117
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Map Contribution (12)
Tournament Contribution (31) General Contribution (10)

Re: [GP/UI] Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:33 am

koontz1973 wrote:I am still at a loss here. How is having spoils increase after 100 going to stop stalemates? And are stalemates now an unaccepted part of the game? Players have always found ways round stalemates before, even Dukasaur in the OP has said in a game he was stalemated in got resolved.

Let me try to cover all those points.

How is having spoils increase after 100 going to stop stalemates?
Won't stop them, entirely. It should reduce them. At present, there is a window of opportunity, when the size of the cash is roughly comparable to the size of armies on the board, for escalating sweeps. One of the SoC training documents states that kills usually start happening when the size of the cash is approximately equal to 50% of the weakest player's troops. On the Classic map, and most maps of that size and bonus structure, that typically is when the size of the cash is somewhere from 15 to 25, and the size of the weakest player's army is somewhere between 20 and 30.

From then on, for a few turns the cash continues to outpace the growth of armies. If the killing didn't start when the cash was 20, it might start when it's 40, or 50. However, if that window of opportunity is missed, you get to a plateau where the size of the cash starts losing ground against the size of existing armies. If the cash gets to 75 and nobody has started the killing, then it probably means that everybody has now cashed a few times and the size of the typical player's army is somewhere in the 150-200 range. From here on in, instead of the cash getting larger relative to the armies on the board, it is getting smaller. By the time the cash is in the 100s you may find that there are armies of several hundred sitting around.

When the cash is not large enough that someone can plausibly score a kill and re-cash for enough to replenish his losses, he naturally is reluctant to go for a kill, because in killing someone else, the player will weaken himself out of contention. The longer the game goes on, the greater this tendency is, and it is increased by several factors:
  1. Today's larger maps make scoring a kill harder than the old 42's.
  2. Complex, generous bonus structures make mean that the size of armies increases faster and outpaces the cash sooner, and
  3. Fog-of-war makes people hesitant to pull the trigger because they're not quite sure what they will find.
My intention is to make sure that the plateau is never reached, that the size of the cash continues to increase as fast as the growth of armies on the board.

And are stalemates now an unaccepted part of the game?
I guess we will all have a different opinion of how bad things have to be before we call them unacceptable. Stalemates in escalating games are not common, but they do occur. It's happened to me maybe three or four times in the 3200 escalating games that I've played. "Wow, one in a thousand, that's pretty rare!" you might say, but the frustration of being in those games is extreme, and even if they are only one in a thousand it's some pretty bad memories that really poisoned my CC experience for months at a time.

What has been even more frustrating for me has been not only the games that I've played in, but the games that I've overseen as a tournament organiser. When a tournament is put behind schedule because of a game that won't end, it creates a ripple effect. Other people get bored, quit, don't renew their premium, etc., and that one game can make a big mess in the tournament schedule.

"Use round limits" is most people's answer, but I'm sure you've noticed that round limits come with their own pitfalls. Halfway to the round limit if the game hasn't been won, people stop looking for kills and start stacking in preparation for a round limit victory. These games are crushingly dull, and although not technically stalemates they are "almost stale" or "temporarily stale."

Avoiding stalemates was the main reason why the original board game switched from flat rate to escalating, and for the most part it works well on classic-style 42-tert sunny games. But larger maps, more available bonuses, and fog, have all contributed to making the existing escalation inadequate for the job. My bigger, badder Hyperbolic Escalating Spoils are needed.

Players have always found ways round stalemates before, even Dukasaur in the OP has said in a game he was stalemated in got resolved.
Nothing is forever. Even the Sun and the Moon will one day cease to be, and so it goes with games on Conquer Club. Players eventually give up, deadbeat or suicide or resort to breaking the rules and engaging in secret diplomacy. The games do end, but in sad and unsatisfactory ways. It would be far preferable to make them end as they should, with blazing-hot end-game battles!
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 11494
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 136
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (19)
General Achievement (15) Clan Achievement (9) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (5) Tournament Contribution (31)

Re: [GP/UI] Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:36 am

Dukasaur wrote:"Use round limits" is most people's answer, but I'm sure you've noticed that round limits come with their own pitfalls. Halfway to the round limit if the game hasn't been won, people stop looking for kills and start stacking in preparation for a round limit victory. These games are crushingly dull, and although not technically stalemates they are "almost stale" or "temporarily stale."


I want to emphasize this specifically. Round limits are not a solution to escalating stalemates, they are a band-aid (and one that arguably just shifts the problem).
User avatar
Lieutenant Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 4253
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: NY
Medals: 43
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (2)
General Contribution (7)

Re: [GP/UI] Increase Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:29 am

So here is the crux of the problem for me with this. I understand the logic behind needing to cash, for 200 troops you have to lose 400. If you hit a stack of 400, you need the cash to be 401 to make it worth the kill. So how does this suggestion make this happen. For what I see, it makes the spoils go up faster, but not really fast enough to negate the problem. If players are stacking for a long game, they are already doing this at 30/40/50 spoils. Waiting for the spoils to hit 100 is too late for this. But earlier it is too early. Many times I hit 85/90 card sets in esc games. More so now with 12 players as the first round of cash sets hits 55 and the second set hits 115 (all players cash twice).

You also get the problem of players stacking with a set of cards waiting for the next larger set.

How often does this happen in esc games?
Does this happen more in no spoils and flat games?

Players have ways round this, it may not be the best solution to the problem but adding this to the mix at 100 would probably not solve the problem at all. It would just make some play slightly differently like round limit games.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class koontz1973
 
Posts: 7538
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:57 am
Medals: 117
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Map Contribution (12)
Tournament Contribution (31) General Contribution (10)

Re: Increasing army cash in escalating when 100+

Postby jiminski on Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:28 am

jiminski wrote:
DiM wrote:i agree with the 100 cash value as a start and i especially agree with the non-linear increase....

or perhaps an even steeper increase
100
100+20
120+40
160+80
240+160
400+320
720+640
etc. this would definitelly put an end to stalemates in escalating games
and for anybody that thinks stalemates in escalating is impossible look at Game 1432626. it's horrible :(


yeap! it certainly would stop the stalemate!

And yes Stalemate games are pretty frequent in Esc, this one would have gone on forever if we had not negotiated an end : Game 949774

this one we are hoping for a death in the family a joke in poor taste as negotiations are complex (and i do not much like negotiating an end.. they do a disservice to the game): Game 1779532



this feels like a necropost but it is in this same thread... Though not as part of the later 'hyperbolic' suggestion, it's part of the "original original" within the discussion... Now i'm not saying that it's perfect but i think that the above scale of increase from DiM would solve the issue just mentioned by koontz..( I am sure Dukas has his own answer too ;) )

Personally i think that 50 is too early as many high level games don't get moving until that point... by 100 the game is often too far gone for a natural, logical end. Hence the need for a very large increase doubling each time, as shown above. An end is certain and quick. No suicide necessary, no double dealing, an end which everyone knows the rules for and can incorporate within their strategy.

Perhaps we can give control of the first page to Dukas who can hybridise the ideas, improving to a composite idea based upon discussion etc, as would happen in a better tended single, continuous, thread suggestion?

If Dukas would commit to trying to include some elements of both (perhaps hold votes to determine details at each stage as do the Cartographers?) then you could archive the original, place a link to it in the first post and keep this as a living Suggestion rather than a zombie-idea.
Image
User avatar
Major jiminski
 
Posts: 5416
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:30 pm
Location: London
Medals: 29
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (2)

Escalating Spoils to Avoid Stalemates

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:32 am

Here's what the numbers look like. The first column (black) is the existing progression. The second column (blue) is my original proposal. The third column (red) is modifying the proposal to start at 100 rather than at 50. The last two columns are run using 20% and 50% escalations. I think those are grossly excessive, and am including them only for comparison.



50 50 50 50 50
55 55 55 55 55
60 61 60 60 60
65 67 65 65 65
70 74 70 70 70
75 81 75 75 75
80 89 80 80 80
85 98 85 85 85
90 108 90 90 90
95 119 95 95 95
100 131 100 100 100
105 144 110 120 150
110 158 121 144 225
115 174 133 173 338
120 191 146 208 507
125 210 161 250 761
130 231 177 300 1142
135 254 195 360 1713
140 279 215 432 2570
145 307 237 518 3855
150 338 261 622 5783
155 372 287 746 8675
160 409 316 895 13013
165 450 348 1074 19520
170 495 383 1289 29280
175 545 421 1547 43920
180 600 463 1856 65880
185 660 509 2227 98820
190 726 560 2672 148230
195 799 616 3206 222345
200 879 678 3847 333518
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 11494
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 136
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (19)
General Achievement (15) Clan Achievement (9) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (5) Tournament Contribution (31)

PreviousNext

Return to Implemented Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Login